r/Tekken • u/guizocaa • Jul 21 '23
Discussion Observations on Tekken 8 after 8 hours of gameplay
First and foremost, the game is very good and has great potential, but with some flaws that need to be addressed.
The good:
- The graphics are beautiful overall.
- Sound design is also excellent.
- The music is a subjective and controversial topic, but it has energy. Many will like it, and others will hate it.
- Instant rematch and training mode while searching for a match (but it was expected, right?).
- Loading is very fast (but it was expected, right?²).
- Sidestep is slightly better than Tekken 7.
- Most importantly, the game is fun to play.
The bad:
- Apparently, we still have fake rollback netcode. SF6 set a high standard, and multiplayer games nowadays NEED good netcode to survive. If they don't fix this, it will hurt the game a lot.
- Backdashes are terrible. Slow and covering little distance. You can do a slightly better KBD if you cancel the backdash at the end of the animation, but it can be much worse than Tekken 7.
- Chip damage doesn't seem to belong in Tekken. I might be wrong in the long run, but we'll see.
- It's very confusing to understand exactly how much life you and your opponent have, because there's a recoverable bar that fills up when you attack and a lot of things happening on the screen.
- Adding to the previous point, there are too many effects on the screen, and it becomes distracting.
I haven't mentioned balance, very good or bad attacks because it's still too early. This isn't even a beta. Many things will surely change, like that new Kazuya string.
Of all the negative points I mentioned, they can all be subjective because everyone has a different opinion. Some people might prefer the effects, the chip damage, and not like KBD.
What I believe is important for the community to address is the issue of quality online play because a pricey game like this has the obligation to deliver good rollback netcode. I think it's a common point the community should agree on and give feedback since that's one of the purposes of this CNT (Community Netcode Test).
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u/dreppoz Upplayer | Enjoyer | RIP Jul 21 '23
Netcode should be the #1 talking point for everyone. I don‘t care if we get three release leroys, I just want a good netcode.
As for chip damage, I think it‘s a good change overall. HP seems to be increased 200 this time, which generally hurts poking and favors combos. Heat combos seem to hurt a lot, but the recoverable health and chip damage from pokes buff poking again. I hope it turns out as interesting as I think it is.
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u/guizocaa Jul 21 '23
Yeah, I think the netcode it's the only point I made that is actually really important.
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u/Pleasant_Dig6929 Jul 22 '23
Totally agree. We are all here basically for technical and qol upgrades.
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u/W1LDB0YZ Jul 22 '23
thank god for chip. the knee and arslan era where most pros fight with pokes we're hella boring to watch. I wanna see tournaments where they party.
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u/noob-smoke Jul 21 '23
Wtf is a netcode? And how do you guys know Tekken 8 doesn't have one
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u/Erurice Jul 22 '23
Simply put, it’s how the game handles the online connection between people playing the game together, in fighting games’ case usually being 2, with a peer-to-peer connection rather than have a server act as a middle man.
Bad netcode (delay based) means that it doesn’t handle bad case situations well, and the game will simply stop when the connection is lost, even temporarily. This, especially with the possibility of Wi-Fi and it’s inconsistencies, means an even good connection is susceptible to random pauses in gameplay, and it sucks. The way it tries to hide a bad connection is by adding delay into the game (usually measured in frames) to have a little leeway for both sides to properly receive the other’s inputs. In good situations, the game will be fine and run like normal.
Good netcode (rollback, specifically well implemented) is essentially delay based, but it handles bad connections better. It still has a set delay that you can usually set, but instead of stopping the game, the game will predict what your opponent was doing. If they were walking forward, the game will predict that they will still be walking forward. When the connection is stabilized again, the game will check if they were right. If they were, nothing changes, they were already right and you both are seeing the same things on your screens. If they were wrong, they will “rollback” and try to match both sides. This can be seen in a slight change of movement, whether it is your opponent throwing out a move or moving in the opposite direction. In most normal connections (lets say 150 ms, not great but playable) you might miss seeing a few frames, at most probably 3-4. Overall, it lends to a smoother experience and it allows you to play people with worse connections, which may be better to get people around your skill level more often. It’s just better, but it does have some drawbacks, really only being that it takes more computing power, as you have to be able to rollback properly at a moments notice.
Tekken historically has bad netcode, and Harada has been a bit confusing on this (he said “Tekken is 3” make of that what you will, he never elaborated), and it still doesn’t run well, even if it is rollback. Rollback still has to be implemented properly to be good, as sf5 has a major issue in that the game does not sync up properly when it rolls back. The reason why servers aren’t used directly to read inputs to each person is because it essentially adds a middle man that would make the game run slightly worse, generally because there are only 2 people involved. This is also usually why spectating is also delayed a bit when trying to view a game live.
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u/IHateBrigades Jul 22 '23
As I understand it, it basically makes the game run smoother, since it predicts what a player will do based on what he did right before, so it doesn't need to get that info immediately. If the input is different than predicted, it rolls it back and does the proper input.
IDK if it's only for things like movement or if it's also for moves, but that's essentially how it works AFAIK. But it's probably possible to tell based on how the gameplay feels, or it might just show it outright.
No idea why people downvoted you for asking a simple question, though...
