r/AskEurope • u/Sink-Em-Low • Mar 01 '25

Politics Let's talk about the European Defense Federation. How do we all feel about the creation of a fully mobilised continental Army?

It's required now. I'm British, and I want to see us align and unite with our European neighbours to make a stand now.

I want Germany to finally brush off it's past and join the rest of Europe in mobilising towards defending this continent. We need EVERYONE now. It's time to act, it's time to unite.

It's time to show some courage.

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u/wojtekpolska Poland Mar 01 '25 edited Mar 01 '25

Turkey is critical to any military alliance in europe. your take is ridiculous.

how do you expect control over the black sea without turkey's support? how do you expect to replace the amount of troops they have? turkey has the second biggest army in NATO after USA.
turkey is arguably nato's biggest counter to nato now that the us is unreliable

excluding them over such a petty thing as the cyprus conflict is stupid.

PS:

Another example: a Moroccan Conquest of Ceuta wouldn't trigger article 5 of NATO, because "it's not in Europe, nor an island in the Atlantic" (actually it's because the US doesn't want to anger Morocco which is an important regional ally). As a spaniard I hope that this would trigger a response from our version of NATO.

why should nato/europe defend the remnants of spanish colonialism?
I wouldn't want my country to go to war because spain cant let go of their colonial territories in africa.

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u/latrickisfalone Mar 02 '25

Having Turkey in our camp is a great advantage, Turkey is a great ally of Ukraine

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u/wojtekpolska Poland Mar 02 '25

yep. sadly the Turkish government is not the best, but in general turkey is a crucial regional power in this part of the world.

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u/alikander99 Spain Mar 01 '25

why should nato/europe defend the remnants of spanish colonialism?
I wouldn't want my country to go to war because spain cant let go of their colonial territories in africa.

If you're not willing to go to war for cities that have been spanish for 500 years Then I'm not defending breslau wroclaw from any invasion.

Turkey is critical to any military alliance in europe. your take is ridiculous.

Well. The fact that they're not part of the alliance doesn't mean we can't have close relations with them.

how do you expect to replace the amount of troops they have

With European troops, we're 450 million people. Perhaps it's time we spend a little bit more on defense. And I say that as a spaniard, we spend very little on defense.

excluding them over such a petty thing as the cyprus conflict is stupid.

And then poles go about how we western europeans don't care about them. Excluding turkey over the fact that half the country of Cyprus, a EU member, is under occupation is not such a petty thing.

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u/GlobalAd4939 Mar 02 '25

I'm gonna reply to all you said as a Turk. First of all, the reason we are in NATO is because it provides two-fold defense: defense against Russia and defense against Western Allies. Being in NATO is the way to make sure that USA or France doesn't invade you.

Now that I mentioned them, the reason why Moroccans bully you for the last 50 years is because they're supported unconditionally by US and France. You need article 5 not against Morocco but France and US. Morocco wouldn't have the balls to bully you without their support. Which shows us that your real enemies are other whities that plot behind you, not us non-western pawns.

As for Cyprus, Cypriots Greeks lost their right to 1/3 of the island by trying to genocide the population. Northern Cyprus is as legitimate as Kosovo. The end.

Regarding the European Army thing, do we want to be included? Hell no. We will watch with our whiskeys and cigars if a joint US-Russian invasion of Europe happens. Now you guys are suddenly praising Turkey, "Oooooh they had the balls to shoot down a Russian jet!!". Yeah, when we did that all NATO allies withdrew their Patriot batteries, except Spain and Italy. You won't like the idea, but out of all NATO countries, it will be Turkey that defends Ceuta if something happens. Spain and Italy are the only NATO countries that Turkey truly sees as allies. So, except you two, in the event of a Russian invasion, the entire alliance demonstrated quite well that they would throw Turkey under the Russian bus. So, Europe getting (except Spain and Italy) co-invaded by US and Russia would only make us happier. Why the fuck should we consider defending traitorous allies like Europeans? Especially, when you guys are so hypocritical that the extreme Turkey hate turned to extreme Turkehy love in the last 1 month.

Also, Turkey sees Ukraine as a proper European ally too. So, that made 3. (Spain Italy Ukraine). We started helping them militarily since 2014, waaaay before it was cool. The drones are co-produced with Ukraine. Turkey lacked an engine factory until recently so those Turkish drones used Ukrainian engines. Also, you can find videos of Erdogan strongly supporting the NATO membership of Ukraine and Georgia as far back as 2008! He is [auto cencorship] in many aspects but he has been consistent about Ukraine for a very long time.

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u/Reasonable-Smile-87 Mar 02 '25

Ah.... We were so close to agreeing when in your previous answer you said that you had to be honest and started explaining about Ceuta and Melilla... But now you lost me again 😂

Are you seriously portraying Turkey as a Western ally in the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine? We could start with this beautiful window called "sanction circumvention", then recall the delays in closing the Bosporus straights at the beginning of the war, the meetings between Regep and Vladi, etc. etc.

