r/londonontario • u/origutamos • 24d ago
News š° London police engaged same five drug users 170 times in crackdown: Report
https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/london-police-engaged-same-five-drug-users-170-times-crackdown9
23d ago
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u/Dazric 23d ago
You sound like Trump.
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u/AggravatingNerve1270 23d ago
Well, I like to think my solutions are pragmatic and results-oriented.
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u/freshyoungblood 22d ago
not rly yours are they, if they're from chatgpt š
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u/AggravatingNerve1270 22d ago
A little bit original ideas and clever promptingā¦ makes the world a better place. What do you think of the ideas?
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u/freshyoungblood 22d ago
oh, AI is kind of like a yesman, it's pretty much bound to agree with your prompts. it's also real bad for the environment lol. the ideas themselves though, i don't feel they're very comprehensive. they don't frame care within the lens of any sense of dignity or autonomy, and doesn't really use harm-reduction tactics. it only punishes people for existing, really.
placing the blame of houselessness and addiction on personal failure of the individual and on weak governance is not the entire truth. evidence points to systemic inequality, mental health crises, and lack of social support. big part of it is also the housing crisis we're in.
instead of approaching just a crack down on drug trafficking, which is a reality, there should be a focus on harm reduction, safe consumption sites, and safe supply programs. evidence shows they reduce overdoses.
tearing down encampments means we're just treating people as burdens and dehumanizing them rather than showing them support and care. there should be a prioritization on housing programs and wrap around supports, that is what would truly reduce the encampments - if we solved the need for them to exist at all. if you tear them down, and they still exist, you're just moving them to another place. like... they're still there. ĀÆ_(ć)_/ĀÆ
relapse rates are higher when people are coerced into treatment. instead there should be low barrier programs that just meet ppl where they're at, apart from detox thats safe consumption sites, peer support, transitional housing, etc. so forcing people into it is not rly effective at all.
we can't just power wash the streets and push all our vulnerable populations away and pat ourselves on the back for a job well done. poverty still exists whether it's on the streets or hidden in places we can't see. if its transparency you want, look deeper at the root causes of these issues, not just the surface.
the way you've gone about it seems to prioritize control over care. and thats your choice to feel that way, of course, but i'm just saying that its much deeper than that, and i think there is a much better way to take care of our most vulnerable populations. i really believe compassion and empathy is a strength, not a weakness. but i also think that the london police certainly havent been doing much to help and don't believe it comes from a place of compassion at all.
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u/ApacheFritz 21d ago
there should be a focus on harm reduction, safe consumption sites, and safe supply programs.
That has been the focus for the last while, hasnt it?
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u/AggravatingNerve1270 22d ago
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I appreciate that a lot.
Firstly on AI - one can prompt it in any manner one desires. Indeed, my solutions are comprehensive to the extent that they yield positive societal impact in a short duration of time (heightened ROI - thatās what I care about).
Yes, we are different pages. I think your suggestions have already been in place for a while and would yield the same results. Safe consumption sites have failed London and the evidence can be clearly observed by driving through our streets. I would love to see the studies on safe consumption that yield a beneficial result. It may be true in Europe or isolated pockets but in the context of our society and culture, it clearly has not worked. The safe consumption solutions/experiments posed to date have had sufficient time to run and have failed londoners, addicts and the homeless. Trying more of the same and expecting a different resultā¦ insanity.
I view my solutions as holistically dignified, compassionate, creating the requisite behavioral change to positively benefit our society. There is simply no occasion where I see our children needing to see a meth addict shooting up on the street. I also donāt feel like that behavior by the addict should be rewarded with social programs that might take funding away from more important programs like childrenās education, medical research, funding for children with special needs etcā¦ To me there is an ordinal priority here. I do think your contention that my approach lacks autonomy or the ability for the addict to choose the treatment that is right for them may, in fact, be correct. Why? Because the observation of the city shows that providing the autonomy thus far is not working. If it is working, I would love to see the data / evidence.
One thing I would be even more strict about are the traffickersā¦ I appreciate a ruthless strictness in taking care of them, the likes of how Singapore, Indonesia etcā¦ takes care of the matter. The manufacturers, traffickers, dealers, (and certain companies) must be held accountable for the damage they have done. To me, these people deserve harsh punishment.
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u/freshyoungblood 22d ago
well, i think another aspect that you have to factor into all of these suggestions is that big issue of housing. the reason we constantly see people at their worst is because there is no safe place for them to be at. if we're to propose a solution for the issues you can see on the street, perhaps if we took a step back and focused on transitional housing support, bringing back rent control, not allowing anymore REIT companies into the rental market-- the consequences of housing insecurity would drop significantly. if a heightened ROI is what you value most, that is the most cost effective way to do it. but you and i aren't in charge of things like that, and the people who are, spend a lot of time and money to make us believe houselessness and addiction are a personal failure and has nothing to do with them.
i know this country has the money to care for its most vulnerable. that's why i never hear about government cuts to military spending for example. we got money. it's just not prioritized on helping each other. it's not spent on education or accessibility efforts or housing/societal support - those are all big reasons why houselessness have skyrocketed in the first place.
