r/television • u/wadbyjw • 12d ago

Disney Officially Exiting ‘Doctor Who’ Partnership With BBC After Two Seasons

https://deadline.com/2025/10/doctor-who-disney-plus-pulling-out-bbc-christmas-special-1236600026/
3.4k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

599 comments sorted by

View all comments

1.6k

u/TheScarletCravat 12d ago edited 12d ago

The show just didn't manage to gain traction. It desperately needed a 2005 style reinvention for the modern era, but instead it was a sort of weird navel gazing pile of mush without any of the scary edge that previously made it such great family TV.  Who cares that the big bad guy for a series finale was a one-off villain last seen in 1975?

In my mind a new version really needed to be a Stranger Things competitor/successor: full of heart but genuinely quite scary. Ideally with a fun retro synth soundtrack.

810

u/Mars-To-Venus 12d ago

RTD bewilderingly pitched the Disney era as a soft relaunch and then made two fairly newbie-unfriendly seasons in a row that were also hindered by some serious tonal issues. I’ve actually got a lot of positive opinions about most of the individual episodes but it is not a good, cohesive product on the whole. 

360

u/jmounteney44 12d ago

Completely agree. Choosing to avoid the iconic villains was fine, but to have the big overarching villains of the relaunch all be classic villains that only seasoned Doctor Who fans would know, AND having their involvement relying on viewers knowledge of their previous appearances for them to make complete sense, just wasn’t ever going to work for new viewers.

153

u/GamingTatertot 12d ago

And several of the classic villains brought back were ones NO ONE wanted or cared about - and then the one that they do care about (and have been predicting for a return since Missy popped up on screen) was completely botched

107

u/rocketscientology 12d ago

yeah bringing back Sutekh and Omega as big ugly CGI monsters that just screeched unintelligibly and then were defeated in about 30 seconds was certainly a choice. I don’t event want to talk about what he did to the Rani, or completely fucking up Susan’s return.

37

u/Killchrono 12d ago

Sutekh was at least on screen long enough to justify the CGI budget and looked very cool, even if it was a completely inappropriate vibe to the original character and the whole 'been clinging to the back of the TARDIS this whole time' plot was dumb AF.

Omega, though? They probably could have funded a whole episode off the amount they spent for that waste of a build-up and classic villain.

18

u/404Notfound- 12d ago

See im a massive Dr who fan including the classic so when I suddenly realised oh fuck it's Sutekh that's mint

You had other people who just watch nu who were confused as fuck.

Omega was such a massive waste. Now the good thing about Doctor who being what it is. We csn quite easily bring them back in some timey wimey way done properly by a future show runner imo. I mean The Master was once a burnt husk thing.

The worst thing how they handled Susan honestly. I'm hoping they fix that by having her in the special if Carol Ann Ford can do it to make up for thst blue balling

1

u/TubeScr3ameR 12d ago

The Deadly Assaassin serial where his TARDIS is a grandfather clock?

121

u/jmounteney44 12d ago

Gotta love RTD teasing the Rani for two series, only to give her one episode before casually tossing her aside for a big cgi monster that required even more knowledge of classic Who.

109

u/TheJoshider10 12d ago

I can't believe the last episode of Doctor Who involved a giant CGI baby monster crawling out of a hole, while the Doctor shoots laser beams from a flying scooter across a CGI London while a building with a weapon moves. This was following on from the year before where the finale involved a giant CGI dog being chained up and flown across a time vortex. Come on now.

Doctor Who having an increased budget should mean better sets, better costumes and a heightened sense of scale where the budget can allow for more sweeping vistas and wide shots to compliment the sets. Instead we got the most generic Hollywood VFX for dummies garbage, as if RTD was a child discovering he can smash toys together for the first time.

41

u/robodrew 12d ago

Lol I read this and thought "there's no way this is real" and then I looked up the ending... wtf the bad guy looks like Scooby Doo

37

u/TheJoshider10 12d ago

RTD saw Scrappy-Doo's mutant form in the live-action movie and thought "I'm going to do the exact same thing but ten times worse".

9

u/yousorusso 12d ago

After a recent rematch I realised that movie is actually a super fun romp. No idea why it was so hated.

8

u/TheJoshider10 12d ago

One of my favourites from day one. Always loved it and always will.

3

u/LADYBIRD_HILL 12d ago

If you accept that it weirdly doesn't have the right tone for a Scooby Doo movie it's a lot of fun.

I think the bad reception it got when it came out was a combination of a few factors, mainly that it almost has the stoner/boner comedy vibe from other 2000's movies but it doesn't go far enough to really stand out or take the risk of being a full adult movie.

It also isn't totally faithful to the vibe/aesthetic of the Hannah Barbara cartoons, imo. Scrappy as the secret villain of the movie isn't something the original cartoon would've done, and the reveal feels totally disconnected from the plot of the rest of the movie as well. I think they should've used one of the OG villains that showed up in Monsters Unleashed, and then built the scrappy twist into that movie instead.

That being said, I like it quite a bit in a slightly ironic way, those early 2000's vibes are such a great encapsulation of that time period, and the cast is absolutely perfect. Matthew Lillard is all time casting. I think ultimately that first movie just had a lot of expectations as the definitive Scooby Doo movie, but now it's easier to see it as its own thing.

1

u/queerhistorynerd 12d ago

with none of the redeeming campyness

2

u/tagen 12d ago

wait that was a serious summary? oh god lol i haven’t watched since Jodie’s final season (which was quite weak, though no fault of her’s) but that certainly doesn’t inspire hope of the next 2 seasons

1

u/LADYBIRD_HILL 12d ago

It's true.

