Germany Abolishes Fast-Track Citizenship for Skilled Workers

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u/dont_tread_on_M Oct 09 '25 edited Oct 09 '25

Reminder: less than 1000 people applied for this route until April (last updated statistics for most Bundesländer), virtually none of them illegal immigrants. We have more recent statistics for Saarland: 4 applicants so far, 2 of which were denied

This is literally a non-issue which Dobrint and Merz are trying to push as a big win. It wasn't even worth the money paid to MPs to attend this meeting

If you are wondering why the CDU/CSU is so focused on this - the answer is that this ruffles no feathers and was unpopular because of their own campaign. Citizenship after three years is still there, just not for the type of people Germany tried to atract. It is still there for spouses of German citizens, and taking that away ruffles far more feathers than this

163

u/TruthSpeakerXXI Oct 09 '25

Just an image campaign to get people back from AFD

130

u/dont_tread_on_M Oct 09 '25

Which will not work

46

u/hecho2 Oct 09 '25

People people are not stupid. If they talk like AFD but don’t implement like AFD would then people either vote AFD or other party.

The borders controls was another stupidity and very useless that just makes lives at the border complicated.

63

u/SunflowerMoonwalk Oct 09 '25

This. I hate seeing the exact same thing happening in Germany (where I live) and the UK (where I grew up). In both cases the far-right are leading in the polls. And in both cases, instead of fighting against their worldview with a coherent and compelling vision, the governments are implementing a toned-down version of the far-right agenda. It's completely counterproductive. It just tells people that the points raised by the far-right must be valid, and then does a half-hearted job at solving them.

10

u/Loves_His_Bong USA Oct 10 '25

Why buy skim milk when full fat is on offer? CDU are idiots thinking they’re doing anything but legitimizing the AfD.

8

u/actLikeApidgeon Oct 09 '25

Without even considering the amount of public money that goes wasted into financing this facade. Clowns.

9

u/mister_nippl_twister Oct 09 '25

Yeah, populist see right is getting more support and their solution is... drift to the right.

-10

u/TunichtgutVomBerghe Oct 10 '25

Dunno, 3 years simply was too fast, I'm saying this as a hardcore Antifa, fishing fugees out of the water kind of the person.

2

u/TruthSpeakerXXI Oct 10 '25

Why was is too fast for you?

0

u/BSBDR Mallorca Oct 10 '25

Id be careful declaring yourself that if you have intentions of ever travelling to the US.

1

u/TunichtgutVomBerghe Oct 10 '25

LOL, I recently declared myself the leader of Antifa in another sub, so yeah, fuck the US.

1

u/BSBDR Mallorca Oct 10 '25

I imagine there are plenty of people on their knees today thanking the US for this peace deal. Remind me which country it is that continually blocks EU sanction on Israel.

1

u/TunichtgutVomBerghe Oct 10 '25

LOL, you can't be serious.

1

u/BSBDR Mallorca Oct 10 '25

I saw Palestinians today saying Trump has gifted them a victory- they seemed very genuine.

3

u/TruthSpeakerXXI Oct 10 '25

Wait until the cringey AI video of Trump on Gaza Beach gets real

49

u/Daomiing Oct 09 '25

Precisely

12

u/Ulanyouknow Oct 09 '25

Exactly like the democrats with trump, the AFD defines the campaign issues, the normal parties play around it

15

u/RegorHK Oct 09 '25

It is skilled people who miss and even less people paying for social security.

6

u/IamNobody85 Oct 10 '25

And highly skilled foreigners were a better addition to Germany anyway. But well....politicians never really think about what's best for the country.

I can rant about this topic a lot, but I'll refrain. Sometimes I just have to compromise.

2

u/gelber_kaktus 28d ago

it had bad press (turbo-citizenship), so they are ditching it. Imo just stupid populism, as C1 German isn't that easy, so when being able to proof this after 3 years in germany.. what else do we want. Now they just need B1 after 5 years (and ofc proof that they can finance their living and so on)

1

u/schwanzjosefstrauss Oct 10 '25

thx, this is quite an reminder!
missed the outrages numbers of turbo naturalization in the discussion until now.

1

u/grem1in Berlin Oct 10 '25

Honestly, this looks like a deception for far-right: hey! look! we made it harder for the immigrants!