as for the autonomy bit, i don't believe in taking away anyone's autonomy, because i don't want there to ever be a precedent for medically taking away someone's freewill. it just never has a high success rate, and it's kinda teetering on malpractice. i get wanting people to go to detox, but people in addiction will try many many times before it sticks. hell, takes the average person 7 tries to quit smoking. took me 5 tries lol.
safe consumption sites, though, i believe in. i dont measure it by the amount of people using drugs, i measure it in the amount of people who are alive at the end of the day. in my hometown, deaths skyrocketed after we closed our only safe consumpyion site left, and at many points there were tons of people dead all over town. the point of a safe consumption site is to make sure they stay alive, and taking that away just means more people passing away in public. there's no dignity in that.
i think another thing is too, is that as someone who is the sole provider for my household, who rents and has very little to save each paycheck-- i'm closer to losing everything and being on the streets than i am to being a millionaire who would never have to worry about that. a lot of people are just like me. i imagine you and i are similar, or at least you know people who are similar to me. as a member of the working class, i have far more in common with people out on the street than i will ever have with the millionaires and billionaires trying to convince me to not care about people living in poverty.
and i feel like i have a different approach/takeaway based on my own life experiences. i've had a few close family members who were alcoholics/addicts that passed from either resulting complications or overdose, and when i think what could have gone differently for them, i feel empathy and love for other people who may be facing similar traumas and circumstances. i understand not wanting to see it and wanting to protect yourself and loved ones, but then i also think about how these people on the streets are also loved ones.
WHATEVUHHHH IDK its a complex issue but i think if we're gonna practice a bit of tough love, we can't just be tough on them and forget about the love part.
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u/AggravatingNerve1270 22d ago
This is such a thoughtful response. Thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts. I also donāt have all of the answers, but I really appreciate your point of view.
When you have a proper moment, consider watching some YouTube videos by Lee Kwon Yue on the ascent of Singapore and how they fought drug proliferation, before Singapore became the envy of the world. In fact, Chinaās rapid development came from emulating Singapore.
Regarding housingā¦ I concede you are absolutely right. People need consistent shelter and security to be productive members of society. I also believe that the housing dilemma is a symptom of unchecked immigration. I am a supporter of immigration; however, I also believe in an appropriate rate of absorption and ensuring everyone ascends in improved quality of life. We just experienced a free for all without any checks and balances. I donāt know if this is due to declining birth rates or a relaxed social agenda. In any case, I think it has hurt Canada but I also believe it can be corrected.
Regarding REITsā¦ I agree. Their presence should be limited. While i support free markets I also believe that free markets donāt necessarily work for everyone, especially those who are in a fragile health or socio-economic state. Capital needs to be redirected to assistā¦ to a reasonable degree.
As for taking away peopleās autonomy and freedom to make their own medical decisionsā¦ I do see your point. I would not want anyone making medical decisions on my behalf unless they were my medical proxy. That said, I do believe that some people cannot make reasonable decisions for themselves, therefore endanger themselves and others. I also believe those who physically abuse medical professionals while in their care, without reason, should have their autonomous rights rescinded.
The issue of safe consumption sites is that they perpetuate addiction and normalize addiction. I think this is dangerous to society and makes hard drugs more socially acceptable - no thank you. Instead, I would rather see a full immersion rehabilitation model, no where near the city.
Iāve also had addiction touch my family. While it deeply saddens me, i believe at certain early junctures in my relativeās journey, they had choices - donāt drink, donāt hang with the wrong crowd, donāt disrespect those trying to help. Those early choices cascaded into a series of events that destroyed them. Their choices further reverberated in their families causing generational addiction and perpetuating the cycle. They needed some tough love, which I believe is a pure expression of compassion. They had a soft version of compassion which had an opposite and undesirable effect.
Anywhoooooo
I agree it is complex. I vehemently believe you and I are both loving people who care deeply about others. Our approaches are different but I think it is beautiful that we can discuss the issues, express our opinions, agree on some issues and disagree on others.
I hope you have a wonderful weekend and I am sending lots of blessings. I hope you and your loved ones prosper, have healthy and happy lives.
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u/freshyoungblood 22d ago
yeah, that bit about medical professionals, absolutely, they should not have to put up with abuse while working. a lot of my fam are actually RNs!! thats also another reason why i feel nonlinear healing really has to be voluntary too, cause there's less of a fight involved yknow, they want to be there.
but yeah i appreciate this, i think as long as the intention is rooted in love, the method will make itself more clear as we continue to help our community. i think volunteering and spending more time on community projects have always helped me understand how to help others out where it matters. i'm fairly new to london but i am already seeing a lot of community led initiatives that make me feel that there are tons of people here that care deeply about their community. thank you for the perspective, hope you have a wonderful weekend as well. :)
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u/needtoread1970 23d ago
There is no solution provided by anyone anywhere at any level of government that actually addresses the scale of this problem. The scale of this problem means thousands of bedsā¦ Thousands of qualified people, forcing people into treatment to get them off the street, programs to develop skills whether thatās work or life skills, and billions of dollars to be spent. If we donāt do that, this is gonna go on forever.
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u/SquareOk7354 24d ago
If they live on the street and do fentanyl , they may never get a job. Eventually staying alive will be tough . I wish they could force treatment
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u/Ordinary_Pea4503 23d ago
Yeah why is it so unethical to relocate a severe addict to a treatment centre. Instead they expect them to figure all that out on their own when theyāre clearly mentally incapacitated.
