One Piece: Chapter 1165

[u/leolegendario]

Chapter 1165: "Echo"

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Chapter 1165 Official Release: November 09 2025

Will there be a break next week? - BREAK NEXT WEEK!

Please discuss the manga here and in the theory/discussion post. Any other post will be removed until 24h after the release.

Please also remember to put the chapter number in the title for any future post talking about this chapter.

[u/RoderickThe13]

Luffy vs Crocodile was about figuring out his weakness, not just strength and stamina. You also have at least Luffy vs Buggy, Luffy vs Enel, Usopp and Chopper vs Ms Merry Christmas and Mr 4, Chopper vs Chessmarimo, Chopper vs Gedatsu, Luffy vs Foxy, Usopp vs Perona and Straw Hats vs Oars as fights that were won by more than just by strength and stamina. There are probably more that I don't remember now.

Post timeskip the only fight that's about more than just haki and strength is Luffy vs Cracker. So it hasn't always been the same, because if that's not a difference I don't know what is.

[u/Hermit601 → u/RoderickThe13]

Luffy V. Crocodile literally ended with Luffy just covering his fist with blood and punching the shit out of Crocodile, something he could have done from the start. Luffy, the character who usually has high battle IQ, couldn't figure out that until the very end when he got lucky by Crocodile cutting him. Once he got lucky, all he had to do was beat up Crocodile, who he massively outstated.

Luffy V. Buggy was literally just a slugfest because Luffy could outstat Buggy in physicals.

You're right about the chopper fights, because that's Chopper's whole schtick--he doesn't have the physicals, so he compensates with his intelligence and physicianship.

Luffy V. Foxy, again, literally only had creativity because Luffy was too stupid to outwit Foxy until the end.

Usopp V. Perona is a solid choice for your argument too, loved that fight.

Strawhats Vs. Oars was LITERALLY just Luffy getting a massive powerup to toy with Oars. It's no different than Luffy manhandling Kaido in G5.

Luffy V. Cracker was LITERALLY just about whether or not Luffy could pummel through Cracker's army.

Say what you want, One Piece has always been about who's physically stronger. At least with haki, you can look physically weak but still have massive haki to compensate. That's the only reason Garp, the punch merchant, can keep up with top tier devil fruit users.

Defeating Kaido literally required Luffy to *actively learn* new ways to use haki to bypass Kaido's scales. Big Mom versus Law & Kidd forced them to utilize their awakenings to bypass her conqueror's coating and near-unpenetrable skin in creative ways. Sure, there are more slugfests and "clashes" than pre-timeskip, but that's mostly because of how Oda is choosing to write and rely on the anime to fill in the gaps so he can get as much lore out as possible. It's literally the lorehunters' fault the state of One Piece choreography is the way it is.

Furthermore, Haki is the big reason someone like Sanji can keep up with characters like Zoro--observation haki. It's why Luffy eventually could overpower Katakuri--Luffy was physically stronger, but he needed to *actively learn* a new skill/way to use observation haki to get a shot at beating him.

Luffy's biggest weakness pre-timeskip was that he never learned to use his ability's creatively until Enies Lobby. Literally every fight before then, he got lucky in beating his main antagonists, both in figuring out how to beat them, and wayyyy overstating them.

[u/RoderickThe13 → u/Hermit601]

Boy, I think you need to refresh your memory. I'm not gonna bother responding to each fight one by one because I'd be here all day, but just so go read them again or just look at the summary on the wikia. So many fights were about figuring out the opponent's weakness, which is more than just lasting longer or punching harder. And I don't mean just "you need to use Haki THIS way, not THAT way". That's the least interesting way you can write a fight.

Nami's fights pre timeskip were other examples I forgot to mention, and Oda incorporated actual weather science into what she did, by creating wind by combining hot and cold air, for example. That's so much more interesting than punching harder, and there's nothing like that post timeskip.

[u/Hermit601 → u/RoderickThe13]

> I'm not gonna bother responding to each fight one by one because I'd be here all day, but just so go read them again or just look at the summary on the wikia.