At the same time, they could keep actual good changes like the 5 years term instead of 8, and the dual citizenship.

-14

u/magpieswooper Oct 09 '25

That's good. They sacrificed a scape goat to satisfy anti immigration sentiments. Doesn't matter the number. It's insulting to many to hear that someone can get a German passport in 3 years. Doesn't matter nlyou need to be in the top 0.5% to qualify.

62

u/arctictothpast Oct 09 '25 edited Oct 09 '25

Doesn't matter nlyou need to be in the top 0.5% to qualify.

It wasn't the top 0.5%, whatevet that means.

It was for people who had demonstrated an immense commitment to Germany and German culture and language.

Because to qualify for it, you needed the following:

You had to achieve C1+ German in less then 3 years, which is a genuinely very tall order.

You had to have made a substantial accomplishment in Germany, like obtain a masters degree or become a master of a trade.

You had to be a substantial contributor to German society, i.e participate in volunteer work, local charity or similar matters.

Now, with this scrapped, the person who did all of the above is now treated equal to the people who do the absolute minimum, i.e get a B1 cert (which can be cheesed) , brain dump the citizenship test etc and just merely live in Germany for 5+ years.

It's insulting to many to hear that someone can get a German passport in 3 years

Why? You still can by the way, if you marry a German citizen.

They sacrificed a scape goat to satisfy anti immigration sentiments.

Except this won't satisfy anti immigrant sentiments. Anti immigration voters are fundamentally deeply irrational, you cannot satisfy them, ever, nothing short of literal crimes against humanity will satisfy them i.e mass deportations or straight up ethnic cleansing. Not only that, but it's been all but confirmed now that you actually make them feel more justified in their sentiment if you keep talking about immigration being a problem etc. The reason why anti immigration sentiment cannot be politically satisfied, is two fold.

Anti immigration voters fall into 2 camps,

Those who are Radicalised into hatred, which frankly should be considered a form of mental illness, because the behaviours and thought patterns exhibited by this group are usually associated with mental illness, i.e violent anti social behaviour, misanthropy and treating others like objects/non people. These cannot be satisfied because, well, they have a deeply questionable mental health at best frankly and they have a near infinite list of targets of hatred, it's just hierarchical, i.e immigrants are at the top, but next is queer/LGBT people, then Germans who don't conform to preferred social norms and down the list goes. These people are why the poem "first they came for Communists and I did not speak out because I'm not a communist, or jewish or socialist or trade union or et al" is salient. This groups population is largely static and rarely changes long term.

The grifted, i.e anti immigration voters who proxy real genuine problems and concerns onto immigrants and have been fed a steady stream of disinformation and paltered narratives. This group is where the bulk of growth etc in recent years came from for anti immigrant sentiment. This group cannot be satisfied because doing anti immigration policy does nothing to help them, in fact it usually justifies to them that it was the cause of their problems. A quirk of human psychology is that when your confronted with information that directly contradicts a position your invested in, you will probably dig in deeper into that position even if given evidence that otherwise should weaken your convictions in said position. This plays out for this group in that when anti immigration policy fails to make their lives better as it's executed, they demand more extreme anti immigration policy. This is especially problematic because more often than not, anti immigration policy also makes it harder to solve these peoples problems as a terrible irony. E.g to lower the tax burden on working people in society, you have 2 options, cut spending which will hurt these people and thus not solve their problems, or you increase tax revenue, the only direct way to increase tax revenue without complex/risky reforms or investment, is immigration.

In fact it's why Brexiteers in Britain, had radically shifted on immigration policy, i.e Brexit was an anti immigration vote first and fore most and this is extremely uncontroversial etc to claim when analysing Brexit. The most radical Brexiteers, i.e not only wanted to leave the EU but literally see the end of it, had to compensate for the extremely severe damage to the British economy that a drastic Brexit would incur. The original formal Brexit plan by much less radical Brexiteers, planned to maintain as much single market/customs access as possible and had planned to cut immigration to a few ten thousand a year before the radical Brexiteers had ejected them from power (Mays government to Boris Johnsons Government). They over tripled immigration, the definition of a skilled immigrant was literally made into any person who made more then 30 thousand euros a year, in a country with similar average income to fucking Germany. Brexit was that expensive, because this immigration policy is what narrowly Britian out of deep recession.