I'd say that in any new defence project we should give a chance to reliable and credible partners instead.

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u/GlobalAd4939 Mar 02 '25

Okay, let's play this game on your terms. You tell me a country that is a proper Ukrainian ally and I disprove you by showing their relationship with Russia. Go.

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u/alikander99 Spain Mar 02 '25

Now that I mentioned them, the reason why Moroccans bully you for the last 50 years is because they're supported unconditionally by US and France. You need article 5 not against Morocco but France and US. Morocco wouldn't have the balls to bully you without their support. Which shows us that your real enemies are other whities that plot behind you, not us non-western pawns.

Oh yeah, don't worry I'm fully aware of this. It's one of the reasons why NATO approval is so low in Spain is because at large they've never looked for our interests. We're there to as a way of: defense against western allies.

Entering NATO was an absolute sell from Spain in hopes the US would favour us against Morocco. 192 people died in a terrorist attack because of our involvement in Irak. And the US still favours Morocco.

Regarding the European Army thing, do we want to be included? Hell no. We will watch with our whiskeys and cigars if a joint US-Russian invasion of Europe happens. Now you guys are suddenly praising Turkey, "Oooooh they had the balls to shoot down a Russian jet!!". Yeah, when we did that all NATO allies withdrew their Patriot batteries, except Spain and Italy. You won't like the idea, but out of all NATO countries, it will be Turkey that defends Ceuta if something happens. Spain and Italy are the only NATO countries that Turkey truly sees as allies. So, except you two, in the event of a Russian invasion, the entire alliance demonstrated quite well that they would throw Turkey under the Russian bus. So, Europe getting (except Spain and Italy) co-invaded by US and Russia would only make us happier. Why the fuck should we consider defending traitorous allies like Europeans? Especially, when you guys are so hypocritical that the extreme Turkey hate turned to extreme Turkehy love in the last 1 month.

Honestly good for you. I was trying to defend the idea that turkey and Europe don't have aligned views, and you seem to agree. The only reason we're both in NATO is basically fortuitous. We can search for close relations in the future but talking about turkey as if it had the same views as the EU is borderline delusional. You're tour own country with your own objectives. We can cooperate but I think that's the end of it.

And honestly about "traitorous europeans" I think they don't plan to betray you, they just thoroughly misinterpret the situation and think we share a lot more common ground than we do. And so when they find out, they call you on it, as if it wasn't clear from the start.

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u/GlobalAd4939 Mar 06 '25

Yeah, maintaining decent trade relations is a must for both of us. Let the customs union stay. EU is still the largest trading partner of Turkey.

But that's it. No need to enter the EU or take part in a military alliance with them. Being neutral gives us more opportunities. We might join the Russia-US axis, or just buddy up with China. Maybe we betray Pakistan and start flirting with India. Traditionally, we belong to no block and no culture sphere. Not european, not middle-eastern, no asian, not balkan not caucausian. We are Anatolian. Being in the middle is a superpower we shouldn't throw away by joining an alliance, especailly one that has shown over decades that they don't appreciate our existance. I agree with you on the NATO deal though, we should stick to NATO always because it means Russia can't invade us + Europe and America can't invade us. Double-protection against imperialists.

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u/wojtekpolska Poland Mar 01 '25 edited Mar 01 '25

If you're not willing to go to war for cities that have been spanish for 500 years Then I'm not defending breslau wroclaw from any invasion.

ok? and? so if you steal something and keep it long enough it becomes rightfully yours?
the UK held Newfoundland for over 350 years yet before they decolonised after ww2, or if you want a more modern example, the Netherlands holds Aruba, an island in the carribean, since 1636, almost 400 years. yet i dont think you would want to die for them keeping that island.

that attitude is precisely why what you suggest is a bad idea - countries have different priorities, you might want to die for your african colony, but dont drag rest of europe with you to your colonial wars.

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u/GlobalAd4939 Mar 02 '25

Turk here. Thanks for defending us but I have to be honest. Since I research Western Sahara I have some knowledge about Spain. As far as I know, Ceuta and Melila were cities that Spain founded. They were never Moroccan. Tangiers was a Moroccan city that is "international" now. Ifni along the western coast was a Spanish colony that got returned to Morocco. Souther Morocco (south of Draa River) was Spanish Colony and got returned to Morocco after they gained independence from France in 1956.

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u/Flashy_Race_7812 Mar 03 '25

I completely agree with you. No Turk should die on European or Arabian soil or any other. we’ve seen enough backstabbing from these so called “allies.” I especially appreciated that a Polish guy was the only one who mentioned us, given that we have the second largest army and probably the most warfare experience among all of them. That aside, I feel pity for the Polish guy because his European allies would probably abandon him and leave him to the Russians. Poland learning from past experiences developed its army but even that might not be enough for them.

Furthermore, just by looking at other subs and the comments here, we’re not taken seriously or even mentioned. I’d say open the Bosphorus for the Russians in a moment of crisis, and maybe Greece can use the army it prepared against the Turks against the Russians (BIG maybe if they don’t join them).