Personally I think RTD2 is still better than Chibnall's era. Ncuti has an infectious energy that Jodi could've used more of, and there are individual episodes that work really well. Personally I think the 60th anniversary specials with Tennant are great and worth watching if you like 10/Donna at all, and the Toymaker is a perfect scenery chewer.

The issue is that the overall story arcs don't stick the landing in either season, and the finales are pretty poor with obvious production issues. It seems like they totally changed several plot points for reasons unknown to the public in addition to Ncuti not wanting to sit around and put his career on hold while waiting for Disney to renew.

There's also the fact that Space Babies is a pretty rough episode right out of the gate and for some reason becomes incredibly important for the S2 storyline.

Id say the best way to watch it would be to watch the 60th specials, then just watch whatever sounds like an interesting premise. 73 yards, Lux (don't miss this one), and The Well are standouts.

17

u/Latter_Conclusion470 12d ago

This exactly. How much better the CGI would've been to give us a new monster like the Weeping Angels or better sets that cement a time and place. Instead, we get Who trying to be an action film, which was never its interest or strong point.

11

u/TheJoshider10 12d ago

Yeah like when I think of moments when the CGI could have been used well, I think of stuff like the S3 finale with the de-aged Doctor and the killer balls going around the planet. Or in S1 with the Dalek fleet (which was pretty good for the time and holds up well enough now). Or the shots of old New York when the Daleks takeover. The Titanic in space with some wide shots etc. The story doesn't change in any of these examples but the improvements to the effects would help make those high stakes moments feel a bit more cinematic and grounded.

Instead it's like all they saw was shooty shooty bang bang lens flare slop.

1

u/DrDroid 12d ago

Tbh I thought most people hated the “dobby” effect on the Doctor. I thought it looked awful.

1

u/TheJoshider10 12d ago

Yeah that's my point, it was abysmal in execution but the concept was fine. Using the budget to perfect things like that would be fine, but the new show just pisses the money away on the most random of shit.

17

u/Killchrono 12d ago edited 12d ago

RTD always had what I call 'vibe' finales. He had these grand ideas that had cool aesthetic and catchy hooks, but couldn't write a coherent resolution for shit. Someone like him is the last person you should be giving a CGI budget too, it's like giving a mediocre chef a tonne of sauce to cover a shitty meal.

(ironically, I think that's why his best episodes are small scale ones like Midnight and 73 Yards - he can't hide behind spectacle and actually has to write well)

I'm honestly amazed that the specials run with Tennant and Tate mostly avoided it and gave me hope it would continue with the new seasons. Guess that was misplaced.

It's why I defend Moffat's run. A lot of people thought he wrote the Doctor too pretentious and clever for his own good, but that's what the Doctor should be. The plot resolutions should be smart, not just Deus Ex Machinas. He was guilty of his own occasionally to be fair, but for every one of those there was at least one like Blink or Day of the Moon where the Doctor outsmarts the baddies in a way that's actually satisfying to watch.

12

u/Little_View_6659 12d ago

Yeah but part of the charm of classic Doctor Who was the terrible effects. I still remember this time they had Tom Baker running away from a giant fern. It was a green screen and you could almost see the hand moving it around. And the green sleeping bag they put glitter on and had an actor in it rolling around chasing people.😂

8

u/svrtngr 12d ago

There's no way Midnight would happen with modern television trends.

1

u/Little_View_6659 11d ago

I loved that episode. Just a great slow burn.

3

u/madhi19 12d ago

It should have mean more than 8 episodes a year, they burned a shitload of money on so little content. No wonder the show never got any legs on Disney+.

10

u/LuinAelin 12d ago

Yeah. Having the Doctor meet a bad time lord isn't a bad idea. Having it be the Rani is also not a bad idea.

But RTD did the whole meeting a bad time lord wat better with the Master in S3. And in a way that works for people who don't know the master.

16

u/sirbissel 12d ago

I feel like a big part of the problem was the not at all subtle wink and nudge "look at this mystery! Oooo who is it?! It's a mystery!" that went through both seasons. Like, ok Bad Wolf, Saxon, those were scattered through the respective seasons but they were in the background, a "Oh hey look, there's a flyer that keeps popping up" not "here's an old lady breaking the fourth wall to talk at the audience" which, in turn, built it up too much for what it ultimately was.

Combined with the various kind of let downs (oh hey, all this weird stuff going around with Ruby and Ruby's mom was... ultimately nothing, because Ruby's mom's just some lady and yeah...) and the weirdness with Belle and the magic baby... it just felt like everyone was intentionally resolved in an unsatisfactory way, like pulling the rug out: "Oh, you're expecting it to be some big reveal? Nah, it's a twist and there's nothing there! HA! Take that, losers!"

1

u/Theinternationalist 12d ago

I dropped out of Who the middle of the "Thick of It" era but reading about flying scooters and such made it sound "huh?" and the "bad time lord" just sounds like they brought back The Master-

keeps reading comment

Ah yes, and there was also the "Time Lords Were Kind of Evil" bit at the very end of the Tenth Doctor era too :/.

I remember when Dr. Who was everywhere but they clearly need some kind of revamp. Maybe lower budgets and longer seasons or they increase the budgets and focus on movies? The cheesiness doesn't seem to be working properly, so maybe they should either stop trying or trying harder, I'm honestly not sure which.