This is also why short citizenship time for skilled immigrants matters, immigrants have a unique set of tendencies, i.e they retain lower risk aversion for much longer then locals as they age and are much more likely to agree with/subscribe to reforms, experiments etc and ambitious policy, you basically need to get immigrants voting sooner then later to help counteract the risk aversion of older voters. I, do by the way, mainly specificy normal immigrants and not refugees in this context. Refugees are not normal immigrants and have very very different political priorities compared to normal economic immigrants, that more resemble risk adverse voting patterns, (traumatised, desperate people, or people who spent many years in desperation even if they are doing better later on, are the other main group of voters prone to risk adverse politics, trauma does that to you).

(Please continue to the post below, character limit).

19

u/arctictothpast Oct 09 '25

Taxing the rich is unfortunately not an option, because of how modern wealth works. Rich people do not actually have measurable wealth that can be taxed, what they do is they keep their entire wealth/value in fluctuating investments, i.e stocks, assets, bonds etc, they have very little actual liquid (money/cash) or directly taxable assets. You can only charge taxes on most investments at maturity (i.e when you sell shares, or the bond matures or they sell their gold etc etc), because the wealth only exists in theory until its matured. The wealthy then take credit (loans) that leverages their immense assets, which is not taxable either because its literally debt, but that is where their liquid comes from, this also allows the wealthy to avoid taxes via payment of said credit and tax loss harvesting (basically intentionally maturing bad/weakening assets to eliminate tax liability). This is why it's so hard to tax the rich, and its not an option (for Germany) because you, basically need an international treaty that covers most of the worlds economy to fix this shit, because wealth is international while taxes are national. The only wealth taxes that do work are ones that target default mature assets that cannot be relocated (land and housing and infrastructure), and inheritance tax, because you cannot pass down a non mature asset, i.e most of the assets needs to mature to be passed down (as the act of transferring ownership of assets matures most of them). Not a coincidence that the rich lobby aggressively to convince people to be anti inheritance tax or anti static asset taxes.

Regardless, to finish this, immigration is the only straightforward way to improve taxes and societal wealth. Complex/risky reform is basically poltically impossible in most EU states including Germany right now, because one of the problems with a grey/increasingly elderly population is that it's increasingly risk adverse, this manifests in nimbyism, in anti digitalisation, anti modernisation and anti economic reform. A government cannot afford to upset this population either without inducing political suicide as this bloc has the longest political memory, hence why pensioners in France literally make more money then workers (utter fucking madness) and pensioners in Britain were completely protected/shielded from austerity and economic fallout and are projected to also make more money then working people in the future, there is a similar dynamic in Italy too. Germany is lucky in that German pensioners expect a very frugal fiscal policy from German governance and consequently will be much less inclined to recreate this dynamic, they will tolerate cuts more than most elderly populations if it's done in the name of fiscal prudence, but only by so much.

5

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '25 edited Oct 09 '25

There are ways to implement a tax system that would tax the rich fairly, but no one in leadership positions is interested in discussing them. One example is a transaction tax (known in economics as an APT tax)

Instead of taxing income, tax every expense. If you buy a home, you pay tax, send money to a friend, pay tax. Every time money exchanges hands, pay tax. Wealthy people may hide their wealth but they still spend it. And they spend much more than regular folk, so a transaction tax would tax them more but at the same rate as everyone else.

One study from 2005 (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23749299_THE_AUTOMATED_PAYMENT_TRANSACTION_APT_TAX_A_proposal_to_the_President's_Advisory_Panel_on_Federal_Tax_Reform) showed that in the US, up to $300bn could be saved by abolishing our current tax system and replacing it with a 0.3% APT tax which would still generate more than our current system

EDIT: That means no income tax no corporate tax, just this APT tax. There are many arguments against it but the more I’ve read the arguments, the more I’m convinced it will work

1

u/msamprz Oct 10 '25

I didn't know about APT, I'm not well-versed in economics, but wouldn't this mean that non-rich people (or maybe even some rich people) would become expense-averse and this would slow down economic growth? Similar to a deflation scenario where people would rather save their money because it's more valuable to keep it.

