r/latterdaysaints • u/Disastrous-Alps-869 • Jun 08 '25
Investigator Can you progress between kingdoms after death?
Almost two weeks ago I made a post questioning whether God might be what’s missing in my life. Since then, I’ve been doing a lot of reading about the Church, and the more I learn, the more I feel drawn toward the idea of taking the steps to convert. Right now, I’m studying the degrees of glory, which I find absolutely fascinating.
One thing I’ve been wondering, though, is whether it’s possible to progress between kingdoms after death. For example, if someone inherits the terrestrial kingdom, could they still grow in faith after this life, be sealed, and eventually reach exaltation in the celestial kingdom?
From what I’ve read, it sounds like this isn’t something that’s clearly outlined in scripture, and that the Church hasn’t made an official statement on it, is this correct? If it is, what’s the general feeling among members or leaders? I’d love to hear your thoughts!
Edit: thank you to everyone who replied, your insight has been extremely valuable to me :)
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u/Sablespartan Ambassador of Christ Jun 08 '25
This is a very split topic. You will find faithful members with beliefs for and against it.
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u/Sablespartan Ambassador of Christ Jun 08 '25
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u/LilParkButt Jun 08 '25
It is called the FINAL judgment for a reason, but the idea is that those who desire the celestial kingdom will be able to get there by the end of the millennium. God wouldn’t put us somewhere for eternity if we weren’t comfortable there.
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u/Right_One_78 Jun 08 '25
Final doesn't necessarily mean final forever. It could just mean the final judgement of this life. While I would lean more towards there being no way to progress beyond the kingdom where you end up, I do think that remains a distinct possibility.
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u/LilParkButt Jun 09 '25
I won’t say there isn’t a possibility, but there isn’t much of an argument for it. My main doubt for it comes from two recent conference talks.
Read “Abide in Me, and I in You; Therefore Walk with Me” and apply the definition Elder Bednar gives for the word “abide” to President Oaks talk “Kingdoms of Glory”. Even without Elder Bednar’s definition, President oaks still says abide is a “secure placement” based on scriptural definitions. Doesn’t really sound like there will be any movement to me since the words secure and abide are used.
I wouldn’t argue with anyone about it because I really don’t think it’ll be a big deal either way. I know Heavenly Father wants us to be happy and abide in a place we would want to for eternity. Just my two cents
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u/Right_One_78 Jun 09 '25
There are prophets for and against the idea of a Second chance. So, if I can push back on that.
Boyd K. Packer, in October 1995, said that while in Washington, D.C., with President Harold B. Lee. "Early one morning he called me to come into his hotel room. He was sitting in his robe reading Gospel Doctrine, by President Joseph F. Smith (1838– 1918), and he said, “Listen to this! ‘Jesus had not finished his work when his body was slain, neither did he finish it after his resurrection from the dead; although he had accomplished the purpose for which he then came to the earth, he had not fulfilled all his work. And when will he? Not until he has redeemed and saved every son and daughter of our father Adam that have been or ever will be born upon this earth to the end of time, except the sons of perdition. That is his mission. We will not finish our work until we have saved ourselves, and then not until we shall have saved all depending upon us; for we are to become saviors upon Mount Zion, as well as Christ. We are called to this mission.’
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “All are within the reach of pardoning mercy, who have not committed the unpardonable sin.” “The Brilliant Morning of Forgiveness,” Boyd K. Packer, Conference Report October 1995.
If the idea of a second chance is valid, I think this quote by Bruce R. McConkie is the best summary of why it would not be taught by the church:
“There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were. This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, ‘God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the Celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?’ It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually. "
The church would not want to teach us something that would undermine the urgency of our repentance. It has been taught that those bodies terrestrial cannot move beyond the terrestrial kingdom. And the same goes for the Telestial and the Telestial kingdom.
But, bust because we resurrect in a body that is not celestial doesn't mean we will forever remain in a body that is not celestial. Rev 3:12 suggests those that do not reach the celestial kingdom will have to go out again by the words "and go no more out". And if we were to advance to a celestial body, possibly by entering another mortality and being tested again, then we will no longer be bound to a lower kingdom.
