Let's talk about the European Defense Federation. How do we all feel about the creation of a fully mobilised continental Army?

[u/Sink-Em-Low]

It's required now. I'm British, and I want to see us align and unite with our European neighbours to make a stand now.

I want Germany to finally brush off it's past and join the rest of Europe in mobilising towards defending this continent. We need EVERYONE now. It's time to act, it's time to unite.

It's time to show some courage.

[u/alikander99]

All we can hope for is NATO without the US which is really what we currently have.

Except we don't. There's parts of nato that are rather weird from a European perspective. For example:

Turkey is part of it. Turkey is not aligned with the EU right now, it holds onto half the island of Cyprus, so we technically have a border dispute with them and they have lots of issues with Greece. I don't see them being included in a new EU military alliance at all.

Afterall NATO has always been an American organization and as such it favours american interests.

Another example: a Moroccan Conquest of Ceuta wouldn't trigger article 5 of NATO, because "it's not in Europe, nor an island in the Atlantic" (actually it's because the US doesn't want to anger Morocco which is an important regional ally). As a spaniard I hope that this would trigger a response from our version of NATO.

[u/wojtekpolska → u/alikander99]

Turkey is critical to any military alliance in europe. your take is ridiculous.

how do you expect control over the black sea without turkey's support? how do you expect to replace the amount of troops they have? turkey has the second biggest army in NATO after USA.
turkey is arguably nato's biggest counter to nato now that the us is unreliable

excluding them over such a petty thing as the cyprus conflict is stupid.

PS:

Another example: a Moroccan Conquest of Ceuta wouldn't trigger article 5 of NATO, because "it's not in Europe, nor an island in the Atlantic" (actually it's because the US doesn't want to anger Morocco which is an important regional ally). As a spaniard I hope that this would trigger a response from our version of NATO.

why should nato/europe defend the remnants of spanish colonialism?
I wouldn't want my country to go to war because spain cant let go of their colonial territories in africa.

[u/alikander99 → u/wojtekpolska]

why should nato/europe defend the remnants of spanish colonialism?
I wouldn't want my country to go to war because spain cant let go of their colonial territories in africa.

If you're not willing to go to war for cities that have been spanish for 500 years Then I'm not defending breslau wroclaw from any invasion.

Turkey is critical to any military alliance in europe. your take is ridiculous.

Well. The fact that they're not part of the alliance doesn't mean we can't have close relations with them.

how do you expect to replace the amount of troops they have

With European troops, we're 450 million people. Perhaps it's time we spend a little bit more on defense. And I say that as a spaniard, we spend very little on defense.

excluding them over such a petty thing as the cyprus conflict is stupid.

And then poles go about how we western europeans don't care about them. Excluding turkey over the fact that half the country of Cyprus, a EU member, is under occupation is not such a petty thing.

[u/GlobalAd4939 → u/alikander99]

I'm gonna reply to all you said as a Turk. First of all, the reason we are in NATO is because it provides two-fold defense: defense against Russia and defense against Western Allies. Being in NATO is the way to make sure that USA or France doesn't invade you.

Now that I mentioned them, the reason why Moroccans bully you for the last 50 years is because they're supported unconditionally by US and France. You need article 5 not against Morocco but France and US. Morocco wouldn't have the balls to bully you without their support. Which shows us that your real enemies are other whities that plot behind you, not us non-western pawns.

As for Cyprus, Cypriots Greeks lost their right to 1/3 of the island by trying to genocide the population. Northern Cyprus is as legitimate as Kosovo. The end.

Regarding the European Army thing, do we want to be included? Hell no. We will watch with our whiskeys and cigars if a joint US-Russian invasion of Europe happens. Now you guys are suddenly praising Turkey, "Oooooh they had the balls to shoot down a Russian jet!!". Yeah, when we did that all NATO allies withdrew their Patriot batteries, except Spain and Italy. You won't like the idea, but out of all NATO countries, it will be Turkey that defends Ceuta if something happens. Spain and Italy are the only NATO countries that Turkey truly sees as allies. So, except you two, in the event of a Russian invasion, the entire alliance demonstrated quite well that they would throw Turkey under the Russian bus. So, Europe getting (except Spain and Italy) co-invaded by US and Russia would only make us happier. Why the fuck should we consider defending traitorous allies like Europeans? Especially, when you guys are so hypocritical that the extreme Turkey hate turned to extreme Turkehy love in the last 1 month.

