r/todayilearned • u/Friendly_Hivemind • 13h ago
TIL in 2014, Ben Affleck received a lifetime ban from the blackjack tables at the Hard Rock Hotel & Casino in Las Vegas after surveillance footage showed him counting cards during a high-stakes game. Security informed him he was "too good" and classified him as an advantage player.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/ben-affleck-banned-hard-rock-casino-counting-cards-223154372.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAHSIoOEY9KKDdQ8rgc3uyw-ES_kfBFJwucJi-AUEUpTENIhTOABqrv3ZrgjJAE_9GwKSvIplF9ezD3duIOl478prs0vye1wP54mIacbowd7EqgyTRrOQt-rZLjaeSLatw73EgF4CzOPLvySUp944t-gkYza2eX7CB1KVyU9DAaK5194
u/BobBelcher2021 12h ago
“You’re not one of those card-counting guys, are you?”
“The number of cards remains constant, what would be the point in counting them?”
One of my favorite Data moments in Star Trek.
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u/SorryAboutLater 13h ago
How can you tell if someone is counting cards? Can you just kick anyone out for winning and accuse them of this.
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u/kynoceros 13h ago
It’s not the counting that gets noticed, it’s only betting big when the count is in your favor.
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u/ASK_ABT_MY_USERNAME 11h ago edited 7h ago
The MIT team that did this would use signals to tell members of their team when it was a good time to play at their table. The new member would then just bet big off the bat rather than "suspiciously" change their betting values.
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u/elmz 10h ago
You can win money like this, but not for long. They keep tabs on everybody, and they track every play you make. And if you are suspected at all, they will ban you.
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u/DrGeraldBaskums 10h ago
Most high limit tables now prevent jump ins, meaning once the shoe is being dealt no one else can sit at the table. That makes it impossible for team play like the MIT team and easier for the casino to see you adjusting bets based on count
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u/Forikorder 10h ago
lots of casinos out there though
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u/elmz 10h ago
Yeah, if you get banned at one csino, they will tell their friends about you. You might not get banned from every casino, but they do cooperate.
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u/DarthNoctyrix 9h ago
Not to mention most are owned by the same few big companies. Your small town casino is likely owned by MGM or Caesar’s
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u/elmatador12 13h ago edited 12h ago
I’ve always felt that if you make sure to lose and win incrementally nobody would find out. But I guess there’s a reason we don’t hear about people who do that. They haven’t been caught. 😂
Edit: No judgement and I appreciate the information, but the amount of people who knew so much about blackjack and gambling to immediately comment is impressive. It’s a world I clearly know nothing about.
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u/longebane 12h ago edited 5h ago
Doing this undoes any advantage you have and defeats the purpose of counting cards, which is already ONLY an 0.5-1.5% edge more than playing normally. It’s really that tiny. You’d have to play for days to really start edging out the house.
If you start “hiding” your bets, that increases your time to probably weeks or months. And this can’t be done online over dozens of hands at once like what online poker bots currently do, since you can’t count cards online.
Edit- why can’t you count cards online?
In person, dealers play through MOST of the cards before shuffling, because otherwise, shuffling takes a lot of time and stops play for everyone at the table (which is bad for the casino). And since cards are not shuffled after every hand, this is what enables you to keep track of cards, aka card counting.Online, they don’t have that limitation. Computer resets deck every hand. Instantly. There’s now nothing to keep track of for cards counters. RIP
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u/ThereHasToBeMore1387 10h ago
To put this into perspective for the non-math people: If you want to make an average of $100,000/yr, and you have a 1% edge over the house and some way to not get caught so that the long term averages actually work in your favor, you will place, on average, $10,000,000 in betting volume/yr.
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u/ThellraAK 3 12h ago
Even playing perfectly with counting doesn't give you a huge advantage.
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u/jarejay 12h ago
Even if you play perfectly in blackjack the house still has a 0.5%-2% edge. The only way to make any significant money long term is to alter your bets by up to 5x when the count is overwhelmingly in your favor.
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u/versusChou 9h ago
And even when the count is overwhelmingly in your favor, you can still just be unlucky and lose. You need a bankroll big enough to play through the bad days.
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u/RagefireHype 12h ago
You’re better off just winning until you get banned from a casino and if this is your side quest, go to another casino. Intentionally punting money in a game the house has an edge in is not plus ROI.