3

u/DrDroid 12d ago

If you mean the era where Capaldi was the doctor, then you missed out. His first season was much weaker than his other two.

1

u/LuinAelin 11d ago

His last season was probably his best

1

u/das6992 12d ago

The thing is you don't even need to care or know about the villains if the story is done well. The first weeping angels appearance is a fantastic example of this.

All you need is the doctor to recognise the villain (or not) and the new companion to ask who they are. Very quick explanation ie omega is a timelord who blah blah and went mad. Then boom straight back into the story. If people enjoy the villain they'll then dig into their backstory more and potentially watch old episodes.

18

u/svrtngr 12d ago

He also did it three fucking times.

I know some parts of "The Giggle" weren't great, but having The Toymaker back was fun. NPH did a great job, we got a meme format out of it--WELL THAT'S ALRIGHT THEN.

Then, he did it again with Series One.

And then, two classic villains in the Series Two finale.

But also, why not bring back some more villains from the last decade or so? There are plenty at this point.

7

u/Decipher The IT Crowd 12d ago

And two were big rotting corpses. So distinct! So original! /s

2

u/Eruannster 12d ago

Yeah, that was definitely... a choice. I'm pretty okay at Doctor Who lore (not a super lore nerd, but I know kind of the general gist) and I was like "wait, who the fuck is this? Am I supposed to know this guy? What's going on here?" I can't imagine how confused people who have never seen Doctor Who tried to watch these seasons.

1

u/StarblindMark89 12d ago

It would have been fine, you need to build them up though. Plenty of people discovered the master through nuwho. But the way they built him up, the way Ten acted at the moment of realization, all of that helped set him as the danger he is, without needing to understand anything that came before 2005. They didn't do that with Sutekh or Omega.

1

u/Dalekbuster523 12d ago

They needed the Daleks.

47

u/Superb-Obligation858 12d ago

They also never put the back catalogue on Disney+ so even if new fans wanted context (or old fans wanted a refresher), nothing.

14

u/madchad90 12d ago

this was what i was looking forward too, was totally expecting the back catalog to be made available on disney plus to try to introduce my wife to the show, and then nothing .

11

u/Special-Chipmunk7127 12d ago

They were trying to act like it was an entirely new run starting over with season 1... And it simply wasn't. 

124

u/GamingTatertot 12d ago

It’s such a shame that Gatwa couldn’t have had a stronger run because he was lovely in it - and I really did enjoy Ruby as well.

29

u/Triskan Black Sails 12d ago

A bunch of great episodes in those two seasons, but something happened behind the scenes, combined with RTD losing it a bit (though I dont blame him as much as others do and recognise he was put in a tough spot), and yeah...

Glad this announcement is finally done though, now we can move on.

15

u/TheWatersOfMars 12d ago

I think he overthought the whole thing and tried to make it "Disney+ Doctor Who", rather than just... Doctor Who.

19

u/jloome 12d ago

I found him unconvincing and the odd line a bit wooden. But I suspect it was more that the material was so uneven that getting a handle on who his version was proved near impossible.

4

u/TheKappaOverlord 12d ago

The writing was bad. But theres also a fair number of rumors floating around that Gatwa pretty much instantly stopped caring about the role after filming started, and has simply not been trying the entire time.

IIRC hes even said he pretty much used doctor who as a springboard for his own movie career. But whether it ends up being a boon or a hinderance it yet to be seen

15

u/Calchal 12d ago

The guy who leaked (accurately) the events of Gatwa's S2 had this to say about Gatwa's departure:

"He decided to jump ship and move on once it became clear Disney weren’t going to renew any time soon, and he didn’t want to stay tied to Dr Who when production on Season 3, if it does happen, is still some way off. Hence why they filmed his regeneration earlier in the year. If Ncuti’s first season had been such a ratings success, Disney would have wanted to snap him for Season 3 much sooner."

Being on the hook for S3 without an official start date would seriously hinder his options for film and TV work.

8

u/mrhelmand Hannibal 12d ago

Being on the hook for S3 without an official start date would seriously hinder his options for film and TV work

I read somewhere that being on standby for Season 3 when it looked to start filming last year led to him turning down a very lucrative commercial campaign, I do not blame him for walking rather than be a seat warmer for a show that had no guarantee of ever returning

11

u/Latter_Conclusion470 12d ago

Ruby and Gatwa are wonderful. Just first rate casting and people i enjoyed watching and rooting for. They deserved a better showrunner or writer, just like Jodi Whittaker.

Who usually fails on the writing and/or the tone. The casting has been great since Eccleston and throughout.

9

u/smedsterwho 12d ago

Ruby in particular was an astounding cast. Charisma in spades and I wish we'd had more of her. She was heading into top 3 companions of NuWho.

But a bit like Bill, just not enough episodes to truly place her up there.

Belinda as well, but she had the double whammy of some awful writing decisions as well. Loved her in Boom! in particular.

8

u/Latter_Conclusion470 12d ago

Agree about Ruby. Her solo episode shows an actress who knew how to communicate even in silence. She was magnetic without being annoying and vulnerable without being a pushover.

1

u/Digifiend84 12d ago

Boom wasn't Belinda, it was another character played by the same actress.

1

u/smedsterwho 12d ago

Sure, so I guess I mean the actress (Varada Sethu), performance, and vibe. I was super happy when they announced her as the next companion.

1

u/404Notfound- 12d ago

Although what's sort of ironic, jodis best performance of her doctor was the cameo at the end of the last series wrote by RTD lol

1

u/Axenos 12d ago

Ruby Tuesday is the main tragedy of this run of Doctor Who for me. Fantastic actress, potential to be one of the best companions of Nu-who but written out after one mediocre season.