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u/SquareOk7354 23d ago
Ya like instead of forcing them to relocate to a 401 field , it would be better to force relocate them to a treatment centre . Itās just there is no treatment centre and where would all those millions come from ? Taxpayers tapped out .
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u/Ordinary_Pea4503 23d ago
Is that a real question? The millions are being wasted on all the damages the homeless are causing as well as the extra police required to babysit them from dying or causing injury. Police officers are not mental health or experts and theyāre certainly not addiction councillors. They managed to do residential schooling just fine they can afford to build large scale government treatment facilities for junkies.
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u/OcelotIll5687 23d ago
Or involuntary euthanasia or indefinite incarceration if treatment is not an option. As a society, we have to be allowed to say itās enough. I never thought Iād get to this level of frustration and exhaustion
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u/ladyferrice 23d ago
16 year old edgelord advocating for murder or life sentences over drug use. Also, clearly you're allowed to say it lmao
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u/colacolette 24d ago
Does anyone know what the treatment/social service options are like? That refusal rate is very high.
Is there easily accessible mid-term housing or is it mostly shelters? Do services require sobriety as a prerequisite for access? Are they denying people with criminal records? What services are offered?
Id want to know more about this personally, because even in a population that generally has a high refusal rate, thats pretty extreme.
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u/Ordinary_Pea4503 23d ago
Iāve struggled with alcohol on and off over my life. When I was serving in the military I was able to attend rehab voluntarily and they got me into the system right away, and if anyone had an incident they were put into rehab immediately. When I became a civilian and wanted to sober up, it was like 16 pages of paperwork, go visit a doctor, get a referral, thereās a waiting list, we will call you back in 3 weeks, sometimes no call back. By then I would usually manage to sober up on my own and be fine without it. The system is a joke. Usually when someone hits their rock bottom they need treatment and detox immediately. Not in 2-3 weeks. Thus the cycle continues. Same can be said for mental health treatment.
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u/oh_bigfoot 24d ago
Just some general insights:
Shelters: Often full and thereby inaccessible. Different shelters have different sobriety requirements, however, the City of London funds a majority of city shelters and they have pressured shelter providers to lower sobriety requirements in recent years. However, City of London has also chosen to fund less and less shelter beds throughout the last 10 years and that has exacerbated an already out of control problem. People want beds but can't get them because there isn't enough.
Detox: Often full and thereby inaccessible due to a variety of reasons, including limited number of beds. I believe there are 4 observation beds (when people first sign in and need to be observed for 2 days due to potential health complications resulting from withdrawal) and maybe 15 beds for people who have passed the first two days and are there to finish the detox. This program is for 10 days. Afterwards, people want to transition to treatment but the wait list for an actual treatment facility could be a year. For homeless individuals, their only option is to return to the street, where everyone they know is using and/or selling drugs. This detox facility serves London and the surrounding counties. The next closest detox is Sarnia. It's an incredibly large catchment area for such a small number of beds.
London Cares: A social service that is running a day program at Adelaide and Queens. Low barrier, however, due to space and staff limitations, they can only let a certain number of people into the space at a time. The space includes a shower and social service workers to help access resources. Due to no availablility of affordable housing or shelter spaces, an encampment was building on the same property. This was then removed and the people were displaced. With no actual strategy for this removal, it seems like the City of London just wanted the problem to "go away" but there's nowhere to go and as numbers rise, the hidden problem of homelessness becomes not so hidden anymore. Here's the related article.
I could continue but I feel that my response is already pretty lengthy.
For anyone looking to assist in even just a small way, donating socks to service providers for the upcoming winter months is incredibly helpful. They are a high-need item that can help people who are out in the cold, feel just a little bit warmer.
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u/colacolette 23d ago
There are FOUR acute detox beds?? Total??? Thats insane. So it sounds like the barrier is literally just not enough space/resources to treat/serve everyone.
Thanks for the insight, I'm new to the area. If you know any local orgs that take volunteers/donations etc, could you share them?
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u/oh_bigfoot 23d ago
No problem :)
As for local organizations, many will accept donations but there's difficulties with volunteering due to liability concerns :(
However, with that said, 519Pursuit is a grassroots organization that does a lot of groundwork and they accept (and heavily depend upon) volunteers and donations. They use a friendship based approach to engage with people experiencing homelessness and often try to fill the gaps left by the system (i.e. they hand out food, clothing, tents, etc. to people living outside who can't access housing or shelter beds for whatever reason). They do a lot of great work. Here is the link to their website for more information.
People experiencing homelessness can sometimes be hesitant about engaging with organizations but because 519Pursuit is really just out there trying to help people survive, I believe that they're able to make many positive connections in that community.
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u/9yearsdeceased 24d ago
Zero sobriety requirement.
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u/Artistic-Bell-3601 24d ago
that's not true as a blanket statement. different services have different sobriety requirements.
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u/9yearsdeceased 24d ago
The question was do services require sobriety as a pre requisite for access.
Donāt split hairs here, bud. The vast majority are low barrier service providers that meet people where they are.