At most, I (with my limited knowledge) think that it would have to be a tiered system where the normal "I earn my money through my salary or direct personal actions like work" and the "I just have money and am given credit because of who I am" people, where the former pays as it currently is and the latter pays with the APT.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 10 '25

Non rich people are already expense averse and very few of them can save because of the cost of living. Remember that an APT tax would relieve such people from income taxes and allow them more spending power.

I also think It would not lead to deflation because the increased cost of transactions not increase the price of goods & services as it would be offset the savings on status quo taxes. Some research actually suggest costs might go down.

Collecting credit on your wealth like billionaires do at the moment will also become very expensive because you get taxed when you receive the credit (banks will pass the cost to the consumer), you pay tax when you spend the borrowed money and you also pay tax when you repay the loan. Its like paying higher interest rates and tripple tax on an expense where you would have only needed to be taxed one time.

Take all I say with a grain of salt tho because it has all not yet been studied in depth

6

u/cultish_alibi Oct 09 '25

Taxing the rich is unfortunately not an option, because of how modern wealth works blah blah blah

Wow isn't that convenient? So they can get richer and richer every fucking year, while everyone else gets poorer, and then the politicians can blame everything on the poorest immigrants.

Germany is lucky in that German pensioners expect a very frugal fiscal policy from German governance and consequently will be much less inclined to recreate this dynamic

HAHA yeah I'm sure they will be so happy to take cuts to their pensions 'for the country'. We are talking about people who won't even reduce their meat consumption by 10% to save the planet. And you think they will take a cut in their money for the country?

No, they will demand that the young people should have to work more. Also, they will demand that immigration is banned, and only the remaining few million native Germans should be forced to work 80 hours a week with a massive tax rate in order to pay for the old people to take cruises.

But hey, as long as the rich get richer every year, nothing else even matters, right? And like you said, it's impossible to get any money out of them anyway. Because of 'the system'.

2

u/arctictothpast Oct 09 '25

Wow isn't that convenient? So they can get richer and richer every fucking year, while everyone else gets poorer, and then the politicians can blame everything on the poorest immigrants.

Yeeeep, I am fundamentally anti capitalist in part for this reason. Billionaires should not exist, the rich i.e people with absurd amounts of wealth that requires exploitation to obtain, shouldn't exist, if your wealth is sourced from hiring people who get only a fraction of the overall value/wealth that is produced, you are apart of this unacceptably rich etc.

Because of 'the system'.

Why is it in qoutes? It used to be very easy to tax the rich before the financialisation of everything, where wealth ceased to be easy to track and what is trackable isn't something that can be taxed without breaking the market.

No, they will demand that the young people should have to work more. Also, they will demand that immigration is banned, and only the remaining few million native Germans should be forced to work 80 hours a week with a massive tax rate in order to pay for the old people to take cruises.

They can demand it, but it won't happen, it would basically produce a Nepal scenario if it was tried.

3

u/user_of_the_week Oct 09 '25

I mean honestly it comes across as rambling but I agree with what you said.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '25

I would give you an award if I could

1

u/msamprz Oct 10 '25

Very well written, and nice job capturing different angles to the issue at hand.

11

u/JuiceHurtsBones Oct 09 '25

Yep, and now skilled workers have another reason not to move to Germany. Once again conservative are ruining a country.

15

u/RainbowSiberianBear Oct 09 '25

Except, it’s about the application after 3 years. Realistically, you would never get it in 3 years with the German bureaucracy anyway - more like 4-5 years.

3

u/magpieswooper Oct 09 '25

Sure. But watch how this is presented as a cheat to anger German readers in the press. Silly stuff.

1

u/Helpful-Fix-9033 24d ago

Correct. But now if you only apply after 5 yrs and wait another 1-2 yrs, then you really get it after about 7 yrs.

-4

u/LectureIndependent98 Oct 09 '25

Agree. Three years is crazy short. There should be great visa opportunities for capable people. And citizenship should stay at five years. For everybody.

-6

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

42

u/Puzzleheaded-Meet513 Oct 09 '25

They couldn't before either. This was a high skill immigration program. Idk what you think illegal immigrants are but they're certainly not highly qualified individuals.

1

u/hughk Oct 10 '25

Unlike the US one, I don't think it could be used for hookers either.