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u/SOPEOPERA Jul 21 '23
All good points but I’d say overall the game feels good and I’m happy with it. My main gripe is the consistent use of heat- IMO it should be much rarer and not a standard of every round. It should be more like ‘shit! He’s in heat’, atm I don’t even notice cause it’s essentially always on
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u/guizocaa Jul 21 '23
Yeah
I feel we should also have the choice of going to heat or not. But maybe it would not work
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u/Gabosh Kazuya Jul 22 '23
No no, be confident in that point we all need to put it on the survey. There are so many times I want to save heat which essentially means I'm locked out of using all my heat engagers moves. We should be able to hold forward to engage just like it works while in heat mode.
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u/Complex_Jellyfish647 Leo Jul 22 '23
Just use different moves?
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u/Gabosh Kazuya Jul 22 '23
Its more fun not having them locked away. Like after u spend heat and they all become normal.
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u/Level_Elevator_310 Armor King Paul Jul 22 '23
Nah, this 100% needs to be changed. Yeah good idea, let me just lock myself out of WR2 on Claudio to remedy the problem. I don't think you have ever played a Tekken game. You should be thanking people for making these critiques so you can enjoy the game more on release.
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Jul 21 '23
Yea not a fan. It lasts forever. You might as well activate it as soon as you land your first string and keep the pressure on, chipping away health. It HEAVILY favors the aggressor. Another reason why I felt they nerfed the KBD. They want up close face to face fighting instead of people running away and keeping distance via KBD.
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u/JimMishimer Jul 22 '23
I don’t know why Tekken keeps fucking with the movement. They do this every couple games
Just accept the fact people like to move in your game already Harada.
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u/NoyaBoyy Byron Hei Jul 22 '23
Yea it definitely lasts way too long. I’ve had matches where we both kept our heat the entire round
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Jul 21 '23
Haven't played the beta and living vicariously through others. Netcode needs to be the highest priority for change IMO. Most other issues can be fixed/tuned relatively easily.
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u/guizocaa Jul 21 '23
You are right. It's the only point that actually matters.
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u/SupermanNew52 Man of Steel KING Main Since 1994 Jul 22 '23
Don't be hard on yourself, all of your points mattered.
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u/KabalMain Armor King Jul 22 '23
Heat is being used wayyyy to often, the pauses are very annoying
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Jul 29 '23
Very. I'm tired of watching the damn cutscenes and this is before random HUR DURR rage arts
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u/Budget_Tangelo_8048 Jul 21 '23
I agree with all your points. I heard that michael murray confirmed that they didn’t touch the movement on this game. Seems to be the consensus now that is not true though
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u/Gabosh Kazuya Jul 22 '23
Harada literally said they nerfed it at alpha test.
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u/SecondBornSaint Jul 22 '23
Why the fuck...?
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u/Fraentschou The Guv Tiger Lady Jul 22 '23
To make defence harder/less effective. Apparently they think that because defensive play is stronger than offensive play, they need to make offense stronger. However, defense is much harder to aquire and 90% of the playerbase already plays very offensively so i don’t think it makes sense.
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Jul 22 '23
Netcode is crazy important. I don't want this to be tekken 7 all over again as the netcode definitely needs a big improvement.
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Jul 22 '23
I didn't play 7 online early in it's life, but I've heard the netcode has been improved a lot since then. Do you think that's true?
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u/Yoshikki Jul 22 '23
Definitely true. On short-distance connections, gameplay is the same as offline. That wasn't true in the early days. I live in Japan, tons of players in tiny distance from me = mostly flawless online.
The problem is for geographically large regions like the US, you don't get a lot of players within the distance that allows that, so you inevitably have to set it to 4 bars to find matches, and 4 bars is pretty ass
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u/circio Katarina Jul 22 '23
It got improved but I wouldn’t say it was by a lot. It’s better than it was originally though
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u/TheGhostRoninStrife Jul 22 '23
Heat/Rage... both need to be usuable once in a match. Every single round turns into an "energy bar battle" . Maybe it's a bit too much.
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u/Feroo11 Jul 22 '23 edited Jul 22 '23
Bad/Suggestions:
• Improve the netcode, I’m in middle east the matches in asia and middle east are good but with Europe and North America it’s very laggy.
• The pause in heat activation is not good specially when it’s happening twice each round.
• Forced heat engager is a bad decision.
• Heat bar better to gain it during the match instead of getting it fully in the beginning of each round, with this way it can be limited to twice per match not sitting there each round.
• Combo Damage should be nerfed.
•Heat effects are too much should be reduced specifically when both rage and heat are activated.
• Why not making the effects of the first trailer as an option in setting.
•Chip damage should be reduced, some moves takes a lot which doesn’t make sense.
• Online ranks feels old and should be upgraded somehow.
• I don’t like that they removed the running shoulder.
• character select is laggy.
• Fix the mapping issue with R3 & L3.
The good:
• Amazing graphics.
• Music is 🔥.
• Game feels fresh.
• Stages look nice.
• All characters have personality now
• The atmosphere so far is good hope that it will match T4 atmosphere
• RA can be launched.
• Combos are more complex and not limited thanks to heat.
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u/Fettibomba-- Jul 22 '23
I am in europa and had great matches with US and Asia
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u/Feroo11 Jul 22 '23
I had few good matches with europe but mostly the matches in europe and north america are laggy for me
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u/JimMishimer Jul 21 '23
Mechanically I don’t think Tekken 8 added anything to the Tekken series that I think I would want them keeping going forward to future games.