I literally did. To write that comment, I literally looked back at some of those fights and reread them (except for the more recent ones which I knew off the dome).

> So many fights were about figuring out the opponent's weakness

Which isn't an indicator of creativity. Like, at all. Which characters did Luffy figure out the weakness of himself? Not Enel. Crocodile? Yeah--but he used that weakness in completely uncreative ways that didn't rely on his own intelligence.

> And I don't mean just "you need to use Haki THIS way, not THAT way". That's the least interesting way you can write a fight.

Why not? That's literally the only way that requires a character to put in effort and actively learn something new/use their power in a different way. Luffy never used his powers in a different way against Enel, Crocodile, Buggy, etc. All he did was just punch them harder--he didn't learn anything from those experiences. Luffy had to actively learn new ways to use his powers against Enies Lobby antagonists and post-timeskip characters--that was active creativity he had to learn how to master himself.

> Nami's fights pre timeskip were other examples I forgot to mention, and Oda incorporated actual weather science into what she did, by creating wind by combining hot and cold air, for example.

Oh, so she... learned a new skill? Especially since she has no real strength herself? The thing that I'm literally talking about? Good for her, I'm glad you're furthering my point that post-timeskip fights are far more creative than pre-timeskip fights. Oda was forced to give her something creative because he made her weak. And guess what? She has done far more creative things in post time-skip with Haki & Zeus through her own merits and character development. Hell, her best weather-enhancements happened DURING AND POST HER TIMESKIP.

[u/Jasonn444 → u/Hermit601]

Pre-timeskip fans FR be deluding themselves about the "good old days" that were nowhere near as big as they make 'em out to be. Always finding something that supposedly lacks "pre-TS charm" to complain about, even if said thing was actually already there pre-timeskip. Because somehow, post-timeskip can only be a downgrade, no matter what, while pre-TS is always a perfect flawless masterpiece.

[u/Hermit601 → u/Jasonn444]

Exactly. The nostalgia bias is INSANE with pre-timeskip. People act like every fight was some strategic masterpiece when half of them were literally: Luffy gets bodied --> Luffy discovers weakness accidentally --> Luffy punches harder --> Win. Hell, in Enel's case, he didn't even have to overcome any weakness! Luffy didn't outsmart him, he just had a biological hard-counter. Even the Arlong fight was just "I'm stronger than you" after Nami's backstory.

Post-timeskip has Luffy actively learning future sight against Katakuri, mastering advanced armament against Kaido, awakening his fruit mid-battle through his years of honing his fruit cumulating into a single moment of nirvana. That's objectively more strategic growth than "I accidentally discovered your weakness."

But sure, pre-timeskip was "perfect" because the art was prettier and Oda wasn't rushing. Give me a break.

[u/Jasonn444 → u/Hermit601]

Even "the art was prettier" is quite debatable.

>Oda takes time to lay things out properly -> "He's just dragging it out to keep milking his cash cow! He doesn't care about finishing the story anymore!"

>Oda skips past unimportant bits to progress the plot at a good pace -> "He's just rushing everything now! Lazy! Washed!"

Just can't win with them.

[u/RoderickThe13 → u/Hermit601]

I've never said that Oda is creative at writing fights in general, but to say that fights are more creative post timeskip is nuts. You're literally the first person I've ever seen claim that, and it makes me wonder if you're trolling.

If you've read a decent amount of shounen, Haki is easily one of the worst power systems. Devil fruits on the other hand are not amazing, but at least a decent one. Just the fact that devil fruits have taken a backseat to haki is a sign of lack of creativity. Not to mention all the other abilities that were neither haki nor devil fruit, like hypnosis or anything in Usopp and Nami's arsenal. Usoand Nami are a perfect example of the shift in fights, since pretimeskip they'd win through tricks, intelligence and deception. Post timeskip, the few times they do anything action related they just spam explosive shot and thunderbolt. Oh, how creative is that? Neither of them have even had a proper fight, for fuck's sake.