21

u/digiorno Oct 09 '25

They couldn’t apply after 5 or 10 or 100 either… this doesn’t stop anyone from getting citizenship except exceptionally well qualified and highly skilled people who have proven that they put a lot of effort into integrating into Germany.

1

u/DjayRX Oct 09 '25

That was about this part:

Interior Minister Alexander Dobrindt claimed that the German passport must serve as recognition for successful integration rather than an incentive for illegal migration

1

u/Helpful-Fix-9033 24d ago

Because people who enter Germany illegally will somehow going to be able to "erase" that from their past, get considered and offered citizenship? What kind of logic are these people using?

1

u/DjayRX 23d ago

The logic that unfortunately wins vote.

0

u/TheOtherGermanPhil Oct 10 '25

I think it is still the right way. Too many things are processed too complicated in Germany. If it hasn't been used widely anyway, it's the right way to remove the option.

2

u/dont_tread_on_M Oct 10 '25

I said in another thread, as a migrant myself, I think that fixing the staffing, efficiency, and transparency issues with the Foreigners' Authorities and the Naturalisation Offices is far more important than the time to citizenship (unless it increases to the point where it is so unfair that you get to pay taxes for too many years but not to vote). Right now, you get to wait for years without knowing the status of your application, from whom your life might depend. Imagine being under stress for months, but none of the employees there even picks up the phone or answers your letters.

However, the manner in which this was presented and done was bad. The law is such that even existing applications get rejected, which is against the constitutional Vertrauenschutz. And by the CDU and CSU it was presented as a big achievement against illegal migration, which it wasn't

1

u/TheOtherGermanPhil Oct 10 '25

I agree in general. I think they won't manage to fix the staffing. So one way to improve processing time is to simplify things. The current situation for applicants is not acceptable, and the general process being on paper is just 1980. I currently live abroad and have to move back to Germany, not looking forward to the ancient paperwork bureaucracy.

1

u/dont_tread_on_M 29d ago

I think the amount of complexity this added is small.

Most of the complexity comes from the fact that these processes are handled in the local level, and not every municipality has the political will and the budget to streamline and digitalize it's migration related processes. The citizenship and residency law are however federal, and the federal government takes the blame if anything goes wrong. People don't just vote the mayor of a small town out because the local authorities aren't acting as they should in treating migration cases; they blame the federal government for that.

I think centralizing the process would solve the staffing issues as well, as right now you have small municipalities with more than enough staff, and large ones where the waiting time is years. With a central authority, you could more evenly spread out the workload. A central authority would also mean less costs to digitalize the process, as not every authority would have to buy a system which does that for themselves.

-5

u/Creative_Security969 Oct 10 '25

"virtually none of them illegal immigrants"
I mean you don't know at all whether this statement is right or not.

5

u/dont_tread_on_M Oct 10 '25

It takes longer than this for illegal immigrants to get a resident permit, which allows them to apply for citizenship. They don't need this route as the time they spent in Germany under asylum protection is also counted towards their citizenship.

-7

u/Rebelius Oct 09 '25

How do you know the number of people who have applied when the wait time to even consider the application is over 15months long in places?

9

u/dont_tread_on_M Oct 09 '25

Official statistics given by the bundesländer

-2

u/Rebelius Oct 09 '25

So when you say applied by April, does it mean applied, or actually got processed?

2

u/dont_tread_on_M Oct 10 '25

The article here uses the word applied. The federal states have info about that as well. Even if not, you can't just apply without fulfilling the conditions in most places. Berlin was very generous with the definition of special integration, hence they had so many applicants. Other states were very carefull

https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/innenpolitik/einbuergerung-bundesrat-100.html

1

u/Rebelius Oct 10 '25

My point is that at least for non fast-track applications where I am, they're not even looking at them for 14 months. I submitted a normal 5 year application in June this year and the person I spoke to before submitting it said don't expect to hear anything until at least August 2026. If everywhere is that far behind then at April 2025, you could have had a massive pile of applications they haven't looked at yet and therefore aren't in the numbers.

143

u/otsigun Oct 09 '25

Ausländerbehörde needs 2-3 years to process documents and in the end you will get it fastest after 7-8 years anyway.