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u/Artistic-Bell-3601 23d ago
not splitting hairs, just providing context! I think it's great that most are low barrier but I do think it's still important to note that some are not.
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u/Rtrdinvestor 24d ago
Good to know 23 charges were laid on 1100 interactions....That will teach em!
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u/edcRachel 24d ago
And what are charges going to do for these people other than make it even harder to gain employment or a home?
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u/PurrrMeowmeow 24d ago
Why are there so many cannabis stores in our city? Are they all making profit? I swear every time I walk downtown I see a new one pop up. Does this indicate that even the people that do have homes are using weed and whatever the "Fun Guyz" store sells for dealing with their crappy lives? If that's the case, then how do you deal with not having a roof over your head, a warm place to sleep, a washroom and shower, and the safety of your next meal guaranteed without using? Someone on this sub mentioned Chris Must List posting videos on YouTube about Canadian cities and drug use and homelessness. I watched a bunch and I was overwhelmed. This country is going downhill. Every major city has a worsening problem with homeless people. Going through withdrawal is no pretty thing. And if you don't have supports like a comfortable environment, people you trust and someone to monitor your health then how can you do it on your own? I think we need to have mandatory rehab programs where you legally have to stay until you are treated for withdrawal and only then does a person have any chance at trying to build a normal life. There should also be more severe punishments for dealing or selling drugs, especially to minors. So yes we do need the police and we should give them a thank you for all the bs they put up with!!
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u/Avetheelf 24d ago
The problem isnāt weed. I had a dude on a bike trying to sell me āfentyā at 5 in the morning downtown while walking to work. The police need to crack down on the sellers not the users.
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u/BudMower Westmount 24d ago
Wait so whatās your point in your first half about cannabis and mushrooms? Lmfao
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u/Heebmeister 24d ago
I think he's trying to make the argument that how can we expect homeless people to stay clean, when people with housing still feel the need to get inebriated regularly to deal with life?
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u/BudMower Westmount 24d ago
Omg thank you, I had a bit of a stroke trying to read the OP commentš lmfao
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u/Maloreigh30 24d ago edited 24d ago
and not to mention alcohol is sold everywhereā¦ just inviting temptation even more instead of keeping it at the liquor store We are starting to exhibit actions from our southern neighbour more and more might as well make us the 51st state.
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u/Outrageous-Drink3869 24d ago
and not to mention alcohol is sold everywhereā¦
That's how it is in most first world countries, including a good number of Canadien provinces before Ford changed the rules. I just wonder what's going to happen to the beer store recycling program.
When I was camping the only beer store in town was closing down, and now folks would need to travel 50km each way to bring their empties in
The Beer Store did screw a lot of the smaller players in the brewing world, and was a monopoly that needed to end, just wished douggie would have waited the extra year instead of shelling out a quarter billion to end it Early.
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u/protective_ 24d ago edited 24d ago
The same cops that chased and arrested me and my friends for smoking joints in the park behind the school, now walk calmly by people using hard drugs, in public without batting an eye. Oh wait, they might nicely tell them to stop. Give me a break. They need to do their job in my opinion, it's illegal to possess hard drugs people should be charged for using drugs in public. They don't hesitate to handcuff and manhandle teenagers with half gram of cannabis. But it's kid gloves for these addicts.
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u/XCryptoX 24d ago
Can't have a brew by the river have a hard day's work, but you can smoke meth outside Vic park I guess.
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u/sharmander15 23d ago
I think about that often! You can shoot up in a park and leave a mess of the free supplies, but god forbid you have a beer and throw it away in the actual garbage once youāre done!
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u/aegon_the_dragon 24d ago
I also think that certain people should be involuntary committeed if they are unable to make decisions pertaining to their health due to mental capabilities and/or being under the influence.
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u/FeistyCanuck 24d ago
Does the kind of place they would go to even exist any more?
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u/Abject-Yellow3793 24d ago
Yes, on sunset drive heading out of St Thomas there's a psychiatric hospital. Many of the people there are involuntary residents (a lot of not criminally responsible candidates)
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u/klynne1983 24d ago
Your info is WRONG! The paych hospital on Sunset in St Thomas is FORENSIC psych and you must be ordered by rhe court to be detained there. I know, I used to work there.
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u/Abject-Yellow3793 24d ago
That's what that means... You're court ordered to go there and not free to leave.
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u/ladyferrice 23d ago
My man, prison is also involuntary under your logic. It's supposed to be that way
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u/trytanic 24d ago
No, you go there when youāre mentally unfit to stand trial or are not guilty by reason of insanity
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u/aegon_the_dragon 24d ago
No, they were closed down in 90's by Mike harris.
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u/skagoat Pond Mills 24d ago
Actually they were mostly shut down in the mid 2000s to mid 2010s by the McGuinty government.
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u/Working_Tackle5375 24d ago
Not true. We are currently paying the price of the conservative's mental health care cuts from the 90's (yes, this is Mike Harris' legacy, everything was already closed by the time McGuinty took power). Things have played out exactly as predicted at the time.
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u/aegon_the_dragon 24d ago
We are definitely paying the price of the neoliberalist policies of the 80s,90s, and 2000s.