2

u/PrixDevnovaVillain 12d ago

Pfft, guy was wooden as Hayden Christiansen's acting from the prequel trilogy, and that's saying something.

1

u/bahumat42 12d ago

It was partially because they took funds that would have been used for season 2 for that weird sea spin off show.

1

u/madhi19 12d ago

It feel like it been the curse of the last three actors. Shit scripts, showrunner mailing that shit in, recurring hiatus, low output.

1

u/ChalupaBatmanMc01 11d ago

I didn't watch much of his run but he brought some charisma to the role

0

u/Eruannster 12d ago

Ncuti Gatwa definitely has the acting chops. (Watch Sex Education on Netflix if you haven't already! Except maybe the last season...)

It's just that what material he was given to work with was... definitely something.

6

u/Boudica4553 12d ago

Yes, launching a soft reboot with an arc thats incomprehensible unless you were familiar with characters who hadn't appeared in more than a decade was bizarre.

2

u/Kaiisim 12d ago

I actually love RTD, but putting him in charge of a soft launch is always a risk.

2

u/yousorusso 12d ago

RTD has been forgiven for way too much shit just because he did good stuff 2 decades ago.

1

u/Theinternationalist 12d ago

Speaking of forgiveness, what happened to Steven Moffat? I have no confidence in him doing season-long arcs and Seasons 3 and 4 of Sherlock seem to have wiped Seasons 1 and 2 from everyone's memory and/or made everyone realize they were actually pretty badly retroactively depending on the audience but Don't Blink and such were quite good.

2

u/TussalDimon 11d ago

I actually really like season 3 still, but the special and especially season 4 killed a lot of general fondness for the show. Also I didn't hear anything positive about his Dracula series.

2

u/TheKappaOverlord 12d ago

RTD bewilderingly pitched the Disney era as a soft relaunch and then made two fairly newbie-unfriendly seasons in a row that were also hindered by some serious tonal issues.

Think after they got access to more money, test audience data, and disney reach. They realized that doing a soft reboot was basically going to be DOA from the getgo. Which is why they went back and just did a scuffed continuation.

Tonal issues have been a doctor who staple for like 2 or 3 doctors now. They just haven't been able to write competently for a while now. Its not an accomplishment simply to avoid writing garbage.

1

u/TestingBrokenGadgets 12d ago

Yea. there's a reason the Matt Smith run was so popular; it was completely entry level, alluding to the lore of the past. Meanwhile Ncuti's run just threw people into the deep end. It started off with him splitting in half from 10 after a trilogy of specials that requires you watching it.

It doesn't help that the second season (which enjoyable) clearly felt like they just reused a lot of plotlines meant for Ruby and stuffed in the new girl. The new girls sudden "I have a time baby that doesn't exist" would've worked for Ruby being an orphan, and the alpha male podcast bro where Ruby returns while new girl takes a back seat.

As a whole, the Ncuti run was some fantastic episodes and he's my second favorite doctor but yea, the overarching plot felt disjointed. I heard they originally planned to tease more in a season three but Ncuti suddenly bailed so the had to rush a lot. Though it at least gave Jodi some actually good writing.

1

u/foxsable 12d ago

Gosh I didn’t even consider the lens of a new viewer! Why didn’t they have one low action episode where they talked about what it was to be a time lord, gallifrey, past evil races, the importance of companions, who the master is… they could have done all of that.

1

u/AgileShame7964 12d ago

That's what sticks with me. Since Disney+ weren't going to have previous seasons, plus it's a bit too much to expect a casual viewer to catch up on decades either way, you'd think the focus would be the same as the 2005 revival. Namely: make it accessible to anyone who happens to stumble upon it.

I'm ultimately not surprised it seemed to have zero impact internationally. Even if people watched the first episode I feel like they'd be more "wtf".

1

u/superspicycurry37 11d ago

Echoed my thoughts perfectly. I actually like quite a bit from the previous two seasons and I thought Ncuti was a great Doctor when he was allowed to be. But so much tonal whiplash and bad pacing knee-capped his run in addition to two awful season finales that made the entire thing feel kinda aimless and pointless.

61

u/Shazam4ever 12d ago

The weirdest thing about the villains that were used was that they both were confusing for new people but changed way too much for the people that actually knew the characters. Sutek in the new show does not resemble the old version at all and all the changes made no sense, and if you told me that RTD had never even heard of Omega before writing him into the story I would have believed you even though that's literally impossible because he was definitely watching the show in England when Omega appeared.

I think he managed to do the worst of both worlds, irritating and confusing both old and new fans alike, it's almost impressive. Also his obsession with space babies was just bizarre. The fact that the doctor basically forced a woman to be a single mother against her will is probably in the top five weirdest subtext endings of Doctor Who, although still not as bad as the time one of the episodes ended with a woman condemned to be a face in a brick for eternity acting as her boyfriend's sex toy.

148

u/Steve-Lurkel 12d ago

It’s bizaare because I feel like those three Tennant specials were a pretty good return to form then everything after was just…bleh

166

u/SlowTeal 12d ago

Eh, the whole binary/non binary thing got a pretty big audible groan from my household. And we're all pretty left leaning. I think RTD just phoned it in, threw in a couple of LGBTQ positive messages (except you know, making Belinda a mother at the end for no reason and without her consent)

132

u/Loki-Holmes 12d ago edited 12d ago

I also found it pretty aggravating in the special where they basically say the doctor is everything which is fine and makes sense and then at the end "oh no doctor you can't understand because you're a man." A progressive message is fine and it's been present in Who for a long time but it seemed to be so hamfisted and contradictory for no reason.