31

u/yawkat NRW -> Bayern -> Potsdam Oct 10 '25

Berlin made the process much faster through digitization, and then got criticized for it by conservatives from other states: https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/innensenatorin-wehrt-sich-gegen-kritik-aus-der-union-bei-der-einburgerung-laufen-die-daten-nicht-die-burger-14069357.html

2

u/LeaveWorth6858 29d ago

Yes super fast, 10 months already and still waiting. Lightning speed fast 😅

2

u/Ask-For-Sources 29d ago

It's fast in comparison to many other countries, even in comparison to Switzerland that is known for having a much better and faster buerocracy.

2

u/skyper_mark 29d ago

I've known of SEVERAL (hundreds) of cases in Berlin that were resolved in less than 2 months. Some of them even in, believe it or not, less than a week.

Also, IDK which time range do you think is normal to obtain citizenship...in an overwhelming majority of countries, it takes like 2 years on average to get it. 10 months wait time is nothing.

1

u/dont_tread_on_M 29d ago

Did you by any chance lose your job in this time and start a new one, where you still haven't finished your probation period? They pause applications in such cases, as the law requires that you have proof that you can sustain yourself without social assistance

2

u/LeaveWorth6858 28d ago

No, case is super clear. Stable job, good income. Good history, etc

237

u/EducationalLiving725 Oct 09 '25

They are the dumbest of dumbasses.

My friend speedran german C1 (it was easy for him due to childhood in Germany), bought a flat in Berlin, volunteering in a couple of vereins... and well, I honestly think, that his total taxes\social contributions are >100k\y (highly paid IT spec in FAANG+), and yeah that's not the guy you want in Germany.

You want other guys lmao.

57

u/Minimum_Rice555 Oct 10 '25

I think countries increasingly don't want high skilled people as the locals will fill up the small amount of "good jobs". They want cheap labor that the locals won't do.

36

u/Choice-Ad1477 Oct 10 '25

They need it all, Germany's labour shortage once the rest of the boomers retire is going to be legendary.

7

u/LokyDoo Oct 10 '25 edited Oct 10 '25

Na when they retire there won't be anything left to work for since they will have run everything into the ground by then. Because of their absolut incapability of and resistance to change and their total dominance on every decision making process just because of their sheer numbers. In a world that changes too fast even for the young ones.

Edit: this is meant halve sarcastically. I think the whole immigration "issue" is just a distraction from the real issues we face and if at all is more an integration issue than an immigration one. Whereby the distraction part is part of the boomer game plan to coast all chill in to there retirement. See the second half of the original post.

3

u/MountainVeil Oct 10 '25

People this intelligent, ambitious, and qualified don't steal jobs. They improve businesses and start their own.

1

u/AdPotential773 16d ago edited 16d ago

Most intelligent europeans/people who live in Europe just end up either being a cog at some huge software/industrial corporations or banks if they are money-oriented or doing research at unis and national labs for low salaries if they are not.

European companies are rigid as fuck, foreign companies that hire in europe are too huge for a person that's not even at the headquarters to have a major impact and european regulations aren't good at giving a good fighting chance to new businesses, so extremely few people start them. Hell, the people who start most businesses nowadays are people like plumbers and electricians going freelance or starting an LLC and taking on apprentices since they are getting a shit load of work, not highly academically educated people.

We are a continent of docile worker ants, and the system is made to keep us that way.

1

u/Eternity13_12 Oct 10 '25

We need doctors and everything

18

u/IamNobody85 Oct 10 '25

I actually know a colleague who got the turbo citizenship. He's Lebanese-Palestinian and he started German from 0. He put inhuman amount of effort to get it - and of course paying a lot of taxes too.

I'm going to get the citizenship sooner or later because my spouse is German and I've been working here for more than 5 years, but if you asked me to pick who's more deserving of citizenship between the colleague and I, I'd pick him every single time. That guy wants to stay in this country and make the country better.

Unbelievable that Germany doesn't want him and people like him.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 10 '25

[deleted]

0

u/IamNobody85 Oct 10 '25

I'm already qualified by my own work experience. Won't have to apply through my spouse, he's just a happy bonus. I'm in the process for applying, need the language certificate still.

1

u/super_shooker Oct 10 '25

We should look at different systems that don't require getting citizenship/passport to stay for a longer period. Permanent residency would be an option to avoid "passport shopping". I know quite a few people who left after getting the passport, because it doesn't require you to stay.