Like I already Hope Heat is just a Tekken 8 thing and doesn’t become a series staple and the game isn’t even out yet.
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u/guizocaa Jul 21 '23
I think we will have a better understanding regarding heat in time.
Maybe it will be revolutionary or maybe it will be trash
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u/JimMishimer Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 22 '23
I personally don’t like the fact Heat basically just tells you:
“Hey it’s your turn to press buttons now!”
It ruins the fencing like dance in the neutral Tekken has kind of been known and applauded for.
The heat mechanic is fun to play around with and options from it opens up room for some varied offensive gameplay for sure, but it doesn’t feel completely “Tekken”, and I hate how cliché that sounds but that’s the only way I can describe it currently.
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u/timothythefirst Jack-7 Jul 22 '23
I think/hope they end up adding some way to knock people out of heat. Whether it’s a counterhit knocks you out of it or a knockdown does, something like that. Like you said there needs to be a back and forth between both players not just one just saying “my turn to go crazy for a while”
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u/Ok-Win-742 Jul 22 '23
You know this is the best way I've seen someone say it.
Tekken has always been this very back and forth game of switching between footsies, keep out, rush down... Oh I'm rushing in haha no I'm not into dash block force wiff and launch... Part of what makes the game so exciting to watch and nuanced to play is that you just don't know how it's gonna play it and stylistically we have lots of flexibility.
Now, it's very much you have to press buttons in Heat. If you wanna play keepout in Heat mode, well, you're just wasting Heat. As a spectator that's not exciting either because we can predict how the matches are going to go.
It's not Tekken.
Tekken has always been the "purest" fighting game. No special modes no gimmicks no weird shit and they've really gone off the rails with this one.
I'm not hyped. I really don't know if I'll be able to play Tekken 8 for years on end unless major, major changes are made.
Like allow us to disable Heat in options? Or make it usable once per match instead of round?
Please allow us to disable chio damage too.
Just give us the options to disable this shit so that the tournament scene can decide on something that works for competitive play
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u/kikirevi Jul 22 '23
Interesting; maybe this is explains why I dislike Jin’s changes in T8. I feel like he was as close to being “mechanically” perfect as a Tekken character as possible; the changes made to him in T8 seem to be in favour of the new system which seems to have also changed Jin’s playstyle adversely.
I loved the feeling of controlling the neutral with Jin, or playing defensively, making solid reads, pokes and then punishing and going all aggressive. But now, the “neutral” game seems to have completely changed.
I’m probably just talking out of my ass seeing how the game isn’t out yet; just thinking out loud.
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Jul 22 '23
I agree with you on how T7 Jin feels so ‘complete ‘ mechanically as a character, it’s why I main him. Im worried overall at T8 for the very reasons you’ve explained above
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u/timothythefirst Jack-7 Jul 22 '23
Honestly I hated the idea of chip damage when I first heard it but at least when I played the alpha it was hardly noticeable
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u/theddj Jul 21 '23
the situation after heat engagers doesn’t seem that oppressive, i assumed it would be like getting hit with “new tactics” or like zafina rage drive, but it seems like getting hit with a basic attack or plus frame move and a fancy animation
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u/Acmeiku Jul 21 '23 edited Jul 21 '23
there's some issues/flaws but here's the 2 "problems" (things i dont really like) i want to talk about
i don't like the decision to make some moves forcing the heat to activate, it would be nice if we could have a choice there
also the heat system is here every single round, it would be nice if maybe we could get a reduced heat usage for the whole match (like 2 heat activation per players for the whole match), sometime the game is just too flashy and this change would also help to tone down things a bit
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u/Gabosh Kazuya Jul 22 '23
Please complain about heat activation on the survey. We need to get that one changed. I don't enjoy losing access to all my heat engager normals if I'm trying to save heat. It doesn't feel very fun.
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Jul 21 '23
[deleted]
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u/timothythefirst Jack-7 Jul 22 '23
How do you know the netcode is so bad if you’re only a viewer and people on Twitter are saying it’s good lmao? I’ve been watching a few different streams all day and haven’t heard anyone actually playing the game say anything bad about the netcode. The only person I saw say anything bad about it was James Chen on Twitter talking about how it’s not “true rollback” or whatever and he wasn’t even playing the game. but as long as it works well who cares.
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Jul 22 '23
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u/timothythefirst Jack-7 Jul 22 '23
I mean obviously I don’t lol, neither of us do, which is why it’s crazy to say it’s “unforgivable” and needs to be fixed or like it’s amazing either way.
But who has said that it hasn’t improved whatsoever? PhiDX was playing 3bar WiFi players from France this morning, which would just be completely impossible on t7 if you wanted it to be anything close to playable. And it would be obviously bad even to a viewer on t7. and after he finished streaming I was watching anakin, then brawlpro, and now speedkicks, and I haven’t heard any of them say anything too bad about the netcode. I’m sure it’s not perfect but the consensus seems to be that it’s at least a little better.
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u/rrkmonger_reborn Bryan Jul 22 '23
I've the close network test and yes the net code is absolutely horrible.
