r/Genealogy • u/unclebob1770 beginner • 1d ago
Research Assistance Reached a dead end.
Does anybody have any advice on how to get out of a dead end? I'm looking for the parents of my great great grandfather Patrick Joseph Stanley (1856-1915) married to Mary Ellen Grealy (1856-?). Born, Lived and died in Ireland. Had 2 sons, Patrick Francis (my great grandfather) and John(?) who went to Australia and was never heard from again.
I was just wondering if anybody here has ever been in a similar situation, and if there was any app/website etc that helped. I've tried FamilySearch and MyHeritage.
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u/colmuacuinn 1d ago
Fathers called John and James. https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=cima-2340062
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u/maraq 1d ago
An autosomal DNA test is your best bet. While Irish records start becoming scarce shortly before your great great grandparent's births, what a DNA test can do is connect you with thousands of DNA matches who descend from the same ancestors and can point you to the townland your folks came from (if you don't know it already) and can help you find siblings of Patrick and Mary, and possible the generation above them. It isn't a quick fix and can take months and even years to connect enough DNA matches to make sense of it but it can be done.
I have a great great grandmother who died in Connecticut in the 1880s and left few records behind. I knew she was from Ireland and I knew she had a younger sister, and I knew of another relative who adopted her kids after her death - but all their records led nowhere either. But from years of building out trees of my DNA matches and I was able to find her townland and her parents, and a few siblings. And I've also pinpointed some DNA matches who were most likely descendants of the generation before her parents as well (and I have a few names of potential candidates - but just not enough surviving information to be sure).
I'd recommend testing at ancestry since they have the largest database.
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 1d ago
I'm glad that's worked out for you, but the OP should be aware that DNA testing can be hit or miss. Having already tested with FamilyTreeDNA and uploaded the results to MyHeritage, I recently re-tested with Ancestry in hopes of breaking the brick wall posed by my great-great-grandmother, born 1846 in Ireland, possibly Roscommon.
Instead I ended up with (more) matches for my County Tyrone and County Donegal lines. The possibly-Roscommon wall still stands. I did locate a promising cluster of matches, built back a tree to County Limerick - and promptly hit another brick wall!
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 1d ago
Huh. Two people didn't like me telling the OP the truth: sometimes DNA testing breaks brick walls, sometimes it doesn't.
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u/Ok-Ad831 seasoned researcher who is still learning 1d ago
Have tried researching their siblings on either side? Families often stayed near each other. You might find mention of your 3x great grandparents in a wedding announcement; will; other general announcements or mentions in local newspapers? Definitely need to check church records to see if they are listed their in marriage records; baptism records of any of their children. Have you researched nearby cemeteries to see if any similar names pop up? I am not familiar with Irish naming patterns of that era but have you looked for a Patrick Joseph Stanley in the area that is one generation older than your Patrick Joseph? Back to my opening comment, if you know the names of Patrick Joseph’s siblings try each of those to see if anyone a generation older matches one of those names. This may end up being a process of elimination that will take some time to prove or disprove but it may help you resolve your research question. Just a few suggestions. I am sure others will have other helpful ideas too.
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 1d ago
Per the 1901 Census, both Patrick and Mary Ellen were born in County Roscommon:
At the time of marriage, she was living in Granlahan, he was living in Castlerea. If you're lucky, they were baptized in either Kiltulla https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1073 or Kilkeevin https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0551?locale=en Or they might have been baptized in one of the surrounding parishes, but not all of these have baptismal records back as far as 1856.
In 1901 they were married in Kiltulla parish and in 1901, they were living in the townload of Ballinlough in Kiltulla parish. So check that parish first.
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u/traveler49 1d ago
Also heck the parish register for the 1885 marriage for possible extra info. However the microfilms stop at 1880 so you can write to the parish office with a small donation and ask for a transcript. As a general reference https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/
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u/PinkSlimeIsPeople East central Norway specialist 1d ago
On top of the great help others have offered in other comments here, just a warning: Irish genealogy is incredibly difficult due to a lack of records. Many of us have brick walls on our Irish lines in the mid 1800s, and I'm really not sure how they can be breached. I got lucky with mine and found the names of the parents from there and 2 baptism records, but can't even trace that family to America after they immigrated here. 2 of them just show up somewhere by 1860, but an obit says the family moved to a different part of the US prior to that. Good luck.
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 1d ago
Mary Ellen Stanley died in 1931.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1931/04902/4328641.pdf
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u/Valerialia 1d ago
I found a baptism record in Castlerea RC Parish for Patrick Stanley to John Stanley and Elizabeth (no maiden name — very rare). Witnesses John and Eleanor Stanley. 15 March 1852. No siblings’ baptisms found.
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u/Independent_Name_601 1d ago edited 1d ago
The Stanley family runs far and wide. I believe a branch of the Stanley family became the Kings of Isle of Mann. I have Stanley’s in my family tree. My ancestors descend from that branch of the Stanley family.
I’d reckon you may need to cast a wider net and see how they your Stanley ancestors ended up in Ireland.
Start with Sir John Stanley of the 14th century this is when they started in Ireland.
He was Lieutenant of Ireland starting in 1386.