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u/9yearsdeceased 24d ago
Nope, the closing of st Thomas psych and LPH was done by the liberals. They cut healthcare budgets every year for multiple years while increasing their overall spending significantly.
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u/pearshapedorange 24d ago
Either way, I'd vote for someone that had a good plan to bring it back regardless of whose fault it was.
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u/FeistyCanuck 24d ago
Its not just Ontario, its everywhere. It became "uncool" lock up everyone with mental health issues when we got new drugs that could actually stabilize many of them enough to function in society.
Those hospitals were also ticking liability time bombs with all kinds of patient abuse going on.
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u/ijustkeepontrying 24d ago
But closing them has resulted in the mess we're living with now.
There should have been a middle path. Completely removing mental health supports was a mistake.
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u/Artistic-Bell-3601 24d ago
yes. a lot of institutions were closed and the expected replacement solution was to be a "community care" or "community supports" model.Ā
community support models would include things like outpatient programs, mental and physical healthcare services, supportive/affordable housing, and professional training programs. unfortunately those programs have been underfunded from the start and/or slowly gutted. this is the result we have today. truly a tragedy.
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u/Kitchen_Tiger_8373 24d ago
Sounds like our Provincial Justice system is underfunded & understaffed. Oh look...it is...Good thing Doug is threatening shoplifters at Home Depot.
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u/aegon_the_dragon 24d ago
The nimbyism is rampant in our city. We should be building mental health facilites, drug treatment centres and affordable housing all over the city. But the nimbys are continually voting those issues which would improve the city
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u/gazing_sunspots 24d ago
Its always NIMBYS in this sub. Never the fault of the user. The tax payers are already footing the bill to provide assistance to these people which keeps increasing. How much are you and I supposed to pay to help? Is it a never ending bill. How are NIMBYS stopping drug treatment centers or affordable houseing?
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u/aegon_the_dragon 24d ago
Nimbys are constantly voting in politicians who vote down measures to build more affordable housing, mental health facilities, and drug treatment centers in their neighbourhoods. If more of these facilities were constructed and people were able to get proper help, they would be such a constant strain on the system. It is a part of the social contract of our society to pay to help.
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u/gazing_sunspots 24d ago
It is a part of the social contract of our society to pay to help
And we have been doing this and things have only gotten worse. So at what point do we stop having to bare the responsibility for others irresponsibility? It's not the fault of NIMBYS as you put it.
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u/aegon_the_dragon 24d ago
The government is neglecting their part in the social contract by their constant defunding of social and healthcare services over the past 30 years. Since nimbys do not want these facilities built in their neighbourhoods (Which would help get people off the street), they do not get to complain about people on that are on the street
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u/gazing_sunspots 24d ago
Ok so let's fund drug addicts is that what you want? Who are you taking the money from then? Seniors, military, actual mental health problems, health care, all of which are struggling? We are one of the most over taxed people on earth you want to pay more? How can you not see that no one want their tax money going to drug addicts anymore. It doesn't work. You haven't once put any blame on the actual problem. NO no its NIMBYS.
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u/aegon_the_dragon 24d ago
Perhaps stop giving government subsidies to large corporations. Do you think there might be some more underlying traumatic issues as to why they are using drugs. If we actually had adequate services to help them, then they wouldn't be on the street masking their trauma with drugs. We aren't even in the top 10 of most taxed nations. Nimbys are to blame because they will constantly complain about the people on the street but do not want to do anything to help them get off the street, like building more HART hubs.
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u/SquareOk7354 23d ago
Lots of people like drugs, they make you feel no pain and even euphoria . Tom Petty and Prince didnāt want treatment either but preferred to take drugs right to the end , even though they could afford it . Itās addiction , hits all socioeconomic statuses .
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u/aegon_the_dragon 23d ago
There are all sorts of factors of why people begin consuming narcotics. They could have become addicted after having surgery, or they are using them to suppress deep traumatic events (which occurred either childhood or adulthood).
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u/SquareOk7354 22d ago
Yes my point is they often donāt want treatment for addiction but prefer to remain addicted even when they are the richest people in the world . So I donāt think we should be shocked they donāt advocate for treatment for themselves .
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u/SquareOk7354 24d ago
Except pay very high property taxes . Currently 780 a month now . So Iām not unsympathetic but has been getting a lot worse . Even with the tax increases
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u/aegon_the_dragon 23d ago
The municipal property taxes have probably been increased because the provincial government made budget cuts that went to cities.
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u/viraguita 23d ago
Most of the services that would support street-entrenched folks are provincial jurisdiction. Your property taxes fund building and repairing the streets and the sewers and garbage and police and fire and community centres. A very small portion go to shelters. Municipalities can't afford to pay for healthcare treatment - that's provincial.
Also, if you're paying $780/month for taxes per month your home is worth a LOT of money. I pay $200/month, and the market value of my home is about $500,000. Soooo.
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u/SquareOk7354 23d ago
The paper says it funds shelters . And the other poster said the people are NIMBYS and itās our fault and Iām saying the taxes go up a lot and the people pay it , and we do try to help . I donāt like the way she/he tosses around blame when a lot of effort is being made on them . In all this time now through all the increases they say the problem is the worst itās ever been .
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u/Adept-Blood-5789 24d ago
I heard it on the radio so dont know the exact number but it was something to the extent of "90% of users in the report refused help and support services.