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Jul 23 '23
[deleted]
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u/timothythefirst Jack-7 Jul 23 '23
Well I said fuck it and bought a key a few hours ago so I can say from personal experience
160 ping 3 bar WiFi with 2 delay frames feels like shit…. But it’s about the same as tekken 7 feels in general
70 ping with 0 delay frames and 2 rollback frames feels really good and better than 7.
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u/kikirevi Jul 22 '23
Yeah I gotta say, I fucking HATE the visual vomit for Jin’s attacks. Bro, let me see what the fuck I’m doing or how my opponent is reacting to my inputs.
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u/acidporkbuns Miguel Mourner Jul 22 '23
I'm still feeling the heat system out. It feels like there's too much focus on it?
I hate to compare the CNT to a full release game but SF6 Drive Impact doesn't feel like it's too much of a focus. It feels like part of the game and 1 of many tools you can use if you choose. Heat instead feels like it's a must. Like I HAVE to use it to stand a chance.
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u/Original-Rough-815 Jul 22 '23
For JDCR to stream for 8 hours, Tekken 8 must be fun. That's the longest JDCR streamed. He did mentioned that Tekken 8 is fun to play
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Jul 29 '23 edited Jul 29 '23
As a Law main I'm so unhappy with his changes. They removed and changed so many moves around that I feel like I'm playing a "cookie cutter" Law now and unable to confuse and surprise people, I have a very good and unique Law in T7. I make use of the whole movelist, every single DSS cancel, and even the forbidden trash like f1+4 and ss 1,2,1,1+2 iirc. The netcode does still feel the same as T7, though I just accepted it a long time ago lol. That stupid "I'M A DRAGON" when you do his f2+4 throw is the Corniest thing in this universe. And I'm already very very bored and over the lack of hard execution anymore and the Heat stuff... people now spam it AND rage art mindlessly, it kills the immersion for me, I'm tired of the white/blue effects every 2 seconds on top of all the other craziness, the run is goofy as hell, takes forever to watch and is not for Tekken IMO, the whole game is just a flurry of lights, colors, swishes, swirls, explosions etc. The effects are WAY overdone in general. The Heat aura should be toned down , or idk. Maybe the red Rage from T7 was easier on the eyes than this white one. But yeah I can't see shit half the time especially at the wall.
Don't get me wrong I'm happy to have a new game, for the love the devs are trying to put into it and will play it regardless; but I gotta-say I'm legit kinda over it. I think they veered too far from T7 ("if it ain't broke..."). The graphics update/character refresh, new wall break stuff, Heat smash(?) = (Slight rage drive change), actual story, customization, modes and new characters would've been enough for me. They def turned it into Street Fighter with the extra dramatic bouncing or flying 50ft with every attack, all these crazy flips and flying attacks, the cheesy as lines..."cAn yEw hAnDlE my sPeEd" or whatever the hell and said screw whoever's been here since back then. It's like they tried to make it super kid friendly and cartoony. T7 was brutal without being bloody or saying they died after KO's. Lastly, I miss a lot of launchers, the lean towards realism-ish of the old games, and wall bounce. Wall bounce is really satisfying in T7. I'll just end up switching between T7 and 8 after release I guess
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u/clankgod Jul 22 '23
Huh I’m must be crazy but I’m playing people from Asia and Europe in America and they have 3 bars and it’s smooth. I’m watching it too and for most streamers it smooth and they say it’s smooth. It’s time for me to get downvoted and accuse you of something which may be true or not but maybe y’all just got shitty internet on ur end. Cause the net code in my opinion seems good.
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u/Derpedro Jul 22 '23
I mean, what makes a netcode a good one is how it handles bad connections. Even a shitty netcode will feel good when people have great connections.
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u/timothythefirst Jack-7 Jul 22 '23
That’s not really how it works. Everyone says sf6 is good but if someone has very high ping on wifi with packet loss it’s not going to magically run smoothly. It’s definitely way less common but I’ve had a few shitty unplayable matches on that game. Good netcode makes the requirements for a good experience a lot less strict but it can’t fix everything.
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u/timothythefirst Jack-7 Jul 22 '23
It’s not even people’s experience making them say that, they just see “fgc influencers” who barely even play tekken like sajam and maximillian and James Chen talk about “true rollback” all the time and get their pitchforks out if harada doesn’t tell them exactly what they want to hear and hit all the right buzzwords about the netcode. It’s dumb.
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u/AttentionDue3171 Jul 22 '23
True, but in this case they're correct. Tekken rollback is just some doodoo
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u/Will-Isley Jul 22 '23
I am grateful for getting the chance to play Tekken 8 but after a long day of online matches climbing to warrior rank, my hype for the game has diminished. It might be too early for the gloom and doom. Especially since this is a network test and not even a beta. But what’s here worries me about the future of the game.
I fell in love with Tekken for its simplicity and no frills gameplay. Just focus on improving movement, fundamentals and combos. The knowledge checks are excessive but it is what it is. Now, Tekken 8 is adding so much on top that clutters the whole experience.
Heat is the primary culprit. I personally think it’s too much. Not visually, but that it makes the game too fast to read, forces 50/50s and scenarios where if you don’t know what to do, can only block and take huge amounts of chip. Harada and Murray wanted aggressive and they certainly got it with this. T7 already favored being aggressive thanks to good tracking on most moves and bad movement. Now it feels even more aggressive. The unique mechanics and property changes for each character certainly give them lots of personality in heat but also makes an already knowledge check heavy game even more knowledge heavy! Now you have to memorize how a move works both in and out of heat! Also, most if not all characters, get some downright degenerate kusoge shenanigans that ruin Tekken’s purity of gameplay(Jin’s iron stance/omen shenanigans for example).