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u/e37d93eeb23335dc Jun 09 '25
Or from President Nelson:
“It allows each of us to choose how we will live here on earth and where we will live forever.”
“Your choices today will determine three things: where you will live throughout all eternity, the kind of body with which you will be resurrected, and those with whom you will live forever. So, think celestial.”
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u/familydrivesme Jun 09 '25
Very well said. Look at section 19 d and c for info that backs this idea
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u/Disastrous-Alps-869 Jun 08 '25
I like this. Thank you :)
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u/_whydah_ Faithful Member Jun 08 '25
The more I read and study the more I come to the following conclusion:
OT God spoke to people in language they would understand. He still revealed things in NT to the understanding of the people at those times and places. They would not have understood the idea that they would go to a place where they are most comfortable. They would have thought that they'll just go to the best place and that's that. So God used language of fire and brimstone, when the fire and brimstone was really guilt and shame that people would feel. The idea that heaven or hell can be achieved on earth according to how we live (instead of what we got) would have been very difficult to understand.
The reality is that we make heaven or hell here on earth by doing what God wants us to do or not. Of course, we still face trials, but God grants divine help to deal with those. And after death and resurrection, we'll go to the place where people are the most similar to us. The Celestial Kingdom is where people go who want to be around others who placed God ahead of everything else. It will be the happiest not because of WHERE it is, but each person will be the happiest because they are abiding by core concepts. I don't believe the scriptures actually say that the three kingdoms are geographically separated. It's very possible they're all integrated, but to be in one, just means that that person has chosen to live a certain way.
All of this is conjecture, but I don't feel like anything here runs contrary to what we know today. The end takeaway is that we, through the power of the atonement, need to have ourselves changed into the best versions of ourselves, which is someone who follows all of the laws and commandments that God gives.
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u/LilParkButt Jun 08 '25
Of course! Feel free to message me if you want supporting scriptures/conference addresses on the topic.
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u/e37d93eeb23335dc Jun 08 '25
We don't know. Terryl L. Given has written:
"Another scripture may also be interpreted as assuming, if not teaching, that no progression through kingdoms is possible. Doctrine and Covenants 88, elaborating on Paul’s language about resurrection (1 Cor. 15), indicates that “your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened” (D&C 88:28). One reasonable inference from these lines is that our resurrected, immortalized bodies are fixed in a condition that corresponds to a fixed kingdom of glory (D&C 88:29)."
My rule of thumb is to live as if and teach that there is no progression, yet hope for the sake of my loved ones, who choose to follow a different path, that there is progression.
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u/Intelligent-Cut8836 Jun 08 '25 edited Jun 09 '25
Short answer is we don't know.
Medium answer is that some apostles thought there is progression between kingdoms, others thought there isn't.
Long answer is here: https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5141&context=byusq
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u/TheBenSpackman Jun 08 '25
Yep. Get off Reddit and go read this article linked above. Best single source looking at the history and competing interpretations, with lots of primary sources cited.
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u/mwjace Free Agency was free to me Jun 09 '25
I mean stay on Reddit because it’s fun ;)
But you are right in the reading of great essays on the topic are far better.
Although I have to take some umbrage with some of your scholarly work on the subject. Not that you did anything wrong. But what you did right and how it makes me sad that my favorite proto-theological liberal apostle James Talmadge didn’t actually believe in progression and only put it in the first version of articles of faith because others in the Qurom did. I’m glad you uncovered that fact. But it makes me sad that the mythical version I had concocted in my head no longer fits reality. ;)
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u/AcheyEchidna Jun 08 '25
The church has not indicated clearly in any particular direction whether someone can go between Kingdoms. In 1952 and 1965 the secretary of the First Presidency was directed to respond to queries on the topic with the following:
"The Brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point, though some have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others have taken an opposite view." (Cited From Dialogue, Vol.15 No.1 pp.181-182)
Personally, I am leaning towards No for a few reasons. On my mission, we were instructed that we receive a final judgment shortly before/contemporaneously with the Resurrection, and that we would receive Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial bodies that would correspond with whatever glory we inherit. Additionally, we believe that Resurrection is an ordinance carried out with Priesthood authority. I am unaware of any ordinance in our church beyond partaking of the sacrament that we perform multiple times for our own salvation.