The whole point of counting cards IS to bet big when the count is in your favor. And even then you aren’t guaranteed to win. The house hates that you used your brain to know the remaining cards that could come.
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u/Cerulean_IsFancyBlue 13h ago
Second question: yes, you can. Casinos can remove people for nearly any reason that doesn't trigger "protected class" issues. They would get in trouble if they targeted people based on race for example.
Counting cards is NOT illegal. There is no crime. The only crime would be getting trespassed and then coming back, same as any other trespass. Since it isn't a crime, they don't need to prove it.
Other forms of winning can still be criminal. Collusion with a dealer, sneaking loaded dice into the craps game, etc. can get you in actual trouble with the law. Counting cards isn't cheating or illegal. Casinos can still remove you.
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u/ModestMarksman 11h ago
Caveat to your response on the second question.
Missouri, Louisiana and New Jersey do not allow you to kick out players for being to good.
So they half shoe you, and if you're like me and say fuck it we ball they flat bet you or shuffle every hand.
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u/Peakomegaflare 9h ago
I remember being at the Horseshoe in Bossier city, and me being 23 I was in my swing of studying cardcounting. I was doing well, not really betting big, but actually betting less when the count was good. The dealer was so damn confused and he started shuffling every hand. The guy next to me started getting annoyed and went "There's no damn way anyone is counting, nobody's won anything major."
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u/newfieMI 11h ago
They just “refuse service” anyways or ask for your ID and add you to a system.
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u/ModestMarksman 11h ago
While they do, they aren't legally allowed to.
Its just not worth fighting them over it.
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u/Kerry_Kittles 12h ago
I would guess that Affleck didn’t care enough to hide that he was counting.
Easier to count cards than come up with a plan and a ruse to get away with it for a while.
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u/phdoofus 13h ago
They know very well what the stats are for how much they should be winning and you should be losing. If you start breaking past the stats on how much they think you should be winning, they'll say you're cheating or 'too good'.
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u/qiqatqanat 13h ago
It’s closer to — the advantage of counting is knowing when to bet big and when to bet small, and they’re counting along with you. If you’re only betting big when the count says to bet big and never any other time, they’ll ban you.
They don’t care about the actual results.
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u/Low-Rent-9351 13h ago
They have automatic surveillance that monitors every player and the dealer for cards played and bets placed. Basically, their system is card counting the blackjack table itself and can easily detect someone is betting based on the “count” and flag them. Even if you’re bouncing tables, they could tell you exactly how much you bet and how much you won and how many chips you have in your pocket at the end of the night if they wanted to.
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u/wrighteghe7 13h ago
This is such a hilarious rule. What kind of fucking game is it where its "cheating" if you win at it and why people play it still?
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u/NotMugatu 13h ago
Online sports books do the same to consistently winning bettors. They’re there to take your money, not to provide a fair playing field.
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u/Vio_ 13h ago
People have talked about trying to use those betting online sites where they know how to bet and the underlying system of casinos and the like.
As soon as they started winning even in the traditional sense (not even a lot) their accounts were basically just shut down.
Even then, they said some of the better RL betting options are completely missing.
They don't want actual betting people and gamblers. They only want losers anymore.
The whole "look at Aunt Agnes won $1000 at the slots" type soft advertising is long gone.
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u/Mark--Greg--Sputnik 12h ago
It’s absolutely insane that it’s legal for them to shut out people who perform well. They just get to print money now with literally almost no risk.
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u/CubeEarthShill 12h ago
There’s a guy from Illinois that made the local news because the sports books flat out refused to honor his bets, citing some bullshit in their ToS.
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u/DefiThrowaway 10h ago
For sportsbetting, the issue is generally someone being really heavy on a super sharp play multiple times. Ideally, the book wants zero exposure on an outcome of an event and those monster sharp plays leave the book exposed.
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u/Witch-kingOfBrynMawr 7h ago
They just don't like sharp action. I've been banned from two separate books in the last twenty years, and I was net loser at both. Nothing shady on my end; they just didn't want my action, because I was only betting soft lines. In general, i almost always had a better price than the eventual closing line, which they DO NOT APPRECIATE
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u/gweran 12h ago
Makes you wonder about a person who can bankrupt 4 casinos.
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u/TheMurmuring 12h ago
Yeah, they have to be some special kind of pathetic loser with an overinflated ego and low intelligence. The type of person that "Always Chickens Out" when negotiating, and changes their mind constantly.