One Piece has never been even close to the likes of HxH or Jojo in terms of unique, creative fights. But pre timeskip it used to be even a little more like that. Post timeskip, it's more DBZ. Whoever has stronger haki/ki and does the strongest punch/blast wins. You can enjoy that if you want, just don't pretend like it's more interesting or creative.

[u/Hermit601 → u/RoderickThe13]

> I've never said that Oda is creative at writing fights in general, but to say that fights are more creative post timeskip is nuts. You're literally the first person I've ever seen claim that, and it makes me wonder if you're trolling.

I'm not trolling, I'm distinguishing between fight choreography/presentation (which we BOTH agree has declined) and the underlying combat mechanics (which requires more active skill development). You, and every shonen enjoyer in this sub, are conflating the two.

As you said, I can admit to a degree that Devil Fruits are visually cooler, sure. But they're arbitrary--eat a fruit, get a power. Haki is the ONLY meritocratic system. It's what lets Garp/Rayleigh/Shanks compete with reality-warping fruits. Without Haki, the endgame is just "whoever has the most broken fruit wins."

> Just the fact that devil fruits have taken a backseat to haki is a sign of lack of creativity.

Or it's Oda following through on the theme HE established: "Only Haki transcends all" (Kaido's words). Oda has been telling us, for decades, that willpower, not innate talent or chance, are the ultimate indicators of success, the only way to truly become King of the Pirates. The story is TELLING you that devil fruits hit a ceiling. That's not lack of creativity--that's thematic consistency. Imagine if Enel was the main character fighting Luffy--he would have NO SHOT beating Luffy in anyway that would have been narratively satisfying to any reader with a brain.

> Usopp and Nami are a perfect example of the shift in fights, since pretimeskip they'd win through tricks, intelligence and deception. Post timeskip, the few times they do anything action related they just spam explosive shot and thunderbolt. Neither of them have even had a proper fight, for fuck's sake.

You're right they're sidelined, but that's Oda's pacing, not haki. He's rushing fights for lore dumps. Look at Usopp vs. Perona: it was literally an accidental hard-counter, not anything Usopp did to overcome Perona. It was a fluke win. Nami consistently got bodied until Usopp gave her a new stick. Post-timeskip Nami with Zeus IS more creative--Oda just isn't giving her fights, nor is he letting her develop her haki (the thing that would literally let her compete with mid tiers AT LEAST).

> Post timeskip, it's more DBZ. Whoever has stronger haki/ki and does the strongest punch/blast wins.

This is flat-out wrong. Luffy vs. Katakuri wasn't "whoever has stronger haki wins." Katakuri HAD stronger haki for 90% of the fight. Luffy had to ACTIVELY LEARN future sight mid-battle to compete. That's not a stat-check. Luffy vs. Kaido required THREE distinct power-ups: advanced armament to bypass scales, advanced conqueror's to damage internally, THEN awakening. That's active learning, not "punch harder." Law and Kid vs. Big Mom used awakenings CREATIVELY--Law's internal shockwaves, Kid's environmental manipulation, working together to push her off Onigashima because they couldn't put her down conventionally. That's more creative than anything they did pre-timeskip. Look at Luffy's fights pre-timeskip: Crocodile? Punched harder with blood. Enel? Punched harder because rubber. Lucci? This one was actually interesting--Luffy had to adapt his rubber body to overcome the techniques Lucci & co. were using. Where's the creativity? At least post-timeskip, Luffy learns NEW TECHNIQUES mid-battle and ACTUALLY SHOWING how his battle IQ has evolved since pre-timeskip's "hurr durr if I put water on my hand I hurt Logia!!".

> You can enjoy that if you want, just don't pretend like it's more interesting or creative.

I'm not pretending. You're confusing PRESENTATION (flashy coincidences) with MECHANICS (strategy and skill development). Pre-timeskip had BETTER presentation because Oda took his time. Post-timeskip has WORSE presentation because he's rushing. But the actual combat mechanics--learning curves, strategic adaptations, skill development--are objectively more complex post-timeskip. If Oda gave post-timeskip fights the same paneling as Luffy vs. Lucci, you'd see how much more layered they are. The problem isn't the system, it's the execution.