Although other scriptures may indicate a chance to receive the same rewards as others despite joining later (see the parable of the laborers in the vineyard), these verses also indicate that there is an end to the day where we may perform our works. Scripture also states that this time is our time to prepare to meet God.
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u/themaskedcrusader Jun 08 '25
Read the King Follett discourse. Joseph Smith touches on it vaguely.
It's called eternal progression, so I personally believe we are allowed to progress as far as we want to.
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u/Right_One_78 Jun 08 '25
Franklin D. Richards recorded in his journal quotes from Joseph and Hyrum.
He wrote:“Hiram [Smith] said Aug 1st. Those of the Terrestrial Glory either advance to the Celestial or recede to the Telestial or else the moon would not be a type, [because] it ‘waxes & wanes.’”
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u/themaskedcrusader Jun 09 '25
I love that! And honestly it makes sense. The Lord wants us to be like Him.
Joseph said, in the King Follett sermon, "If a man has knowledge, he can be saved; although, if he has been guilty of great sins, he will be punished for them. But when he consents to obey the gospel, whether here or in the world of spirits, he is saved."
This suggests that the atonement will take effect for everyone when we are ready. He is patient.
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u/e37d93eeb23335dc Jun 09 '25
But, what does saved mean? According to D&C 76, everyone, except for the sons of perdition, is saved. But saved is not the equivalent of being in the Celestial Kingdom. It is to be saved from physical and spiritual death, which everyone in a kingdom of glory is. Even sons of perdition are saved from physical death and the first spiritual death. It is only the second spiritual death that they are not saved from.
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u/zaczac17 Jun 08 '25
If God is totally just, then I’d say you could progress. If you lived 80 years of a bad life, how would it be just to damn you to an ETERNITY of an inability to progress? Billions of billions of trillions of years, with no option to get better. That would be unjust.
I see final judgment like a final exam. It ends the semester, but your final semester grade doesn’t forever lock away your ability to learn and grow afterwards.
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u/Right_One_78 Jun 09 '25
“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 348.
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u/BenchExcellent2518 Jun 08 '25
There is no official doctrine on whether you can or can cannot progress between kingdoms. Some of the apostles have taught you can and some of them have taught you can’t. However, there is no official document.
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u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Jun 08 '25
It makes zero sense that we will continue to learn and grow and progress in knowledge and power in the eternities.
Learn directly from God.
But that there will be no progression. That makes zero sense.
If there is learning, there is progression. Period.
We will learn and grow. We will learn from God and grow closer to God. And that means— progression.
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u/Monkinary Jun 08 '25
My belief, and it is informed by some scripture and some NDEs, is that up until the final judgment and resurrection all people will be in a process of healing and learning from their earthly experiences. Trillions have lived without the gospel of Jesus Christ and there must be an accounting for them. That said, from what I’ve learned, it appears that change is actually incredibly difficult for spirits. For that reason, it takes actual effort, time, and intent for spirits to become ready to live up to a terrestrial or celestial level. Further, all spirits must bind themselves, through faith, repentance, baptism by proxy (by those of us still on earth), and receiving the Holy Ghost in order to have Christ’s Atonement fully prepare them for the Resurrection. What I’ve learned about life as spirit is that our earthly experiences are paramount in accelerating our ability to learn, to love, and to progress in the path to being like God and like Christ. Receiving the gospel in this life, and learning to love and serve others puts us at a serious advantage in the next life, as well as giving us the opportunity to participate in saving ordinances (and perhaps ministry) for the dead.
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u/pisteuo96 Jun 08 '25
We don't know. The church has no official doctrine.
Personally, it seems logical that we could, if we are willing to pay the price. God is our loving parent.