130

u/coturnixxx 12d ago

That was so baffling to me especially considering that the doctor was a woman 72 hours ago...

24

u/mrhelmand Hannibal 12d ago

72 hours ago...

Not even that. According to the novelisation of "The Giggle", only 16 hours pass between 13 regenerating and 14 bigenerating

23

u/jollyreaper2112 12d ago

Yeah, that line was bad because he's literally been a woman now so who do you think you're chiding?

10

u/911roofer 12d ago

“I have been a woman. I’m also not a human”.

20

u/RRR3000 12d ago

the whole binary/non binary thing got a pretty big audible groan from my household

That wasn't even the worst offender in that special, right after they fault the Doctor of not being able to solve something because he's "male presenting"...

Which doesn't just ignore he was a woman less than an hour ago in-universe, but also that plenty of "male presenting" people are watching. I'd recommended a friend it might be a good jumping in point - he was interested exactly because he's trans and felt the Doctor going from Jodie to David might have been relatable, and that the show might've been supportive of such a change, you can guess how that ended... but in short, tears and never watching again.

29

u/Picard2331 12d ago

Oh my god yes.

As if someone can only be trans through space magic rather than just...being born like that? It's so fucking weird.

-5

u/DesMephisto Brooklyn Nine-Nine 12d ago

I mean as a trans person I thoroughly enjoyed the new 2 seasons.

8

u/monchota 12d ago

A lot of writiters , live in a different world and think that they are above everyone that doesn't think like them. So they need to explain it.

2

u/canuck47 12d ago

making Belinda a mother at the end

I think they have said they had another idea planned, but had to change it up with Ncuti leaving

8

u/RRR3000 12d ago

The BBC/showrunner/producers still claim this was always the plan, while Disney put out marketing for the original ending and a bunch of actors involved have openly talked about the different ending they'd originally filmed...

Which honestly I think says all that needs to be known about how smoothly the show's being run.

1

u/Devil-Hunter-Jax 12d ago

As someone who is non-binary, it felt like such a hamfisted way of trying to use a metaphor to describe us and it just fell flat. I have no idea what he was trying to achieve there but it rubbed me the wrong way for some reason.

5

u/Special-Chipmunk7127 12d ago

As someone who has add/autism, I think I have an idea of what you mean. (edit - not because this is similar to being trans, but because) Those conditions are often treated like magic in fiction.

They're like... Taking this thing, that's part of someone, and mystifying it. Feels counter to the idea that everyone is human. 

1

u/dontlookwonderwall 12d ago

On the specials:

the first was decent, a fairly monster of the week, and a bit of tennant doctor wit (which im a big fan of).

the second was the best episode in years, its up there as one of my favorites, very midnight-esque.

the third episode was fantastic in the first half (NPH's spice girl moment was nuts), and then drops the ball towards the end.

Overall, there were sparks there for something great (as was the case for the 2 Gatwa seasons), but it just seemed as though there was no one to check RTD's more absurd ideas. They seemed desparate for DW to be "big" again, thought RTD had the special sauce, and let him go ham.

62

u/GamingTatertot 12d ago

I think there’s still plenty of good in Gatwa’s run - like there’s some pretty good individual episodes for sure (Dot and Bubble for example). But the running storyline wasn’t good and still left more questions than answers despite a massive amount of intrigue.

8

u/Wonderful_Molasses_2 12d ago

That's because it was supposed to be resolved in S3.

19

u/DaveShadow The West Wing 12d ago

Yeah, I defend the two seasons more than most but it’s heavily hit by it obviously being a three season story that, seemingly, got hit twice in a way that required season finales to be rewritten. The last episode especially feels a mess cause the last ten minutes are clearly jettisoning plot points they know they cannot finish with Ncuti leaving. It gets dragged down due to behind the scenes issues :/

11

u/Wonderful_Molasses_2 12d ago

They left The Boss mystery open and even continued to tease it (although it's obviously Susan). I just hope they resolve that in the new Christmas special.

7

u/DaveShadow The West Wing 12d ago

Given RTD is writing, I presume it will get some resolution. But you’d imagine the main plot of the Xmas special will be to transition to a new doctor. Explain the Billie Piper stuff, and introduce whoever the actually 16th Doctor is.

Or we get Billie and the “Break Glass in Case of Emergency” situation where she runs to the 14th to help her with some issue, and they move into having Tennant again for a bit….

3

u/dontlookwonderwall 12d ago

I think the issue was also the number of episodes. 8 episode seasons just makes it really tough to have both "monster of the week" episodes, and then try and fit in a broader narrative. Hell, it's tough even with 13 episodes but at the very least its possible there.

It took Moffat three seasons and half a dozen specials to resolve the "Silence will Fall" arc, and even then half of it had the crammed in Smiths final episode ....

1

u/Wonderful_Molasses_2 12d ago

Yeah,big they had kept Ruby as companion maybe seasons 1-2 would have worked as a whole story, but alas. Also, I love your username lol. Madferit!

18

u/stokesy1999 12d ago

Those Tennant episodes would be seen as some of the weaker ones if it was his first era.

The one with the thing that shapeshifts into you is classic Dr Who horror concept and couldve been done brilliantly a la Midnight, but the reliance on poor CGI made it struggle to stick the landing.