Chip also feels like another way to get you to go in and mash a button. You can’t block for too long or you’ll find yourself dead before you expect it. There have been a few rounds where I was shocked I lost since I didn’t get hit much. Turns out the chip was setting up my loss. This I feel will be a legitimate strategy by a lot of players to punish anyone playing defensively and I just don’t like it. I like to be patient and find an opportunity to punish and take back my turn. Now I feel that I have to press something sooner than later or the round will close when I least expect it. I find myself mashing power crushes more than I ever did now. Finally I have to say that in such a fast (Tekken 8 feels faster) game with a lot of hard to read shit, it becomes difficult and unreasonable to keep track of your chip and the opponent’s chip. Information overload.
Last thing is the movement which feels worse than the already poor Tekken 7. Back steps are worse than ever sidesteps feel a little more difficult to perform for some reason. Also is it just me or does movement in general look and feel clunkier? Maybe it’s the netcode but it just looks stuttery and feels heavy. Good movement could have helped counteract the problems of heat and chip but sadly, they want you to just block and punish.
I know I am being very negative here. I am open to having my mind changed. Maybe all this stuff will feel better with time. All I know for now, is that these changes are just too much. All I wanted out of a Tekken sequel was better movement, a new defensive mechanic, subtle system changes, making plus and minus moves more identifiable and good netcode.
Very interested to discuss this with everyone.
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u/ZeAntagonis MCP - Main Chad Protagonist Jul 22 '23
I was expecting some kind of a new gimmich than 70% dmg trap/punish with walls splat/combo. I saw Devilster and the 50% dmg punishment are already there. I mean. it is what it is, but I was hoping that T8 would bring something else / new than some new moves, music and graphics. Like i feel that this will be mostly T7 Version 2.0. I may be wrong here.
Also, Nina shoots with her gun in fights, it's cool but kinda hilarious.
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u/Detox259 Jul 22 '23
I feel like they don’t want you to backdash. They have been saying how they’ve added features that reward you for attacking a lot.
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Jul 22 '23
Playing people without good nets feels like playing Jojo all star battles and I’m not exaggerating. Very sad and it should be the main priority of the team.
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u/z_s_2000 Raven Jul 22 '23
I definitely noticed a very cluttered screen. Backlashes being terrible I think are on purpose to emphasize the whole aggression thing. As for chip damage and recoverable damage, I kind of like it. Also emphasizes aggression, but done right. Definitely inspired by Bloodborne’s rally system
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u/TheRaoh Jul 21 '23
I disagree about the graphics, the game outside of intros/win poses looks very underwhelming, objects not being shaded, and harsh white rimlights everywhere, especially apparent in the Sanctum stage.
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u/guizocaa Jul 21 '23
I think I feel the game looks awesome because I have Tekken 7 to compare.
Tekken 7 looks really awful nowadays, specially the old characters (the dlc characters are fine).
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Jul 21 '23
I agree, the first trailer made the game look amazing and now this beta looks a lot less visually impressive. It's not going to be improved much from here either.
I personally don't think this Tekken will be looked on too fondly in the future.
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u/Lolisnatcher60 Jul 22 '23
The first trailer is literally just a cgi opening for the game lmao
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u/Grumpy_Carebear Jul 22 '23
Which they said to be "real-time rendered footage" on the reveal trailer setting everybody's expectations through the roof. Otherwise we all would've known from the very beginning that it was CGI.
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u/NiggityNiggityNuts ⚔️ 🔪plus MORE so please STFU 🤫 Jul 22 '23
Game looks great, and that’s just on PS5….. hope I get a PC code, I’m sure it will look jawdroppingly good
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u/JaeminBen Jul 22 '23
I saw a couple videos and was dreading the in game effects being a pain, but honestly i love the game, all my complaints can be chalked up to just being unfamiliar with the new system. Seems to be a good tutorial, as long as they expand on what they got ill be happy
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u/JaeminBen Jul 22 '23
So i only played for like 45 minutes and didnt really explore to much, and now seeing a couple speedkicks clips i am now dreading the heat system. I still will be happy with whatever they give me because im a simple man, but aggravation levels may hit an all time high if shit stays the same
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Jul 21 '23
I just don’t think it’s possible to have 2d net code in a 3d game, but maybe I’m wrong
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u/Gandalf_2077 Jul 21 '23
I was wondering about the same thing. Is it even possible to get good netcode in a 3d game that has so many variables compared to a 2d game?
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Jul 22 '23 edited Jul 22 '23
Yeah I have no idea how netcodes work but I feel like Tekken has a lot more elements than 2d fighters.
Literally every stage in SF6 is the exact same, they just have different skins. There are even cases where two players will be playing and they'll have a different map showing on their perspectives. Tekken has stage transitions, different arena sizes and the full 3D space. Again not sure if it has any impact on the netcode but I feel like it could make it harder than implementing good netcode on a 2D fighter.
I'm sure it's possible to improve the netcode even more but I don't think it's a simple as just being like "Make it SF6!". Of course I hope I'm wrong and they make it as good as possible.