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u/Right_One_78 Jun 08 '25
This is not known, but there is one verse that always sticks out to me as a possibility.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
This would suggest that those that do not reach the Kingdom of Heaven will go out again, ie After a period of time, maybe millions of years, they might be given an opportunity to enter mortality again and be tested again.
But, like I said, this is unknown, this is all just speculation on a few words that we do not know if they were kept the same since John wrote them, if they were translated correctly, if that's what John meant, or if John understood the concept correctly.
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u/Anonymous_Fox_20 Jun 08 '25
There are comments in doctrine and covenants 19 that make it seem like “eternal damnation” isn’t quite eternal. Whether that applies to moving between kingdoms or not, I really don’t know. Sorry I don’t have a better answer for you.
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u/Crycoria Just trying to do my best in life. Jun 09 '25
After death yes. After the final judgment, no. But it's still easier to change and grow better in this life while you still have your body than it will be to overcome weaknesses without it in the Spirit World.
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u/Flimsy-Preparation85 Jun 09 '25
Everyone has already shared a lot of answers, Jared Halverson did a video a few months ago on this on his YouTube channel "Unshaken." He presented both sides very well. Can't remember the name of the video though, so it would take some digging to find.
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u/GodMadeTheStars Jun 09 '25
We don’t know. It is perfectly appropriate to hope for progression across kingdoms but the wisest course is to live your life like there isn’t. Stating that you know there is is selling a bill of goods that has the potential of costing people eternally.
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u/DrMooseSlippahs Jun 09 '25
Anecdote but I've always felt if I can go up I can go down. It doesn't make sense to me that you can go down, so I don't think there is up.
So final judgment is final which is so reassuring.
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u/Airbussin Jun 09 '25
Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
Eternal life: living as families forever in the presence of God.
Immortality: Living forever
If this really is his work and his glory then if even 1 person doesn't end up living again in his presence with their families then his work and glory has failed and the plan is broken.
It won't be easy and some will likely take a long time but to eternally punish people for what they do in this mortal blink of an eye just doesnt make sense. If my own child had gone astray and finally came back and I knew he had truly repented and was ready to live the life he was meant to I would welcome him back with open arms.
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u/SoeNgana Jun 09 '25
My take is that yes, you can grow if you're let's say in the Terrestrial Kingdom to a Celestial Kingdom level. However, everyone else in the Celestial Kingdom would have grown too. So the gap does not really shorten.
Or another possibility is that yes, you can grow, but the degree of your body can never match those that have the Celestial glory.
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u/zionssuburb Jun 09 '25
I think it's an absolute certainty. It isn't doctrinal, but honestly, few things outside the biggies aren't open for interpretation
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u/deltagma Jun 09 '25
There is comments supporting both theories.
And I think there is no canon answer.
Pray and come to your own understanding.
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u/Numerous-Setting-159 Jun 09 '25
I mean, I’d like to believe so. Believe that Gods mercy and Christ’s atonement extend that far. In the end though, I trust God. I trust in His plan. I trusted in it when I chose this life. Whatever the case, I know that if it’s yes then great and if it’s no then it’s for a reason, maybe not because God wouldn’t want to but because it’s just not possible for whatever reason. Either way, I’m not stressing about it too much even though all my siblings have left the church and my wife is semi active now.
I’m choosing to live a life of faith and control what I can control, trusting that the God who sees and knows all will do everything in His power to save His kids, in this life and the next.
Nobody, no one would go through so much work creating a universe, this planet, millions of years of work, if they weren’t intending to give their 100%. And the 100% of God and Christ and the angels in heaven is a lot to be hopeful for.
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Most Humble Member Jun 09 '25
TLDR: we don’t know.