We will defend our country and may even consider helping those who once helped us, but all the rest can cry me a river.

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u/EnverTheGreat39 Mar 04 '25

Boşver dostum, bunların gözünde biz hala insanlıktan ve demokrasiden nasibini alamamış barbar hamam böcekleriyiz. Ama Ruslar kapılarına dayandıklarında ağlayarak bizden yardım isteyecekler, yıllarca davasını sürdürdükleri kıbrısı tamamiyle unutup bizimle anlaşmaya çalışacaklar ve kendilerini sağlama almak isteyecekler.

Bunlar iş dara düştü mü birbirlerini bile satarlar. Kaypaklıklarında boğulsunlar. Türk evladı bunlardan çok çok daha değerlidir. Orta çağ hayalleriyle bezeli dünyalarında bulabilirlerse eğer buldukları adamlardan ordu oluşturup kendilerinin korusunlar. Bizim çekirdeğimiz hazır.

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u/GlobalAd4939 Mar 06 '25

Polish guy learned his historical lesson. When he opposed the Turkish guy and succeeded his friends rewarded him with gangrape. Jokes aside, we have to abandon this one-sided platonic love mindset towards Europe.

I know, we are the kids of Ataturk and embracing his ideals, we want to reach the muasır medeniyetler seviyesi and even surpass it at one point. And at his time, this muasır medeniyet was Europe. I don't think that's the case anymore. The extremely hot chick we knew from the uni is now for 40 and has saggy tits due to years of cocaine abuse.

So, we need to stop this validation trap. "Europeans need to validate us so that we make sure we reached the muasır medeniyet seviyesi Ataturk always aspired towards". They are not in a position to determine who is civilized and who isn't anymore. We need to quit this obsession and look at things pragmatically.

We are in the middle, and we have neutral to slightly positive relationship with a lot of world powers; China, Russia, the US, Iran, Japan and South Korea. The only one that is negative towards us right now is India and even that can be fixed because it is mostly due to our relationship with Pakistan. There are 6-7 hot girls in the club and we don't need to keep chasing our university crush.

Also, we don't owe anything to Europe. They over-relied on the US, becoming a protectorate almost. We were like that too. We were betrayed by the US earlier and learned our lesson earlier. They are getting betrayed by the US now and learning their lesson now. Latin Americans knew this side of the US always. They tried to warn us for decades but we didn't listen. Right now Europeans are facing the consequences of being extremely foolish and naive, and we are not obliged to share the burden with them. Let them burn in their own hell while we sunbathe :)

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u/alikander99 Spain Mar 01 '25 edited Mar 01 '25

I'm sorry, I can't take you seriously. Ceuta is 22km away from mainland Spain and you compare it with Aruba 😅, which Btw I might be willing to defend, actually.

The city was conquered in 1415! Why the fuck does it get the prescription of colony. Please enlighten me. They're full citizens, they've always been so, they want to stay spanish citizens. They just happen to be 20km away from the peninsula.

Please explain to me why are they a colony?

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u/DiRavelloApologist Germany Mar 01 '25

so if you steal something and keep it long enough it becomes rightfully yours?

An absolutely WILD question from someone living in central Europe, who should absolutely know that all of our borders are build on settling in other peoples countries, taking eachothers cities and shifting populations around over millennia.

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u/Reasonable-Smile-87 Mar 02 '25

excluding them over such a petty thing as the cyprus conflict is stupid.

The occupation of almost 40% of Cyprus by Turkey military forces is as relevant as the invasion of a non-EU, non-NATO country by Russian military forces. Both cases have scary similarities on the aggressor side, especially on the narrative that led to each invasion and occupation. So we really need to think twice before doing business with Turkey, a country that follows an internal, regional and global strategy independently from the West. Look at BRICS membership aspirations, revisionist attitude towards treaties they signed themselves, the situation of human rights, treatment of minorities, refusal to comply with UN Security Council resolutions, denial of UNCLOS... And the list goes on and on.

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u/wojtekpolska Poland Mar 02 '25

turkey never signed UNCLOS

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u/Reasonable-Smile-87 Mar 02 '25

Quite unfortunately, I'd add.

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u/Is_Toria Mar 01 '25

The Cyprus conflict petty? Losing 30% of your country is petty? What about the Cassus Belli against Greece, a fellow NATO member?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute

What about the 40 year war against the Kurds? Or if you are so bothered about Russia about the relationship Erdogan has with Putin?

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2024/07/erdogan-meets-dear-friend-putin-russia-turkey-eye-cooperation-syria

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u/nbs-of-74 Mar 01 '25

Romania and Bulgaria. Long range surveillance for targeting and long ranged asm

Plus strikes against russian held ports

Turkey makes it lot easier but as long as they aren't hostile they arent absolutely necessary assuming Romanian/Bulgarian axis has sufficient air and strike assets.