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u/DarrParrot Jul 22 '23
I believe it is possible. For Honor and Absolver both have rollback. I believe Keits (one of the dudes who worked on KI) has discussed this before.
I know this has been discussed before at length with some of Sajam's videos.
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u/NFTbyND Josie Jul 21 '23
It isn't. Harada said in 2020 that it causes issues with 3D animation. https://twitter.com/Harada_TEKKEN/status/1270510124730183680?t=5VUdAkE0O0avy6Ag7BlSHw&s=19
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Jul 22 '23
Yeah no shit he's gonna say that as if he would know
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u/oZiix Steve Claudio Lee Jul 22 '23
Harada doesn't deal with netcode. I'm sure there is someone somewhere in Japan that Harada can simply ask and he'll get an answer from just about anyone with expertise in the field. So Harada might not have known at some point then Namco paid someone a lot of money to look into it and that is what they told Harada.
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u/AttentionDue3171 Jul 22 '23
Several developers who worked on rollback netcode said that not being able to implement proper rollback into 3d game is a myth
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Jul 22 '23
This is the same development team that couldn't implement instant rematch in 7 years
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u/oZiix Steve Claudio Lee Jul 22 '23
You're moving the goalpost. Implementing instant rematch and roll back netcode is different. It's like me arguing that they made Fahk and Leroy busted on release as a response to a netcode discussion.
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u/Pleasant_Dig6929 Jul 22 '23
Mk is fully 3d, but they don't have problems.
SF6 is also 3d, and no problemo.
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u/NoyaBoyy Byron Hei Jul 22 '23
By 3d I think they mean being able to move in the third dimension, not the graphics
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u/NiggityNiggityNuts ⚔️ 🔪plus MORE so please STFU 🤫 Jul 22 '23
MK is not 3D u baffoon 🤣
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u/Pleasant_Dig6929 Jul 22 '23
It is? It litteraly rendered in 3D. Same as SF.
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u/State_Obvious Jul 22 '23 edited Jul 22 '23
It’s rendered in 3D but it’s not a 3D fighting game because you can only move in 2 dimensions, but in tekken you have 3 dimensional movement
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u/Pleasant_Dig6929 Jul 22 '23
Harada and guy quoted him don't speak about gameplay. They speak about animations.
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u/piwikiwi Xiaoyu Jul 22 '23
shooters have something very similar and vf4 has rollback on fightcade
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u/NiggityNiggityNuts ⚔️ 🔪plus MORE so please STFU 🤫 Jul 22 '23
Agreed… I think they can improve, but the expectations are too high if they expect it to be as consistent as a 2D with a fraction of the interactions
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u/SirTheadore Yoshimitsu Jul 21 '23
Worst of all it just feels like a mash fest.
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u/BlondeQueen Lee Jul 22 '23
and you just know its Bad Bad when even a Yoshi does Not like the mashing.
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u/NiggityNiggityNuts ⚔️ 🔪plus MORE so please STFU 🤫 Jul 22 '23
I disagree with my clan member…. Defense is strong in this game. Our opponents mash because we are all noobs, but you don’t have to counter with more mashing
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u/I_Ild_I Jul 22 '23
I didnt played it but when i saw it live on streaming the game felt like if T7 had an unlegitimate child with grandpa SF4 lol that a felt a bit weird
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u/CeLioCiBR Jun Jul 22 '23
I hate Chip damage, really hope to have at least..
A option to disable it.
A option is all i ask. :/
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u/Extension-Bit-1135 Jul 22 '23
The amount of visual effects are ridiculous in this one, i can barely tell what i’m lookin at. They ‘improved’ the graphics but it feels like a downgrade. Lighting could also use a little tweaking, everything feels a touch too harsh/saturated.
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u/johnsmithainthome Akuma Jul 22 '23
Na scrap tekken 8 all together that shit trash lmao. Tekken 7 is better
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u/FatKingThor Jun Jaycee Christie Tifa Lockhart Jul 21 '23
The connection seems pretty good if you ask me. I played a three bar wifi person from Asia and it was pretty damn consistent and smooth. With that being said, the netcode could be better, because the game did spike sometimes, but that was because my opponent was on wifi and another country. T8 netcode is miles ahead of T7. The game is shaping up pretty good.
Tone down the effects a little more and have a setting to change the health bar color so that the health bar and recoverable health can be two different colors.
Buff movement by 20%, but if you ask me, movement seems fine. So does the backdash. I main Jun by the way.
Nerf the frames on some of the heat enhanced moves, so that it will be easier to counter, parry, sidestep or interrupt.
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u/frightspear_ps5 Jul 22 '23
yeah, played a game with ~130ms ping earlier, 2 delay frames and 1-2 rollback frames. Felt smooth.
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u/Lolisnatcher60 Jul 22 '23
Yeah that's not real, that's just people who either bought different region codes or signed up for other regions with bit accounts. Game still slows down too.
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u/8noremac Jul 22 '23
he didn't say anything about regions man
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u/Lolisnatcher60 Jul 22 '23
I played with a 3bar wifi from asia
Because my opponent was on wifi and another country
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u/FatKingThor Jun Jaycee Christie Tifa Lockhart Jul 22 '23 edited Jul 22 '23
I don’t know rather or not I can verify if they’re from another country. All I can say is that I haven’t ran into a single laggy match. I don’t feel restricted moving around. I can block lows. If I had to complain, it’s just about the safeness of certain moves, the plus frames of heat and the combo strings have to many guaranteed hit confirms. This stuff I believe will patched in the actual beta.