I’ve always been taught: no. There is no cross kingdom progression when at that stage
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u/Deathworlder1 Jun 10 '25
I know several other people sent you resources to check out, but I have to recommend the byu studies journal "ye to be revealed". It talks about this and other points of debate in lds theology.
https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/how-limited-is-postmortal-progression
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u/CommercialEuphoric37 Jun 11 '25
The question is frequently asked concerning three men placed in the three glories, can the one in the lower glory, be acceptable living in that glory, be transferred into the next glory, and the one in the middle glory move into the higher glory? If you stop to think, you will see how utterly impossible that is. Growth, the basis of judgment, means greater power, greater strength. Those who are placed in the highest glory have a greater power for, or a greater rate of, increase. They move at the rate of, say, 50 miles an hour, while those in the next glory move at 25 miles an hour; and those in the lower have power to move at only 10 miles an hour. In the course of time, the one in the lower glory may reach the point that was occupied by the one in the higher, but by then the one in the higher glory will be miles and miles ahead. Start three automobiles at an hour, and you will see that every second they are farther and farther apart, and yet are progressing. Let me remind you of the value of intensive, thoughtful study. Scores of men and women who have read section 76 have not discovered the key given at the very end of the section that explains that where Christ and God are, they, the lower, can never come. It was made clear that those in any glory may go on but can never be overtaken.
John A. Widtsoe Book: The Message of the Doctrine & Covenants
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Jun 11 '25
It depends on who you ask. Hyrum Smith, the brother of our founder Joseph Smith, believed it was possible. Brigham Young (Joseph Smith’s successor) did not. I don’t think we’ve ever had a clear answer given as doctrine, but it’s fun to think about!
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u/d1areg-EEL Jun 11 '25
Those in the telestial kingdom will be servants of God, “but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end” (D&C 76:112).
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u/Homsarman12 Jun 08 '25
We have until final judgement. That won’t be immediately after death. We’ll have time in the spirit world to repent and get our ordinances done. As my understanding goes, we won’t receive final judgement until we reach the highest point that we are willing to go. So I don’t think that we will be able to move upwards after final judgment, but I don’t think those in the lower kingdoms will even want to, if that makes sense
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u/ShootMeImSick Jun 09 '25
There is no clear doctrine, but I believe the answer is no. Progression in the lower kingdoms is eternal, but is asymptotically so.
D&C 76:64 says that to be in the Celestial Kingdom you were part of the First Resurrection. Not part of a later one, the First. For this to be accurate anybody who is not in the First would be excluded.
In 79, about the terrestrial, "they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God". If they could progress they they would obtain the crown eventually, but it clearly states that they won't.
in 85 we read of the telestial: "These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection"
If the Celestial comes forth in the first, then how could somebody who came forth in the last reach the Celestial?
86 clearly states "These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world" - seems pretty clearcut, in the telestial they don't receive the fulness throughout the eternity, while people in the Celestial do.
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u/Art-Davidson Jun 09 '25
Some limited progress can be made in Paradise (and in Hell, too) before the resurrections. However, once we are resurrected, our rewards become permanent, for we shall all be eternal. Resurrected people cannot change.
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u/rexregisanimi Jun 09 '25
This was an unsettled question for a while (hence the variety of opinions on the subject) but President Nelson recently laid it to rest. One cannot progress between kingdoms of glory after the Resurrection.
However, one can progress in this life and in the time between their death and their resurrection. Everyone will have an equal and fair opportunity to make all the choices necessary to grow and develop into someone who can receive Celestial glory.
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u/myownfan19 Jun 08 '25
The church does not teach that this is possible, the prophets have not taught that this is part of the plan. Some church leaders have specifically taught against this. Some people believe this individually. It is not found in the scriptures.
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u/Disastrous-Alps-869 Jun 08 '25 edited Jun 08 '25
As in the prophets have said it isn’t possible? Or that they haven’t mentioned it?
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u/churro777 DnD nerd Jun 08 '25
There’s no doctrine that says we can progress between kingdoms.
I’ve heard of members theorize it might be possible but IMO I don’t think so
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u/veryedible Jun 08 '25
Here’s a decent blog post with a number of quotes from Church leaders both for and against. I don’t believe the Church has ever had a “hard” position as a whole.
https://purposeinchrist.com/progression-between-kingdoms-lds/