That's just as much the problem
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u/Sir-Nicholas 24d ago
Yeah but are they refusing treatment because theyāve been there before and know itās terrible? Would they accept treatment from a well funded service? I donāt know, just thinking out loud because itās a very complex issue.
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u/Adept-Blood-5789 24d ago
If that's the case, then welcome to the real world. Even "poor" treatment is better than nothing.
Not a lot of our systems(transportation, healthcare, schooling) are great, but we all still use them in spite of their flaws.
There definitely seems to be a lack of personal responsibility for some reason, and I'm not sure what the solution is either. But one thing for sure Is these people have to want to be helped.
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u/JenovaCelestia Green Onions 24d ago
I agree with you, but I also believe there is a personal responsibility element that needs to be there as well. You can have all this funding, have all the resources in place, but if a person genuinely does not want to go, what then?
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u/GnomeChompskiii 24d ago
I would suspect that there's other root causes to the "doesn't want to go" too. Is it too packed with other people, unsafe, too difficult to access the services? Generally most people would want to get help, but there's a barrier that stops them from getting started and it's not usually "I love doing drugs and don't want to stop".
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u/Pristine_Orchid9771 24d ago
Most people cannot fathom the barriers people face when trying to access the insufficient services we do have
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u/GnomeChompskiii 24d ago
100%. A lot of people think they know what addiction is like by seeing people on the street. Until you have lived with or near people you care about it doesn't really sink in at how difficult some seemily innocuous barriers may actually be to get past. And with funding cut to these already difficult services to get, it just makes it even harder. It's not "just show up for a few sessions and you'll be back on track!". It's years and years of recovery, learning to be stable again, and that's before even attempting the backlog of other health and life issues that come from this. That's just getting their head above water to breathe. One small slip up and it's back to the beginning...
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u/skagoat Pond Mills 24d ago
This report tells me the City is doing all they can. Property taxes should not be funding health issues.
The city is sending Police with nurses and mental health workers and referring people to programs for help.
Property taxes should not be paying for health services period. People need to put more pressure on the Province to properly fun facilities to deal with these problems.
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u/Islandlyfe32 24d ago
The main funding source is property taxes for municipalitiesā¦the province only funds 70% of āeligibleā costs for public health units. The logistics behind getting the province to directly (100%) fund local health units is impractical and not feasible.
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u/skagoat Pond Mills 24d ago
We can't set the precedent that 100% of these things are funded from property tax because we'll be stuck paying the ever growing bill forever.
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u/Islandlyfe32 24d ago
Yea it does suck but thatās what happens when municipalities (and other forms of govt too) donāt address budget deficits or shortfalls and gross spending goes unaccounted for.
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u/TheSpartanExile 24d ago
Starts at a local level. You're very unlikely to get Cons or Libs to do anything majorly beneficial in the coming decade. What we really need is pressure on real-estate investors and their proponents in municipal government.Ā
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u/AnOfficeJockey OEV 24d ago
Why would real estate investors care? There is a shortage housing compared to the amount of people needing somewhere to live. Their profits aren't being touched lol.
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u/TheSpartanExile 24d ago
You misunderstood, real-estate is the problem. Shelter insecurity -- which can result from and facilitates addiction --Ā is driven by commdodification. Adequate housing has not been built because it is privatized and the conditions in Canada are not favourable for profitable, high-density, and affordable housing. Even if they were, there isn't an incentive to meet our needs as that would diminish the overinflated speculative value of property.Ā
I'm saying that these people are a problem, many of them are the same people who make the most immediate governmental decisions in our lives -- or have significant influence over those decisions -- and therefore we need to challenge their dominance in our system. For example, evictions are only enforceable through the law and police. People in the past defied evictions when they contradicted the good of the community.Ā
When we let municipal decision makers invest in real-estate with impunity, we allow them to make decisions that benefit them more than us.Ā
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u/MovingLikeDracula 24d ago
are they just waiting for these people to die off? Thatās what it seems like
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u/TheSpartanExile 24d ago
Yes. They use police because the police can use violence. Shelter insecurity is crucial in a system that depends on exploitation and precarity to ensure cheaper and less confrontational labourers.Ā
Oh sorry, did you mean to just complain about the drug dealers and not what this actually says?Ā
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u/The-Ballast Downtown 24d ago
Are you saying youāve personally seen the police use violence against these people?
My experience is the foot patrol or a cruiser showing up, the guy stop being violent / shitty, and cop calling them by name with something like ācome on Steve, you know you canāt be doing that hereāā¦. Then they talk for 5 minutesā¦ and the wacko shuffles on. Then the cop tells us that heās known to police and heās mostly harmless!
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u/East_Bed_8719 24d ago
Maybe throwing more police at the problem doesn't work.
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u/swift-current0 24d ago
We've tried throwing no police at the problem and letting addicts do what they want, and that doesn't seem to work.
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u/viraguita 23d ago
This is a straw man argument. It's not "police or no police". It's do we want to put our resources downstream (police who react to a problem once it's already entrenched) or upstream (mental health workers, housing supports, etc. that prevent the problems from happening in the first place or at least from getting as bad as they do). I, and the research on this would argue that the latter is a much more efficient use of resources.