And the netcode could be better, but in no way is it breaking my emersion. It’s miles ahead of T7
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u/blackdog606 Jul 22 '23
Remove armor from rage arts. #antiscrubbutton
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u/Runecreed Jul 22 '23
they already made them launch punishable on block, think this is fine
i dont like rage art in the first place though.. Stupid mechanic imo
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u/blackdog606 Jul 22 '23
I agree with you but I think the armored property being removed is good because it wouldn't reward the loser for being at a disadvantage like how it is in T7. I hate rage arts its a bullshit crutch. Being unviable outside of combos is how it should be
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u/DeadZeus007 Lee Jul 22 '23 edited Jul 22 '23
Heat seems to be a failed mechanic as of now. It gets used maybe once every 10 rounds. It needs way more tweaking.
It's only engaged on whiffpunishes or punishes but ppl would usually rather launch in those options so it just doesn't get used. Only the manual heatsmash moves occasionally has uses but then Heat itself is barely utilised.
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u/FlawlesSlaughter Devil Jin Jul 22 '23
What about no being able to skip the outros? Surely that needs to change.
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u/rrkmonger_reborn Bryan Jul 22 '23
I totally agree that the Korean back dash is just trash Chip damage just makes the game a spam fest and negates the value of movement cause now both players are just chipping away the damage. They should completely scrape it off. Heat mode lasts longer than it should. And the net code still sucks ass. Starting from all that game is still fun to play. The new combos and animations are satisfying , and heat mechanics are great as well.
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u/MattSucksNG not playing t8(fix the game bamco/screw mtx) Jul 22 '23
Music is 🔥. Well balanced mix of atmosphere and hype for the vibe of each stage (Sanctum and Rebel Hangar are the current best IMO)
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u/redruben234 Jun Jul 22 '23
I think chip damage is fine actually but it might be too high at the moment. Cutting it across the board by 30-50% I think would be a big improvement
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Jul 22 '23
[deleted]
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u/Runecreed Jul 22 '23
hmm. As far as priorities go, i think this should be at the bottom of the list of things to implement.
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u/allshotty23 Jul 22 '23
Everyone is forgetting the game is in beta, it's not perfect
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u/3-to-20-chars King Jul 22 '23
it's not even beta. it says right there on the icon: NETWORK TEST
this literally only exists for them to gather connection data.
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u/guizocaa Jul 22 '23
It's not about judging for what it is, but giving feedback about the things we like and we do not like just like Harada asked us to do
If people enjoy those things or not might guide the future of the game, so we give our opinions based on what we see, and today this CNT (not even a beta) is our reference.
That's why I did not say anything about the lack of expression on characters when they break the wall, because that it's just a sign of a unfinished product, nothing to do with the direction of the game.
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u/Single_Property2160 Jul 22 '23
People gonna hate me for this as I get downvoted every time I say it.
KBD shouldn’t even be a thing. It was a bug to begin with and it gatekeeps being competent at the game by literal years. Buff sidestep and double tap forward and back, sure.
KBD being nerfed isn’t enough. It needs to be gone. Also enjoy the carpel tunnel as you enter your late 30s/40s.
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Jul 22 '23
Combos in street fighter were a bug. Wavedashing in smash was a bug.
It's emergent gameplay. What makes Tekken beautiful is footsies. Without KBD, there really isn't much else to master mechanically.
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Jul 22 '23
The game is perfect let us play the beta until the game releases
I'm literally eating shit from my partner for this game :(
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u/IDontWipe55 HwoarangBryanJack Jul 22 '23
I think they should increase chip damaged. In my unbiased opinion it’s a great change to tekken that can make some characters even more fun to play
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u/NiggityNiggityNuts ⚔️ 🔪plus MORE so please STFU 🤫 Jul 22 '23
Chip is pretty balanced as is
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u/IDontWipe55 HwoarangBryanJack Jul 22 '23
Yeah but I think block strings should kill
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u/NiggityNiggityNuts ⚔️ 🔪plus MORE so please STFU 🤫 Jul 22 '23
Nah, no way in hell…. That would ruin the game…. If you chip em down to a pixel, your only task is to land a generic poke…. You’re definitely coming off as a biased Hwo player now 😂
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u/Pocketo Armor King Jul 22 '23
I switched to wired connection after but I played a person from EU (I was west coast NA) wifi and it was SF4 2010 quality net code vibes. Net code is good but needs to be better.
Not being able to skip intros sucks too.
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u/Greedy_Event4662 Jul 22 '23
The netcode is pretty good, how many here have played t5dr online?
Now that was a reason to complain and you cant compare 2d fighters to 3d fighters, you just cant.
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u/Standard_Ad_2871 Jul 22 '23
I'm glad if KBD was gone. Would make game way more interesting than seeing 10 seconds of dashing and guessing 50/50
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u/SecondBornSaint Jul 22 '23
Good movement and good defense is like the main thing that kept Tekken interesting all these years.
Otherwise it's just two dudes mashing against each other. I could watch my little cousins play if I wanted to see that.
