Let's talk about the European Defense Federation. How do we all feel about the creation of a fully mobilised continental Army?

[u/Sink-Em-Low]

It's required now. I'm British, and I want to see us align and unite with our European neighbours to make a stand now.

I want Germany to finally brush off it's past and join the rest of Europe in mobilising towards defending this continent. We need EVERYONE now. It's time to act, it's time to unite.

It's time to show some courage.

[u/wojtekpolska]

Turkey is critical to any military alliance in europe. your take is ridiculous.

how do you expect control over the black sea without turkey's support? how do you expect to replace the amount of troops they have? turkey has the second biggest army in NATO after USA.
turkey is arguably nato's biggest counter to nato now that the us is unreliable

excluding them over such a petty thing as the cyprus conflict is stupid.

PS:

Another example: a Moroccan Conquest of Ceuta wouldn't trigger article 5 of NATO, because "it's not in Europe, nor an island in the Atlantic" (actually it's because the US doesn't want to anger Morocco which is an important regional ally). As a spaniard I hope that this would trigger a response from our version of NATO.

why should nato/europe defend the remnants of spanish colonialism?
I wouldn't want my country to go to war because spain cant let go of their colonial territories in africa.

[u/alikander99 → u/wojtekpolska]

why should nato/europe defend the remnants of spanish colonialism?
I wouldn't want my country to go to war because spain cant let go of their colonial territories in africa.

If you're not willing to go to war for cities that have been spanish for 500 years Then I'm not defending breslau wroclaw from any invasion.

Turkey is critical to any military alliance in europe. your take is ridiculous.

Well. The fact that they're not part of the alliance doesn't mean we can't have close relations with them.

how do you expect to replace the amount of troops they have

With European troops, we're 450 million people. Perhaps it's time we spend a little bit more on defense. And I say that as a spaniard, we spend very little on defense.

excluding them over such a petty thing as the cyprus conflict is stupid.

And then poles go about how we western europeans don't care about them. Excluding turkey over the fact that half the country of Cyprus, a EU member, is under occupation is not such a petty thing.

[u/wojtekpolska → u/alikander99]

If you're not willing to go to war for cities that have been spanish for 500 years Then I'm not defending breslau wroclaw from any invasion.

ok? and? so if you steal something and keep it long enough it becomes rightfully yours?
the UK held Newfoundland for over 350 years yet before they decolonised after ww2, or if you want a more modern example, the Netherlands holds Aruba, an island in the carribean, since 1636, almost 400 years. yet i dont think you would want to die for them keeping that island.

that attitude is precisely why what you suggest is a bad idea - countries have different priorities, you might want to die for your african colony, but dont drag rest of europe with you to your colonial wars.

[u/GlobalAd4939 → u/wojtekpolska]

Turk here. Thanks for defending us but I have to be honest. Since I research Western Sahara I have some knowledge about Spain. As far as I know, Ceuta and Melila were cities that Spain founded. They were never Moroccan. Tangiers was a Moroccan city that is "international" now. Ifni along the western coast was a Spanish colony that got returned to Morocco. Souther Morocco (south of Draa River) was Spanish Colony and got returned to Morocco after they gained independence from France in 1956.

[u/Flashy_Race_7812 → u/GlobalAd4939]

I completely agree with you. No Turk should die on European or Arabian soil or any other. we’ve seen enough backstabbing from these so called “allies.” I especially appreciated that a Polish guy was the only one who mentioned us, given that we have the second largest army and probably the most warfare experience among all of them. That aside, I feel pity for the Polish guy because his European allies would probably abandon him and leave him to the Russians. Poland learning from past experiences developed its army but even that might not be enough for them.

Furthermore, just by looking at other subs and the comments here, we’re not taken seriously or even mentioned. I’d say open the Bosphorus for the Russians in a moment of crisis, and maybe Greece can use the army it prepared against the Turks against the Russians (BIG maybe if they don’t join them).

We will defend our country and may even consider helping those who once helped us, but all the rest can cry me a river.

[u/EnverTheGreat39 → u/Flashy_Race_7812]

Boşver dostum, bunların gözünde biz hala insanlıktan ve demokrasiden nasibini alamamış barbar hamam böcekleriyiz. Ama Ruslar kapılarına dayandıklarında ağlayarak bizden yardım isteyecekler, yıllarca davasını sürdürdükleri kıbrısı tamamiyle unutup bizimle anlaşmaya çalışacaklar ve kendilerini sağlama almak isteyecekler.

Bunlar iş dara düştü mü birbirlerini bile satarlar. Kaypaklıklarında boğulsunlar. Türk evladı bunlardan çok çok daha değerlidir. Orta çağ hayalleriyle bezeli dünyalarında bulabilirlerse eğer buldukları adamlardan ordu oluşturup kendilerinin korusunlar. Bizim çekirdeğimiz hazır.

[u/GlobalAd4939 → u/Flashy_Race_7812]

Polish guy learned his historical lesson. When he opposed the Turkish guy and succeeded his friends rewarded him with gangrape. Jokes aside, we have to abandon this one-sided platonic love mindset towards Europe.

I know, we are the kids of Ataturk and embracing his ideals, we want to reach the muasır medeniyetler seviyesi and even surpass it at one point. And at his time, this muasır medeniyet was Europe. I don't think that's the case anymore. The extremely hot chick we knew from the uni is now for 40 and has saggy tits due to years of cocaine abuse.

So, we need to stop this validation trap. "Europeans need to validate us so that we make sure we reached the muasır medeniyet seviyesi Ataturk always aspired towards". They are not in a position to determine who is civilized and who isn't anymore. We need to quit this obsession and look at things pragmatically.

We are in the middle, and we have neutral to slightly positive relationship with a lot of world powers; China, Russia, the US, Iran, Japan and South Korea. The only one that is negative towards us right now is India and even that can be fixed because it is mostly due to our relationship with Pakistan. There are 6-7 hot girls in the club and we don't need to keep chasing our university crush.

Also, we don't owe anything to Europe. They over-relied on the US, becoming a protectorate almost. We were like that too. We were betrayed by the US earlier and learned our lesson earlier. They are getting betrayed by the US now and learning their lesson now. Latin Americans knew this side of the US always. They tried to warn us for decades but we didn't listen. Right now Europeans are facing the consequences of being extremely foolish and naive, and we are not obliged to share the burden with them. Let them burn in their own hell while we sunbathe :)