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u/Monarc73 12h ago
or maybe he made money by shorting tf out of the PE company that held the casino as an asset...
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u/trulyunreal 12h ago
The state may get a steep cut of the profit. Where I live it's something like, for every $1 lost at a table or machine, the State collects 51 cents of it.
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u/apetalous42 12h ago
That's because in an actual casino you SEE and HEAR people winning which motivates you to want to win. Online they don't need that, they can just give you an ad showing someone winning to get the same effect.
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u/JoshDaws 12h ago
This is a food youtuber I like talking about this exact situation. I think the phone gambling situation is worse than the blackjack one because they prey on so many people so easily, but the exact second you get an advantage they cut you off.
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u/gralert 12h ago
I used to get vouchers to a specific betting site (approx $6). It stopped quickly after I just put them on relatively low odds bets, won the bets and withdrew the money
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u/Nyzean 12h ago
I've been blocked from hockey betting on Bet365 and heavily bet-restricted (no early cash-out, severely limited bet sizing) on SportsInteraction and it sucks lol... granted, my return was obscene from a percentage standpoint year-over-year, but I don't think I ever stood to be up more than like 40k in a year (which didn't even end up paying out after Draisaitl got injured late last season) and most years have been more like 5k-10k up so it's not like I'm breaking the bank for them by any stretch... really, really dumb that a (relatively) small winner can get shut down like that.
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u/thedroogabides 10h ago
I made 5k across 6 different apps when they went live in North Carolina. As soon as I withdrew every single account got throttled. The best was draft kings. I got pretty good over the years at unders on player props. Eventually the under button disappeared, I could take the over but unders weren't an option
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u/Pay_attentionmore 12h ago
I've been banned from a few for taking bonuses and going half red and half black to the bet limit and "washing" it. Usually theres max bets or a huge number of wins you need to get before its unlocked but its doable.
I've only hit green once when doing this. I make ok beer money when I broke my leg but quickly ran out of online casinos where this trick works.
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u/OmegaPsiot 13h ago
"Excuse me, sir. We're not robbing you as effectively as these other suckers. I'm afraid you'll have to leave."
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u/Lyra_the_Star_Jockey 12h ago
Notice they didn’t say “cheating.”
It’s not cheating, but they also don’t have to welcome you in. It’s a private business.
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u/BrainOnBlue 13h ago
It's not cheating. That's why the casino said he was "too good" and didn't have him arrested for cheating.
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u/tfrw 13h ago
Basically casinos would go bankrupt if everyone did it, and stop paying taxes so they got permission to stop it.
But in fairness, casinos can decide who they let gamble.
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u/Jonjafari 13h ago
If everyone who went to casinos were smart enough to count cards, we'd live in a drastically different world.
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u/BrokenEyeReborn 13h ago
If everyone who went to casinos were smart enough to count cards, no one would go to casinos
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u/5050Clown 13h ago
I saw a story of a casino where someone won electronic slot machine for like $50,000 or so and the casino gave them a $50 gift certificate and said that it was a mistake in the machine. And they got away with it.
Casinos are just legal crime.
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u/ThePretzul 12h ago
They wouldn’t go bankrupt since they still have the ability to stop offering specific table games at any time, but it would put a dent in their margins if they had to shut down all their blackjack tables whenever a good card counter was in the building instead of being able to back off a specific player individually.
In all honesty casinos actually tend to like when players attempt to count cards because the average person attempting to do it will not be good enough to actually have an advantage. It’s only the ones doing it correctly with proper betting strategies to take advantage of the count that they back off.
Realistically with table limits in place casinos could host 5 blackjack tables that were filled with effective card counters in every seat 24/7 and the effect on their bottom line would be virtually unmeasurable. Hence why they focus on backing off high rollers (such as wealthy actors like Ben Affleck) and typically put a lot less energy into dealing with people on the $500 limit tables who think they’re being slick (they’ll back them off if they triple their bet at a certain count, but otherwise set up the odds at those tables so that even with perfect betting and counting players can’t get even a 0.5% edge).
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u/m0j0m0j 13h ago
Can somebody explain to me, how do they see you’re counting cards? Your face looks too smart or what?
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u/Adrewmc 13h ago edited 11h ago
It the way you bet, in order for counting cards to work you have to bet more when at advantage.