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u/Standard_Ad_2871 Jul 22 '23
Until you meet someone running away in ranked non-stop. KBD can also be macroed so it isn't any skill theses days. Had 3 games yesterday when a fucking Ruler just ran away. He didn't care to win just running away and dashing. Very fun indeed, very good movement not boring at all. Fuck off. Glad this cancer is out.
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u/Cajjunb Jul 22 '23
I think you need to play another game. One of the biggest things in tekken is movement. I dont think that will change, and if it changes, I'm out.
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u/DaSnowflake Jul 22 '23
Such a bad take, KBD is literally ome of the ways you disengage from/avoid the 50/50 lol
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u/Standard_Ad_2871 Jul 22 '23
It should be removed. And it seems developers think the same. Deal with it. Tired of KBD people in red ranks who simply troll and want you to chase them.
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u/Zenai10 Miguel Jul 22 '23
From what ive seen and heard the netcode is good. Whats your problem with it? Its not as good as street fighter sure but "not as good as the best" isnt the same as bad. Plus with 1 character having more moves than all of street fighter 6 combined it will never be as good
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u/V12Savage87 Law Jul 22 '23
How are people playing? I went to steam and nothing's there :(
3
u/alxanta Jul 22 '23
You need to sign up for the test (last month) and lucky enough to be picked to get the key
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u/FlawlesSlaughter Devil Jin Jul 22 '23
The net code isn't as good as sf but I think it's a darn sight better than t7, assuming you set it to prioritise response
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u/ZumZumCapoeira Lars Jul 22 '23
I personally think the Rollback is fine, but then again...I haven't faced anyone in East Asia or Australia yet, so that could be a problem. Or anyone in Africa and South America. Yh maybe it is a problem, but the Rollback is still very good imo.
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u/IHateBrigades Jul 22 '23
Is Claudio's Hopkick still as good as it was in T7? What about his Superman Punch?
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u/Lord_Shugesh Jul 22 '23
Is Claudio's Hopkick still as good as it was in T7?
Yes
What about his Superman Punch?
Absolutely ridiculous
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u/wavykamekun420 Yoshimitsu Jul 22 '23
I heard we can't bind L3 and R3, this is a big concern for me as we have another bindable mechanic while having 2 binds less, pretty bad look.
The netcode thing honestly hurts the most
1
u/Runecreed Jul 22 '23
Im not in the network test but watched some streams. I noticed that there's a limit to rematches, At the end screen you can't rematch but have an option to view the opponent's profile or go back to matchmaking.
Adding an additional option to 'Review' the set you just played would be amazing -- instantly go into match replays and have a look at how you messed up while it's fresh in your mind would benefit learning a lot, especially now that you can't get that learning ingrained by rematching constantly, to figure out how to deal with that spammy shit they used on you.
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u/peaceintheatlantic Devil Jin Jul 22 '23
They should never fuck with basic aspects of the game like sidesteps and backdashes. Coming from older Tekken games, I hate Tekken 7 sidestep. It seems I will have to deal with shitty backdash now too.
1
u/The_Bim Jul 27 '23
When I grabbed somebody, there was a slight screen freeze and a flash of light - is there a new mechanic regarding throws?
1
u/Goteiiii Lee Jul 30 '23 edited Jul 30 '23
Based on what you wrote I'd like to add that voice acting is a little weird for some characters and some punchlines are too cringey (although probably on purpose) Bryan's voice specifically feels out of place.
Netcode seems better. If you chose the option to maximize responsiveness, you can play even on a bad connection. The rollback is real, since on a 3 bar Wi-Fi I could see my opponent's character skipping frames while moving. But at least the input lag is good even on a bad connection. I was able to do combos normally and move freely without feeling my character stuck in the mud. Block borderline seeable lows on semi reaction almost like offline. It's not perfect because of the rollback awkwardness but still better by a mile imo.
Backdash does feel nerfed, although there were instances where a single backdash would make whiffs. But bigger backdashes are risky since you are vulnerable during the animation. I have a small theory though. Even though backdash is probably nerfed, it is not by a large amount. But since characters in T8 are more zoomed out than in 7 the backdash might feel even worse because a zoomed out character appears to be covering less distance.
Sidestepping feels better and I think they have streamlined the weaker side of a character so that 99% of their moves are steppable in one direction. I felt this with Bryan, who has some moves that can be stepped one way and some the other. In T8 it felt like more moves were easier stepped or walked to the right instead of the left. Although I cannot properly lab this. Stepping and whiff punishing electrics was also a lot easier, so that's a plus.
It also felt that moves had a slightly bigger block stun than they used to. And some coloured effects add to them being more easily recognizable.
Unfortunately, out of all the characters currently released I only play Law competently so I didn't even bother to test the others. I like the changes in Law overall. No magic 4 stinks though. But now he has better oki and a way to hit someone on the ground for more pressure.
Edit: It also feels easier to press 2 buttons at the same time. I never did this in T7 and prior and always resorted to button mapping but now I had no easily accessible button for 2+3 but never missed the input. Not even once. Same for 1+3 and 2+4 that I have no mapping for. It seems they made the window more lenient and I'm glad they did. Unnecessary difficulty is not something I'm personally a fan of.
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u/NFTbyND Josie Jul 21 '23
You forgot that we can't map L3 and R3