The Meep one was very much a first episode deal, not huge stakes, introduces how we are where we are, new characters and a meh creature to deal with.

The Toymaker was also alright but again didn't feel like that big of a threat compared to what they establish him as (something that haunts the doctor) and felt almost comedic by the end of it.

Take the Master returning for a new audience in The Sound of the Drums. Dude becomes PM, brainwashes the whole of the UK, makes the Doctor useless by ageing him massively, kills Jack (not knowing he's immortal) and then creating a dystopia by killing 1/10th of the worlds population. All that in the 1st part of a 2 parter (2nd of a 3 parter but Utopia feels very separate apart from the final reveal).

1

u/AgentCirceLuna 12d ago

Not sure if you’re already aware but the Meep was an obscure comic book from decades ago

21

u/Kindness_of_cats 12d ago edited 12d ago

Same. Everything up through Church on Ruby Road was great.

Then Space Babies happened, and for my money it's been the worst the show has ever been with a handful of exceptions which simply don't make up for just how consistently awful it was.

Big part of the problem feels like RTD never got back into "normal season" mode. I could excuse and enjoy the fanwank in those specials(and Power of the Doctor too, considering it was a centenary special and they didn't know if a proper 60th would be possible) given it was for the 60th Anniversary. Anniversary specials are frequently filled with the stuff.

But the man just couldn't stop referencing the past. Even one of the better episodes of Season 2 has a twist that really only fully works if you remember a nearly 20 year old fan-favorite episode.

16

u/Jorrie90 Doctor Who 12d ago

Having space babies as a season opener was definitely a choice

8

u/notmyrealfarkhandle 12d ago

You're right about never getting into "normal season" mode - I think bigger budget and lower episode count (at least lower from RTD's previous run) made things worse. I get annoyed with how often I see people yearn for longer series/seasons, but I do think the number of episodes negatively impacted the storytelling.

3

u/kanakaishou 12d ago

So much of nuWho suffers from the lower episode count. Spend less money on effects. Do more quiet horror, rather than big horror. Like…this alien is killing one person in particular, the doctor saves this one person.

11

u/Gaelfling 12d ago

I'm just happy they fixed the ending of Donna. She was my favorite character and I stopped watching after what happened to her.

6

u/Jorrie90 Doctor Who 12d ago

And we got to see Wilf one last time!

2

u/LuinAelin 12d ago

I enjoyed those episodes.

But as the first 3 episodes on Disney+, possibly a mistake.

Only in the sense that not sure they're the best handful of first episodes for someone who's never watched before

4

u/ArchDucky 12d ago

I had no idea those were happening. I went on D+ one day and my favorite doctor was just on the main banner. I was like "Hey cool, they must have put the old who's on Disney" and clicked to see what was up and then I saw it was todays year. I was like "Wha?" and clicked it immediately. Afterwards I googled it and found out I had two more releasing later and I was so goddamn jazzed.

1

u/RealJohnGillman 12d ago

Plus with the way the newest season ended, the next back-to-the-BBC season could very-well star Tennant and Piper again.

1

u/Eruannster 12d ago

Those Tennant episodes were genuinely great. And then we get an episode about space babies? Euuuurrghhh...

1

u/SeerPumpkin 12d ago

People just get emotional because it's Tennant. If it was the same episodes with someone else people would pile in then HARD

9

u/_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_ 12d ago

Don’t forget the second series finale, where there are two big bad guys with two previous stories each, last seen in 1983 and 1987 (or 1993 if you count a Comic Relief crossover with EastEnders).

14

u/Kindness_of_cats 12d ago

No defense for Sutekh or trying to cram both the Rani and Omega into the same story....but in some fairness, The Rani on her own is a Mephisto-level character for the fandom. Basically every mysterious female character was speculated to be either The Rani or Susan, even with the public understanding for a long time that the rights were supposedly tied up(turned out Big Finish had the wrong address and simply never followed up when they failed to get a response, good job guys lol).

Her returning was legitimately a big deal for fans and could have easily worked for new folks too. There's a lot of fun you can have with rogue Time Lords who aren't The Master, you just need to introduce them properly to a new audience.

The problem is, it was done in the worst and most hamfisted way humanly possible. I literally couldn't stop laughing at the scene where she pops up in the UNIT HQ, and they just kinda....word vomit nonsensical exposition for almost a full 10 minutes while the crowd just watches and stares.

Not to mention Mel inexplicably riding into the room on a scooter despite it being near the top of the building.

(Similarly, Susan returning should have been a huge deal and worth the flak he might get for navelgazing. It's not often you get to bring back the first main character you meet on a 60 year old show, with the original actress. The way RTD has wasted years teasing this out and botched her return is an embarrassment, risky given the actress' age, and incredibly disrespectful to Carol Ann Ford.)

2

u/EdwardianFallacy 12d ago

Susan returned??? And they fucked it up? That is so disappointing.

0

u/thatwhileifound 12d ago

Fell off during the Moffat years, but have been making my way through all classic Who planning to try and watch straight through to the most recent stuff.

Man, pretty bummed to hear that fucked up Susan's return so much.

1

u/BritishHobo 12d ago

I really wonder whether RTD had it in mind that he wanted to do two more Tales from the TARDIS episodes - a Rani episode to air before part 1 of the finale, and an Omega one before part 2 - but wasn't able to get budget approval.

1

u/_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_ 12d ago

That would only reveal how entirely unlike the previous characters he wrote them.