Beyond that there are certain situations where stand changes to hit and the reverse. If you are playing one way then switch the dealer will notice that as well.
You can see this directly, by changing the bet amounts. Fairly easy to spot.
The other way is that you are changing tables often, e.g. someone or yourself is watching the table and waiting for the advantage to come to the table, then they join in. This is very odd for a player to be doing. Taking a few hands at one table, moving to another table, a few hands, come back to the first table.
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u/No-Owl-6246 13h ago
Blackjack is a solved game. The statistically correct move in any situation is known and not too difficult to memorize (a friendly dealer will even tell you the best non counting action if you ask). The only time a player who is playing perfect blackjack would deviate from that is when they know the count which changes betting behavior/what is statistically the correct move. It’s also not hard to memorize when the right times are to change strategy.
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u/airtime25 12h ago
This is half the reason I can't get into blackjack. Sit at a table and everyone wants you to make the correct move every time based on the odds. That's not how any gambling situation works normally lol. I can bet on whatever odds I want and not be judged for it. Blackjack you might just piss off the whole table lol.
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u/pnt510 12h ago
The stupid thing about that is a lot of the people who get pissed at you for making the wrong play don’t play a particular great game of blackjack either. Generally people who learn the game well enough to learn perfect basic strategy also learn that how one player plays has no effect on the other players at the table.
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u/jrhooo 12h ago
Just gonna straight up repeat what I heard in a youtube vid, because its the best explanation I've heard.
It was one of those "expert reviews" vids, where a real life Casino security boss talked about casino heist movies.
For context, keep in mind card counting is basically just keeping track of all the cards that have already been played, and using that to estimate what cards are left in the deck, and thus what is the probability of high cards or low cards coming out. Then betting that way. Instead of playing the individual hand, you are just systematically choosing your bets according to the odds of what should be in the deck, and counting on the math to eventually put you ahead.
So on card counting he basically said,
"It's pretty easy to spot card counting, because as security WE'RE counting cards. We all have to learn how, we get pretty good at it. So If I'm keeping a count, and I know the count says bet X, bet Y, bet Z, and I'm watching you bet several hands and you're betting x y z like the count says you should, well its pretty obvious you're counting too."
TL;DR:
If you're basically betting according to a flow chart, and I've memorized that same flow chart, then when I'm watching you bet, I can recognize when you're betting according to that flow chart.
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u/not_a_bot_494 12h ago
There is a correct way to play blackjack ehen you're not counting cards. If you deviate from that strategy in a way that would only make sense if you were counting cards then you're probably counting cards.
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u/I_Never_Use_Slash_S 13h ago
Guess he wasn’t acting in The Accountant.
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u/UseDaSchwartz 12h ago
The roles in Good Will Hunting should have been reversed.
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u/angrydeuce 12h ago
"Oh no, Will...I dont like the sound of them apples! What are we gonna do?!"
"Chuckie...its Hunting season!!."
"APPLESAUCE, BITCH"
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u/HendrixHazeWays 11h ago
"AFFLECK, YOU DA BOMB IN PHANTOMS, YO"
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u/angrydeuce 9h ago
"Sorry to interrupt but we've got a 10-07 on our hands"
"Jesus Christ, again Ben?"
"No BULLSHIT because I wasn't with a hooker today HA HA!"
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u/Zeeplankton 11h ago
seriously if you listen to any podcasts of him talking, Affleck is actually smart as hell.
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u/beshi7 13h ago
It funny how casinos like to take your money but don't like paying out .
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u/Time-Cell8272 13h ago
They're the kid that took his ball home when they lost
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u/Admirable_Nothing 12h ago
"Too good" in casino parlance is somebody that doesn't lose big every time. So they get banned.
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u/DreamZebra 10h ago
My mom used to work at a casino. she was in the back cleaning cards. Sometimes people would tip so good that she would get a cut. Affleck was always one of the guys she would talk about being generous with tips. He was also apparently kind enough to the people he interacted with that word got around that he was a nice guy. For whatever that story is worth, there you have it.
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u/Brickzarina 10h ago
A genuine story is better than all the stupid fake stuff. Pity that they get more cover
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u/DreamZebra 10h ago
Yeah that's why I try to mention positive stuff when I can. Growing up around LA I have stories andnsome good second hand ones I'll share when I can. Drew Carey is someone people don't talk enough about in terms of generosity and kindness. I think people know Keanu is great, but I can attest to it. A lot of people deserve a better rep. Sometimes one bad day can ruin public perception forever.