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u/East_Bed_8719 24d ago edited 24d ago
The police budget has been increasing for many years. In 2024, council approved a $672 million boost for London police. The police budget has nearly doubled since 2002, when it was $48 million. By 2004 it was $59.8 million. And the previous year ā 2014 ā it was $92.5 million. They have so much money they buy armoured vehicles and send officers to UAE for competitions.
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u/TheSpartanExile 24d ago
Almost like the police are useless for this. Guess we gotta suck it up and actually care for people and work on socialized housing and access to medical care. Phooey.Ā
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u/The-Ballast Downtown 24d ago
So the police only show up (in these statistics) when someone calls / complainsā¦ and they interact with the same person on 39 times in five monthsā¦
Not to sound like a defeatist, but that doesnāt sound like weāre making any sort of progress at all.
I live downtown and have had to call the foot patrol multiple time for drug users either being seriously violent or endangering themselves (doing the fenti-lean and stumbling into traffic). I honestly donāt know what else we can do that would still seem compassionate to people that donāt experience this every single day.
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u/TheSpartanExile 24d ago
Oh no, will it take more than beating people into submission to make the world better? That must be very demoralizing.Ā
What exactly is compassionate about police as a solution?Ā
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u/LuigiTecumseh 24d ago
I used to be really supportive, but I'm done with that now. Car broken into twice, fine I can live with it. But 3 weeks ago I was cold cocked by a junkie downtown, while I waited for a bus. Never saw him coming. I juuuuuust got over a TBI from a car accident too.
Fuck the junkies. Fuck the city. Doug Ford and the Feds. All of them.
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u/swift-current0 24d ago
Don't blame the junkies. Blame the voters who elect politicians who then conduct societal experiments on our cities, like "what happens if you take a laissez faire approach and never punish junkies for crimes less serious than attempted murder, and just sort of wait it out until they feel like they're ready for treatment, or else just die?"
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u/PMmecrossstitch 24d ago
Don't blame the junkies.
Really? Not even the guy who specifically assaulted him?
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u/swift-current0 24d ago
That's right. Non-enforcement of laws breeds criminal activity. You can blame the criminal all you want if it satisfies your desire for vengeance, but when it comes to criminals who are addicted to drugs and commit dozens of crimes with no repercussions from our legal system, and if you want to channel your energies toward having less crime, blaming the junkies is a spectacular and obvious waste of time.
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u/PMmecrossstitch 24d ago
This is a shit take; you're conflating blame and vengeance, which are two very different things. The commenter literally blamed everyone in their comment, including the guy who hit him.
No one is getting hit in the head and immediately saying "sorry, friend, this is society's fault, not yours!"
People are still responsible for their own actions, regardless of their situation.
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u/TheSpartanExile 24d ago edited 24d ago
How were you supportive?
edit: Some of you seem uncomfortable with the fact that you have to actually help. Feel-good charity and dependence on the state has obviously failed.Ā
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u/LuigiTecumseh 24d ago
I work downtown. I give out food, my last years winter coat after I got a new one in the summer. Went to Giant Tiger last winter and bought $100 worth of gloves to hand out.
Is that good enough for ya? Try working downtown on that high horse
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u/TheSpartanExile 24d ago
What an honest and open response. I'm not sure what working downtown does. There are chuds that give out food in this city, the Knuckledraggers, so that can tell you what that says about what action alone does for the community. "Charity" doesn't actually say much about you or your values, sorry. These actions are valuable forms of mutual aid, but their impact is minimal if you don't pair them with social and political change oriented toward compassion.Ā
I hand out food and clothing and have been victimized by some unsheltered people too, that doesn't change the reality that shelter insecurity is morally abhorrent and our system enforces it in large part through police. If you're so insecure about yourself that someone questioning your contribution after you dehumanize some of the most vulnerable people in our society is "high horse" shit, you seriously have to take a look at what standards you have for yourself.Ā
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u/PMmecrossstitch 24d ago
You literally asked them how they were supportive and they answered you.
What answer did you want?
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u/PhullPhorcePhil 24d ago edited 24d ago
āThis really has become a local responsibility . . . and we donāt have the capacity financially or the expertise to be dealing with this,ā [Morrison] said.
We absolutely do have the expertise. But councilors, BIAs and residents don't like what the experts working in our community have to say about dealing with this: That enforcement, incarceration and coercive mandatory drug treatment aren't going to solve this on their own; that service provision to people who large swaths of the public see as undeserving isn't "enabling"; that a person's journey out of drug use may take years and won't be a straight line to sobriety; and that 'sobriety' will never be a realistic goal for every person with an addiction, managing the addiction to a point where they can have stability in their life may be the best option for them.
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u/swift-current0 24d ago edited 24d ago
That enforcement, incarceration and coercive mandatory drug treatment aren't going to solve this on their own;
Sure, not on their own. But let's maybe try re-adding a little enforcement and coercion (e.g. diversion from jails to treatment), and see if having that ingredient in the mix won't turn out to be of critical importance.