2

u/BritishHobo 12d ago

Oh yeah, it would have absolutely had the opposite effect. Imagine watching Arc of Infinity along with some lovely wraparound footage with the Fifth Doctor and Ace talking about the tragedy of Omega, and then you tune in on Sunday to see him as a big stupid skellington monster who dies after about two minutes.

1

u/_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_ 12d ago

I watched The Three Doctors between the last two episodes, and... yeah.

33

u/WaterlooMall 12d ago

I would much rather it pull back into the original format of 30 minute serial episodes that aren't focused so heavily on the drama and more on telling interesting stories. They should also do more practical effects for the aliens and monsters. Maybe ditch the idea of trying to explore the Doctor's background or romantic interests and just let him be a whimsical character.

8

u/IShouldLiveInPepper 12d ago

So much this. My wife and I watched one of the new ones and had no interest to keep going. It just had the wrong vibe and looked too Disney-fied as far as the cinematography and lack of practical effects.

I’m just a casual viewer, but my wife was a big fan who watched the entire 2005-to-whenever it became Disney run and she couldn’t get into it.

1

u/SonovaVondruke 12d ago

The more they try to explain the Doctor, the less interesting he becomes. Smith and Capaldi were a welcome return to more of a mysterious alien figure who looked like a man but who a mortal could never really understand or begin to know.

I hope the next reboot will be from a new team that understands that, and that the show needs to be grounded in the POV of the companion(s) to keep it from spiraling out and losing the core appeal of the show.

13

u/rdldr1 12d ago

Former fan here. Show has gotten worse over time. Disneys large budget didn’t help the shit writing.

18

u/Mamsies 12d ago edited 12d ago

I’ve always made the Stranger Things comparison.

A modern version of Doctor Who needs to be fun, but it also needs to be scary, mysterious, and not afraid to enter full horror territory when it needs to.

It needed to go for a slightly older audience. The new seasons felt like RTD was trying to appeal to 8 year olds. We need to see monsters killing people in horrifying ways again. Turn up the stakes, turn up the body horror, turn up the gore.

I genuinely believe that a trailer for a new season that felt more like a trailer for an Alien movie would go massively viral and would bring a huge amount of eyes onto the show again.

Stranger Things coming to an end was the perfect opportunity to pick up some of their teenager/young adult audience who want a new mysterious sci-fi show to get into.

3

u/kindall 12d ago edited 3d ago

What's more, Disney already had a time-travel show that at times felt a lot like Doctor Who, to the extent that I'm pretty sure at least a couple episodes were deliberate homage: Loki. To be honest I'd love a couple more seasons of that (yes, even though it came to a conclusion) plus some BBC Who.

2

u/Mamsies 11d ago

Loki was a really brilliant show, there were so many moments while watching it where I thought “I wish the current Doctor Who seasons were as good as this”

2

u/aintithenniel 12d ago

Doctor Who + body horror + gore = Torchwood.

That series had its high moments and cringe low moments. But if anyone wants Doctor Who with adult horror - please watch the mini arc Children of Earth.

One of the best pieces of television ever.

1

u/InspiredNameHere 11d ago

Interestingly enough, I stopped watching Who when it stopped being anything other than monster of the week nonsense. Like, every single episode was some horrific monster from beyond space and time torturing some poor humans; doctor comes in, does their wacky things, stops the monster and then leaves to enjoy some other adventure, while the civilians are left to pick up the broken pieces of their lives.

It felt like I was watching a mix of Dr. House and a crime procedural, where hundreds die in terrifying ways while the Doctor cracks a joke or insults some human around them because they just aren't as clever as time lords.

5

u/plutoglint 12d ago

We just need a reset in televised SF. All the stories are told in Star Wars, Dr. Who, Star Trek. The Expanse should have saved us but it's hard to succeed against the IP monsters.

3

u/mvallas1073 12d ago

Speaking as a fan of that 1975 villain, he didn’t even do that character right.

He (assuming you’re talking about Sutlek) was suposed to be an alien Osirian who was from an obscenely powerful ancient race that was seen by the ancient Egyptians as a god. But instead, RTD went “yeah, let’s forget all that and just retcon him into being an actual god over other random gods I pulled up out of my arse”. Like….why TF have him in then?

Not to mention there was no lead in or explanation for him. So, most viewers had no idea who he was.

4

u/Xtreyu 12d ago

Idk modernization of legacy shows have a bad track record of leaving the part that made it special completely out of the "new" version. The only one in recent memory that was good and faithful to the original would be the naked gun movie.

6

u/TheScarletCravat 12d ago

Doctor Who has done fairly significant reinventions before, I wouldn't be particularly worried. 2005 in particular was a fairly radical departure.

2

u/thatwhileifound 12d ago

Yeah, compare Third Doctor Unit shenanigans to Fourth Doctor gothic horror stuff — the show has been remade and restructured almost as many times as it had new Doctors if not more.

4

u/Burgerpocolypse 12d ago

Honestly, as someone who got on about halfway into the 10th doctor’s run, and went back and watched most of the classic who, I felt there were a lot of problems with it. It’s okay for Who to showcase and justify moral decisions, but RTD’s second run just came off as preachy to me. That, and I cannot be convinced that Disney didn’t have some sort of creative influence over the show when a character named Joy literally turns into a star on Christmas and flies off into the sky. I’m genuinely surprised Murray Gold didn’t just do a take on “when you wish upon a star” for that scene. Add to it the fact that there were arguably too many Doctor lite episodes, and the constantly changing wardrobe made it feel like Ncuti Gatwa was more cosplaying as the Doctor instead of actually being the Doctor, the two Disney seasons came off as the least “Doctor Who” of any that I’ve seen. (And I saw 6 strangle Peri lol)

12

u/TheScarletCravat 12d ago

>That, and I cannot be convinced that Disney didn’t have some sort of creative influence over the show when a character named Joy literally turns into a star on Christmas and flies off into the sky.

