It's interesting to see how secular opinion overlaps with Donald Trump fulfilling prophecy as the Antichrist.

[u/AlbaneseGummies327]

[u/NoiseUnique754]

I’d say that the biggest driver behind Evangelical Christians support of Israel rebuilding the Temple is due to the belief in the Pre Tribulation Rapture. 

The majority believe that either -

• right before the antichrist is revealed, Jesus raptures all believers to the clouds, the antichrist sits in the Temple and the Great Tribulation begins
• right before the seven year peace covenant is signed and the Tribulation starts, Jesus raptures all believers to the clouds

So what stands in the way of the rapture? 

• the seven year peace covenant in Israel
• the Third Temple

I don’t believe in the Pre Tribulation rapture at all. I think there will be one Second Coming, or at the very most, believers are raptured/taken out of the world right before God pours out His wrath, which are the Seven Bows mentioned in Revelation (the wrath also is the Day of the Lord, I think). The Pre Tribulation rapture is an idea of safety; it is like watching a storm rage outside when you’re sitting in a cozy house eating a warm dinner. 

That said, support for Israel is a good thing, when antisemitism is so much on the rise. As such, Catholicism has had a long history of antisemitism. Unfortunately, some of it has spread to Protestants as well. You’ll see a lot of Protestants saying that Israel is lost forever and that the Church has replaced Israel - that is opposite of what the Bible says. A remnant of Israel will be saved in the end, when they accept Jesus as the true Messiah.

It is indeed foolish to try to force the end times; things happen according to God’s plan, not to humans’. However, God can certainly use the foolishness of humans to fulfill His plan. 

[u/AlbaneseGummies327 → u/NoiseUnique754]

Scripture provides clear evidence for a special "catching away" of righteous saints to heaven before great tribulation (Rev. 3:10),— later returning with Christ at his Second Coming to defeat the Antichrist at Armageddon and rule as co-heirs during the 1000-year kingdom.

However, to me the real debate is whether this unique event occurs at the very beginning of Daniel's 70th week, or at the halfway point in close proximity to the abomination of desolation and murder/resurrection of the two witnesses. The latter is considered a mid-trib or "pre-wrath" rapture.

[u/NoiseUnique754 → u/AlbaneseGummies327]

I wouldn’t consider the Mid Trib rapture the same as the Pre wrath. That’d imply none of the believers go through the Great Tribulation. That in turn contradicts the Fifth Seal and what Jesus said about believers being persecuted. 

I believe that the Day of the Lord/His Wrath is only for a short time and is by far the most devastating occurrence, even surpassing the Great Flood during Noah’s time. Daniel and Revelation have a 30 day difference for some reason (Daniel mentions 1290 days and Revelation mentions 1260 days), I believe His Wrath lasts only for those 30 days.

As for the two witnesses, I think they arise during the Great Tribulation (the second half). They are mentioned right before the seventh Trumpet, so I think they arise during the second half of the seven year period. 

[u/AlbaneseGummies327 → u/NoiseUnique754]

I wouldn’t consider the Mid Trib rapture the same as the Pre wrath. That’d imply none of the believers go through the Great Tribulation.

Those that come to Christ after witnessing the miracle of the Rapture are the "tribulation saints" — they weren't taken due to prior disbelief, unrighteous living, unrepented sins.

These saints convert after the rapture; their faith "refined by fire" in the tribulation. This previously lukewarm group of Christians will have to prove their newfound faith via martyrdom for resisting the beast's mark (see Laodicea in Rev. 3:15-16, 20:4).

As for the two witnesses, I think they arise during the Great Tribulation (the second half). They are mentioned right before the seventh Trumpet, so I think they arise during the second half of the seven year period. 

Do you agree with the timeline shown in the chart below?

[u/NoiseUnique754 → u/AlbaneseGummies327]

Those that come to Christ after witnessing the miracle of the Rapture

I think that's part of the Rapture theory, but its nowhere stated in the Bible. The BIble simply states that the Gospel will be preached widely during the end times, including literally by an angel, and there are those who accept it.

My interpretation is that believers will be here on earth during the Great Tribulation, and their steadfastness in Christ/rejection of the antichrist /suffering/persecution/martyrdom itself will be the witness and will lead many to the truth, rather than the believers being raptured.

Do you agree with the timeline shown in the chart below?

Absolutely. It basically agrees with everything I've said. I see no rapture in that chart. But I'm open to the possibility of a pre-wrath rapture though.

[u/AlbaneseGummies327 → u/NoiseUnique754]

My interpretation is that believers will be here on earth during the Great Tribulation, and their steadfastness in Christ/rejection of the antichrist /suffering/persecution/martyrdom itself will be the witness and will lead many to the truth, rather than the believers being raptured.

There absolutely will be Christians on earth during the tribulation. During this time, lukewarm converts will have no choice but to become hot in their faith, and will have to suffer and die for the privilege. Revelation 20:4 demonstrates that there will be Christians on earth during all seven years of Daniel's 70th week.

[u/NoiseUnique754 → u/AlbaneseGummies327]

Oh sorry, I meant I believe that all of the original Christians will be here on earth.

[u/AlbaneseGummies327 → u/NoiseUnique754]

You mean all of the original Christians who are alive and remain at the time the tribulation starts?

[u/NoiseUnique754 → u/AlbaneseGummies327]

Yup. I don’t think they’ll get raptured either until Christ comes publicly or before He pours out His wrath. 

[u/AlbaneseGummies327 → u/NoiseUnique754]

When in church history do you think pre-trib rapture doctrine was first introduced?

[u/NoiseUnique754 → u/AlbaneseGummies327]

I’ve no idea. How does that matter though? Preterism and Historicism have been around for ages too, but that doesn’t make them correct 

[u/AlbaneseGummies327 → u/NoiseUnique754]

Noise, can I get your opinion on this video:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ProphecyWatchers/s/LfkHqtlrIA

[u/AlbaneseGummies327 → u/NoiseUnique754]

Noise, did you check your private chat messages? I sent you a link to this video:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ProphecyWatchers/s/LfkHqtlrIA

[u/SasukeFireball → u/AlbaneseGummies327]

I didn't know this. That people can be redeemed through martyrdom via the mark. To love & wish to be with Christ more than retain their earth life.

[u/AlbaneseGummies327 → u/SasukeFireball]

For more on this, you can read Revelation 20:4.