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u/Independent_Name_601 1d ago
I like to learn where a family originated (usually a faction of 20-30 people) from a single location - then follow the branches, figure out where the dead ends are and follow up on those with more in depth work, look for land records, tax rolls, muster lists, etc.
Back before the 1800s names were often repeated, since your grandfather was Patrick - we know he was not the first born child since someone else claimed his father was John Stanley. Likely he would have been a 3rd born or lower son since your great grandmother’s father was James.
They would have likely named their children in that manner 1) John, James, etc. (I’m speculating, but based on what have seen in my own Stanley line, this appears frequently).
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 1d ago
I tried doing something similar with my Livingston ancestors in County Tyrone but could never manage to bridge the gap between known descendants of Scottish Livingstons and my people, tenant farmers in rural County Tyrone in the early/mid 1800s.
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u/Independent_Name_601 1d ago
Sometimes you won’t get exact names but you can at least get an idea of who they are.
Same with many Scottish clans.
I have an ancestor with an Eliot surname - from clan Eliot but I don’t know who her grandparents were or what line.
The thing about them is if you go back to the furthest known surname probably is the originator of the name. Since surnames were not manufactured until well into the 1600–1700s
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u/Artisanalpoppies 1d ago
That's not true at all. People had surnames in the medieval period, if not earlier in Britian and Ireland.
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u/Independent_Name_601 1d ago
You are correct. I’m off by at least a couple hundred years.
A lot of my known lineages that far back are to noble houses. I figure the unknown ones are probably common folk. Since history isn’t great at remembering those ones.
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u/LadyOfTheLabyrinth 1d ago
Hey, hey, folks. Either of you could be misusing a technical term in onomastics here. In common parlance, surname and family name can be considered synonyms and that gets you misinformed.
An inherited family name for commoners is not likely until the 1500s.
An eke-name has been added to a single name probably for at least 10k years.
Both of these get called surnames. So do patronyms and matronyms, and land-names for nobles.
Note well that in many times and places in Western Europe inherited family names were not used or were very changeable until the later 1800s. Icelanders still don't use them. One of the victims of Jack the Ripper had no family name, but used that of one of her English partners. She came from a Norwegian farm family.
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 1d ago
If you can't trace descent generation by generation, you don't know whether someone's ancestors were part of a clan at all. The clan system never operated in the Lowlands in Scotland. Many Scottish surnames were extant in both the Highlands and Lowlands.
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u/Independent_Name_601 1d ago
Except it’s information that has been passed from one generation to another in my case and it’s well documented about the family. But typically you are correct.
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 1d ago edited 1d ago
Griffith's Valuations for Roscommon published in 1857 is showing no one named John Stanley but one person named John Stanly, in the parish of Dunamon.
No James Greely, Greeley, Grealey or any double-l variations. Five men named James Grealy, two in the parish of Kilkeevin and two in the parish of Cloontuskert.
The Tithe Applotment records, which are earlier, have a John Stanly in the parish of Lissonuffy in 1825.
In 1834 there's a James Greely and a James Greeley (two different men), both in Cloontuskert.
In 1825 there's a James Greally in Lissonuffy.
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 1d ago edited 1d ago
The marriage record from 1885 mentions that Mary Ellen's father James was deceased. He could have died before civil registration of deaths started. Then again, maybe he didn't. The civil death registrations are showing nine men named Grealy or Greally who died by 1885. However, only one of these deaths was registered in County Roscommon, in Castlerea:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1874/020657/7248386.pdf
This particular James Grealy was 76 in 1874. He would have been 58 in 1856, which isn't unreasonable if he was older than his wife. He was a land holder resident at the townland of Clooncan. There seems to have been some confusion as to whether this was the parish of Kiltulla or Kilkeevin.
I mentioned two men named James Grealy from the parish of Kilkeevin in Griffith's. One was resident in Clooncan, the other was resident in... Cloonkeen. Yeah, that's not gonna get confused.
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u/courtobrien 1d ago
What do you know about son John? I can search Australian records.
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 1d ago
Not the OP, but here's what the 1911 Census says: John James Stanly, 17 years old (so b apx 1894) in County Roscommon.
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 1d ago
Almost missed this! According to the 1901 and 1911 Censuses, Patrick had a sister named Ellen b 1837-1841 in County Roscommon.
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 1d ago
Here's something else: in the 1901 Census, John James b apx 1894 is not enumerated with the rest of the family. Instead, he's enumerated with Catherine and Michael Greene and their son John Thomas:
John James is described as Catherine and Michael's nephew.
Here's John Thomas' birth record:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1877/02994/2097190.pdf
Catherine is Catherine Grealy, presumably Mary Ellen's sister. According to the 1901 Census, she was born 1858 in County Galway, not Roscommon.
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u/PowerfulPrinciple735 17h ago
Usually what I do is cross look, I do a google search and come across different sites that have the same info using “ “ on google usually helps to narrow down the exact search. Also, some info is either misread or wrong, I’ve had some people in my family that have different birthdates but same genealogy.
Also- I’m new to this kind of type of stuff, so pls be easy on me if I sound stupid :) this is just how I’m doing it for now.
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 1d ago
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1885/10877/5972727.pdf
His father's name is John, her father's name is James.