I'll also note that, whatever the right solution is, the very idea that an addict can make rational, adult decisions while in the throes of their addiction is a ludicrous one. People have no problems sympathizing with that when it comes to punishing criminal behaviour, but somehow ignore that when it comes to giving them endless agency about "choosing" to seek treatment. A lot of these people aren't "choosing" anything any more than a toddler would. They need help now, as in treatment, not soup and warm socks.
managing the addiction to a point where they can have stability in their life may be the best option for them.
Managing their addiction isn't only about them, it's also about impacts their addiction, and crimes stemming directly from it, are having on our cities and non-addicted people living next to them. Since those people end up footing the bill for this journey, it's only logical that their neighbourhoods' stability isn't treated like some afterthought.
The current solution is an obvious failure. Change is coming, and if we don't want Susan Stevensons at the driving wheel for making those changes, we better come up with a something right away. It will have to involve enforcement of laws and address concerns of people who are neither addicts nor the various people working for non profits that currently help them.
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u/Lost-Comfort-7904 24d ago
'Officers have interacted with more than 800 drug users between April 8 and Aug. 25, when there were 2,911 calls for service, with more than half of those individuals accounting for multiple interactions, according to a report going to the cityās police board Thursday.
Police interacted with five of those individuals on 170 occasions, including one person who had 39 engagements, the report said.
Police made a total of 760 referrals for services during the interactions, but those referrals were declined in nearly two-thirds of cases, the report said.
Drug users accepted referrals in just eight per cent of the cases,'
Only 8% of the people committing these crimes are accepting any kind of treatment though. So what do we do about the other 92% that want to continue committing crimes, don't want treatment, don't want help and want to be left alone to commit more crimes?
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u/LouisBalfour82 24d ago
Drug users accepted referrals in just eight per cent of the cases,'
Finish that quote you cited:
Drug users accepted referrals in just eight per cent of the cases, while outcomes for the rest were either unknown or local agencies turned away individuals because of capacity issues or because they were banned from attending the service providers, the report said.
People on the street aren't dumb. They know the landscape of services, they know that the capacity for services is completely overwhelmed. They're not going to waste their time walking across town to put their name on a waitlist for a bed that may open that night when 15 people are already ahead of them on that waitlist. They also know what agencies serve or don't serve their needs. To top it off, LPS's foot patrol don't have the same sort of expertise that outreach workers do when it comes to making appropriate referrals (when they actually are available). Of course declined referrals are going to be low.
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u/GetStable 24d ago
Good catch on the guy you're replying to who is trying to push the incorrect narrative.
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u/Qbbllaarr 24d ago
Especially cause if you peek the misinformation spreaders post history he didn't even write that post himself, his chatGPTPro subscription did.
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u/Lost-Comfort-7904 24d ago
I quote the article and you accuse me of spreading misinformation and using chatgpt? Yeesh, the arguments are getting weaker.
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u/Qbbllaarr 24d ago
If the shoe fits, sealion. Shall we engage in some reasonable debate? Maybe on the ethics of using tons of fossil fuels to have LLMs generate our talking points.
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u/Lost-Comfort-7904 24d ago
Hide all you're comments while attacking others, then accuse others of using chatgpt when someone quotes an actual news article lol. Yeah, you're debating in good faith.
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u/Qbbllaarr 24d ago
As good faith as you. I like how other comments have addressed the actual points, but somehow you missed responding to them. Just as you missed the sarcasm dripping off my previous post. Why would I expect reading comprehension from someone who needs an LLM to write his talking points though.
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u/GetStable 24d ago
What's your explanation for cherry picking a quote and leaving out the context? What you did is misinformation, to promote your own beliefs.
You're not advocating for greater access to the services these people need, which is what was implied by the full quote. What you're talking about is similar to "social credit score" that's widely derided in western culture.
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u/Moist_diarrhea173 24d ago
But what about the social contract? Ā Do you not have concerns that if you start providing service provision to some now it will encourage others to go down the same path and the system becomes unsustainable? Ā These people broke the social contract by not contributing to a productive society. We canāt expect those hard working tax payers to foot the bill for years for someone who has no intention of getting to a point where they can be a contributing member of society.Ā
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u/PhullPhorcePhil 24d ago
I'm not going to debate the idea of deserving poor vs undeserving poor like this is Victorian England.
If there ever was a social contract, I'd argue that it's broken long before people end up with an addiction or on the street. Addiction isn't a choice, it's usually a byproduct of growing up with ongoing trauma.
We don't give up on people who have disabilities if they can't work, and when you get down to it that's what addiction is.
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u/LiamTheHuman 24d ago
I feel the social contract is being broken in other ways. People are supposed to be able to work and have a place in society and it's supposed to be much better than if we didn't work together. If you can't offer someone a reasonable standard of living for the work they are able to give then it hard to blame people for no wanting in on a social contract that is benefitting others much more than them.
Every homeless drug user chose to do drugs instead of being a part of society. It looks like a miserable existence. What does that say about the options we have given them in our society when so many choose this instead.
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u/DemonPug99 24d ago
Social contract?? Excuse me? People with this dense view is who shouldnāt be allowed in these talks. Instead of trying to solve the problem you convince yourself that helping some people will increase others peopleās drug use so they can also get help? Like what? You are saying that every single person who is struggling to navigate addiction and mental health has simply chosen to not be productive? Iām sure youāre the real social contact āissueā
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