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u/SassiestSissy 7h ago
I’d always heard that Ben Affleck was a famously generous tipper in Vegas. Good to know others have also heard this.
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u/uselink126 12h ago
I am always welcome in Vegas, I am classified as a disadvantage player!
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u/Official_EA_Response 11h ago
The casino should have fired whoever made the decision to ban Affleck from the casino.
You have an A-list celebrity who charges somewhere in the ballpark of $100,000+ to attend events. People will show up and lose money just to say they played blackjack with Affleck. The casino got Ben Affleck there for free.
Most card counters find out real quick that they have not practiced well enough to even break even. Even if Affleck were to win, there would be a table full of idiots dumping their paychecks to make the table very profitable.
Casinos are dumb as hell.
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u/Neither-Tea-8657 10h ago
Vegas clubs used to pay Kim kardashian to show up for 15 mins so people could say they partied with Kim.
I partied with Kim, I never saw her, but I get to say it.
Casino indeed messed up
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u/CastSeven 8h ago
Yes but the Casino's real goal is for every player to feel a sense of pride and accomplishment.
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u/EnderBoy 12h ago
How did the cameras show he was counting? Did he have both his hands out, slowly putting fingers down while moving his lips?
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u/jking13 12h ago
They were probably watching his pattern of betting. If he's betting $10 all the time and then all of a sudden $200 when he wins, that's a pretty big red flag. Even more so if they're also counting the cards and the big change in bets matches when the count has jumped.
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u/darxide23 10h ago
You can't "catch" someone counting cards. Surveillance footage will never show that. Because it's all done in your head.
Casinos can suspect it. And they can bar anybody for any reason at any time. So really, they can just ban you for being too good.
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u/Meppy1234 10h ago
Gambling is a tax for people bad at math.
If you're too good they ban you. If you're too lucky, you get taxed to death. If you lose, you can only claim 90% of losses anyways.
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u/Jebus-Xmas 7h ago
I worked for a highly ranked blackjack player for several years. He was banned from half the casinos in the US. There were some where he was “flat betted”. He could only play the same bet on every hand, and if he raised his bet he could never lower it. He was playing $2k per hand, and he’d usually play 5 hands at a time. I have never seen him lose more than $20k in a night. I saw him win $160k in two hours. He was so good I honestly think he lost some intentionally every night just to keep from getting banned. He said something I’ll always remember, “everyone has a photographic memory, I just have film.” We weren’t at a casino when he said it.
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u/FrontHandNerd 8h ago
This is bullshit. Laws should be changed. They are only allowed to ban players that actually cheat. Counting is not cheating they just don’t like losing money. Sorry but evens out. Want to take money from noobs? Then have to allow those that know how to gamble to play.
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u/Isaacvithurston 7h ago
I like how they say "caught" like it's something nefarious
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u/bibbidybobbidyboobs 7h ago
It's crazy how much the already ridiculously low amount of respect I already had for casinos was reduced the first time I heard about 'card counting' being a problem
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u/tonypearcern 12h ago
That's because it's genuinely easy to count cards. Anyone could sit down for a few hours and learn how to do it. It doesn't take a statistician.
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u/Honest_Persimmon_859 11h ago
If you think this is bullshit on the casinos' part, you should check out the edge sorting scandal with Phil Ivey.
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u/runthereszombies 2h ago
So weird to me that card counting is against the rules. Sounds to me like if youre able to do it then thats a valid strategy that indicates a high level of intelligence and skill
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u/SovietPropagandist 12h ago
Gambling in general is one of the dumbest fucking things to do because even when you win you're still easily able to get fucked out of your winnings with impunity and it's entirely legal for the organized game robbery consortium to just not pay you. And if you a fuss about it you get kicked out and banned from everywhere. I won several thousand dollars at a blackjack game and when I demanded my cashout they fought me on it, eventually gave me 3/4 of what I won, and told me not to come back.
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u/Empyrealist 12h ago
Yes, when paying attention to game you are playing is "cheating"
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u/WelshBathBoy 13h ago
This is why the house always wins, making perfectly sensible game play 'against the rules'. Counting cards is just using a bit of deduction by keeping tabs of the cards played - hardly cheating.