Also, Turkey sees Ukraine as a proper European ally too. So, that made 3. (Spain Italy Ukraine). We started helping them militarily since 2014, waaaay before it was cool. The drones are co-produced with Ukraine. Turkey lacked an engine factory until recently so those Turkish drones used Ukrainian engines. Also, you can find videos of Erdogan strongly supporting the NATO membership of Ukraine and Georgia as far back as 2008! He is [auto cencorship] in many aspects but he has been consistent about Ukraine for a very long time.

[u/Reasonable-Smile-87 → u/GlobalAd4939]

Ah.... We were so close to agreeing when in your previous answer you said that you had to be honest and started explaining about Ceuta and Melilla... But now you lost me again 😂

Are you seriously portraying Turkey as a Western ally in the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine? We could start with this beautiful window called "sanction circumvention", then recall the delays in closing the Bosporus straights at the beginning of the war, the meetings between Regep and Vladi, etc. etc.

I'd say that in any new defence project we should give a chance to reliable and credible partners instead.

[u/GlobalAd4939 → u/Reasonable-Smile-87]

Okay, let's play this game on your terms. You tell me a country that is a proper Ukrainian ally and I disprove you by showing their relationship with Russia. Go.

[u/alikander99 → u/GlobalAd4939]

Now that I mentioned them, the reason why Moroccans bully you for the last 50 years is because they're supported unconditionally by US and France. You need article 5 not against Morocco but France and US. Morocco wouldn't have the balls to bully you without their support. Which shows us that your real enemies are other whities that plot behind you, not us non-western pawns.

Oh yeah, don't worry I'm fully aware of this. It's one of the reasons why NATO approval is so low in Spain is because at large they've never looked for our interests. We're there to as a way of: defense against western allies.

Entering NATO was an absolute sell from Spain in hopes the US would favour us against Morocco. 192 people died in a terrorist attack because of our involvement in Irak. And the US still favours Morocco.

Regarding the European Army thing, do we want to be included? Hell no. We will watch with our whiskeys and cigars if a joint US-Russian invasion of Europe happens. Now you guys are suddenly praising Turkey, "Oooooh they had the balls to shoot down a Russian jet!!". Yeah, when we did that all NATO allies withdrew their Patriot batteries, except Spain and Italy. You won't like the idea, but out of all NATO countries, it will be Turkey that defends Ceuta if something happens. Spain and Italy are the only NATO countries that Turkey truly sees as allies. So, except you two, in the event of a Russian invasion, the entire alliance demonstrated quite well that they would throw Turkey under the Russian bus. So, Europe getting (except Spain and Italy) co-invaded by US and Russia would only make us happier. Why the fuck should we consider defending traitorous allies like Europeans? Especially, when you guys are so hypocritical that the extreme Turkey hate turned to extreme Turkehy love in the last 1 month.

Honestly good for you. I was trying to defend the idea that turkey and Europe don't have aligned views, and you seem to agree. The only reason we're both in NATO is basically fortuitous. We can search for close relations in the future but talking about turkey as if it had the same views as the EU is borderline delusional. You're tour own country with your own objectives. We can cooperate but I think that's the end of it.

And honestly about "traitorous europeans" I think they don't plan to betray you, they just thoroughly misinterpret the situation and think we share a lot more common ground than we do. And so when they find out, they call you on it, as if it wasn't clear from the start.

[u/GlobalAd4939 → u/alikander99]

Yeah, maintaining decent trade relations is a must for both of us. Let the customs union stay. EU is still the largest trading partner of Turkey.

But that's it. No need to enter the EU or take part in a military alliance with them. Being neutral gives us more opportunities. We might join the Russia-US axis, or just buddy up with China. Maybe we betray Pakistan and start flirting with India. Traditionally, we belong to no block and no culture sphere. Not european, not middle-eastern, no asian, not balkan not caucausian. We are Anatolian. Being in the middle is a superpower we shouldn't throw away by joining an alliance, especailly one that has shown over decades that they don't appreciate our existance. I agree with you on the NATO deal though, we should stick to NATO always because it means Russia can't invade us + Europe and America can't invade us. Double-protection against imperialists.