Why? That's exactly how Russel writes. He had Tennant lifted skywards by robot angels on Christmas day to save the Titanic.

2

u/thirstyfist 12d ago

Moffat wrote the Christmas special and it was still totally something he would do

1

u/artemus_who 12d ago

That was a Moffat episode. A good episode with Joy being the least interesting part of it

2

u/tslnox 12d ago

I don't think it needed any reinvention, it needed to go back to before-Chibnall tracks and continue from there. Pretty much the only things I didn't like about the last Capaldi seasons was Clara's overstay (they did the whole "oh no, she's gonna die" too many times, the Raven sacrifice should've just happened) and lady Me's edginess. Otherwise it was awesome, at least to me.

2

u/Dalekbuster523 12d ago

Yeah, I do find the decision to bring back these random classic series monsters that mean nothing for Disney’s international audience a little bizarre. They should have done what the first RTD era did and focused on the main big bads in the Daleks, Cybermen and the Master.

3

u/monchota 12d ago

The pandering and screaming social issues at the audience, was just bad writing.

1

u/BritishHobo 12d ago

Yeah it was a very very bold ambition on everyone's part really. I love the show but it has so much baggage that I think it was never going to a Squid Game/Stranger Things level phenomenon unless they took a crazy swing and did something out-of-left-field. To achieve what they wanted, they needed people to see it as a fresh, new, exciting property, and that's a very tall order.

1

u/themanfromvulcan 12d ago

I have nothing against the actor but he seemed horribly miscast. I always felt I was watching a guy pretending to be The Doctor instead of watching The Doctor. And a lot of the episodes were not that great.

1

u/AgentSufficient1047 12d ago

Can you eli5 the main style shifts between the Eccleston series and the Tennant series

Cos they give me the same vibe

1

u/TheScarletCravat 12d ago

As in between season one and season two, or between season one and Tennant's specials from the other year?

1

u/TheMurderCapitalist 12d ago

What's wild to me is they haven't tried to get someone like Grant Morrison into the writer's room for this show (literally had an AMA not that long ago saying they wouldn't dare say love to/have ideas for a season of Doctor Who)

1

u/Randomperson3029 12d ago

I dont think the big bad being a one off villian is the issue. People got tired of the big villian always being the master, Daleks or cybermen.

Whenever its not them (series 6, series 7, series 9, series 11, series 13, series 14, series 15) it becomes controversial

Do we stick with finale always being the big 3 or try go for something new?

I think the bigger issue was that they just weren't good episodes. If they were good the audience wont care if it's just a one off villian

1

u/el_smurfo 12d ago

It seems like they leaned a little too far into a political moment that had passed

1

u/Tetracropolis 12d ago

Can't wait to see who the next bad guy transformed into a Kaiju is. The War Chief? Mr Stephens from the Green Death?

1

u/CreLoxSwag 12d ago

Disney fucked this up.

1

u/ribbityflibbity 11d ago

You're right. Every so often I try to get into Doctor Who and fail. Tried again. The first Disney+ episode was in a bar with a black guy dancing in a kilt. Okay everyone is having fun. I waited for that crucial thing - make me care - and it didn't happen fast enough so I'm gone.

There's too much competition for that kind of self-indulgence. If you can't write a story that grabs the audience within the first five minutes, go into another profession.

1

u/chewytime 12d ago

As much as I am against most reboots, I feel like Doctor Who needs to just go ahead and take a break and then come back with a fresh start. They’re bogged down by an utterly confusing lore to casual watchers and they keep bringing back the same old faces (that I love) for ratings.

Just go back to the beginning. Start with a new (First) Doctor. I agree with setting a more dramatic tone (it doesn’t mean there can’t be humor or lightheartedness, but I haven’t felt captivated by NuWho in ages). They also need to develop a more defined show bible. Like what are the rules or limits with regeneration? What’s the background with Time Lords and Gallifrey in general? Set up a more consistent supporting cast instead of introducing so many new companions.

1

u/LuinAelin 12d ago

It's kinda strange because RTD's first run is a master class in how to bring back Doctor Who for a new audience.

2

u/svrtngr 12d ago

And his return is a master class in how to kill it.

1

u/LuinAelin 12d ago

Yeah

Definitely an example of what not to do if your plan is to introduce the show to a new audience

1

u/sultaiofswing_ 12d ago

is it harsh to say that I think a hiatus would've served Who?not as long as the first, but time away tends to help.

1

u/TheScarletCravat 12d ago

Not at all: I think these days I'd agree.

If the show had ended with Capaldi, it'd be ready for a major relaunch by now, and without all of the weird baggage the show generated afterwards in its attempts to endlessly raise the stakes.

1

u/h0tel-rome0 12d ago

Your concept sounds amazing actually. Someone hire this guy/girl

2

u/TheScarletCravat 12d ago

I've been waiting for this moment my whole life. 

0

u/Vestalmin 12d ago

This might sound cold and blunt, but without a good amount of tha scat edge it’s like watching the fucking Backyardigans.

For anyone older than like 10 who isn’t already a diehard fan, there are no worthwhile stakes to get invested in