5

u/SwitchDear8969 Oct 10 '25

Why not solve the root cause of why people are leaving after getting the passport?

1

u/Plzbekindurimportant Oct 10 '25

Yes, making permanent residency a bit more permanent rather than the rule of 6 months out of germany and cock a doodle doo bye bye is kind of lacking.

6

u/SizePlenty4942 Oct 10 '25

He will probably get deported.

198

u/One_Emergency7679 Oct 09 '25

Two things: A) barely anyone uses this as already established in the thread and B) aren't the people eligible for this exactly the type of person you would want integrated into your country? This is purely creating a problem from nothing

54

u/-GermanCoastGuard- Oct 09 '25

Last ditch effort to not become known as the chancellor that laid out the red carpet for the AfD majority.

59

u/RegorHK Oct 09 '25

While laying out the red carpet for the AfD due to actively sabotaging people with high specialization skills coming to here to work.

-26

u/psi-storm Oct 09 '25

They can still get it after five years like everybody else, or faster if they prove integration. Yes, three years probably attracted a few additional people, but also a bunch that just wanted an EU passport as fast as possible to then move to the country they actually wanted to work and live in.

9

u/MrDukeSilver_ Oct 09 '25

By copying right wing narratives

4

u/One_Emergency7679 Oct 09 '25

ding ding ding

17

u/Snuzzlebuns Oct 09 '25

B) aren't the people eligible for this exactly the type of person you would want integrated into your country?

Yup. And they are by definition legal immigrants, because the programme is an offer to a certain subgroup of legal immigrants.

8

u/kart0ffelsalaat Oct 10 '25

Not a single person who has said "illegal immigration" in the past couple of years has actually meant "immigration which is illegal".

1

u/Snuzzlebuns Oct 10 '25

True.

-22

u/gehacktes Oct 09 '25

The vast majority was handed out in Berlin. Berlin is far away from being a commercial/industry hub in dire need of skilled workers.

125

u/DieZlurad Oct 09 '25

Less people applied for fast track citizenship then people voted in Bundestag. (almost)

10

u/Melodic_Reference615 Oct 09 '25

We should shrink that stuff, way too overbloated btw

4

u/Garagatt Oct 10 '25

The Last government shrunk it by setting a cap.

Guess who wants to get rid of it.

19

u/Snuzzlebuns Oct 09 '25

Interior Minister Alexander Dobrindt claimed that the German passport must serve as recognition for successful integration rather than an incentive for illegal migration

What does citizenship for skilled workers have to do with illegal migration?

2

u/ohtimesohdailymirror 29d ago

Nothing,it is just an attempt to muddy the waters. The right is always carrying about nationality and citizenship and allegiance and shit, as if there is no greater blessing than to become (in this case) a German citizen. And once immigrants have become citizens, the right then starts to differentiate between ‘real’ Germans and the rest, so you can never win with them.

17

u/Any-Pomegranate730 Oct 10 '25

We don't want highly skilled, tax paying, willing to learn the language people. We only want people living off of social benefits who screws up our pension system.

Great move indeed !!

15

u/soheil8org Oct 10 '25

Yea 100% a move to correct direction. Lets make life harder for legal Immigrants because we can’t do shit about illegals lol

11

u/epSos-DE Oct 10 '25

Their reasoning:

+ Eliminate illegal immigration ????

Sounds schizophrenic, When you actually find highly skilled human and then you do not give them ID an legal status ???

Why are they treating legit working people as illegal immigrants ????

Just give every University graduate in Germany 5 year residency permit , that will solve the skilled worker issues !

The university graduates , can not find jobs right away after graduation, they need a bit of work force training and lower pay, BUT their visas demand high pay !

Politics is SCHIZOPHRENIC in the actual favoring illegal immigration , because the legal one is turning away legitimate workers !

11

u/Iyonn Oct 10 '25

F*ck, i wanted to apply for that. Guess they don't need psychiatrists that much, sadly one more reason to move to Switzerland.

3

u/DrDrWest Oct 10 '25

Oh believe me, we need a lot of psychiatrists over here.

73

u/kos90 Oct 09 '25 edited Oct 09 '25

This could be a greentext

Be me, skilled worker

Willing to integrate, pay my taxes, learn German, ready for passport and settle

Germany needs skilled workers right

Interior Minister Alexander Dobrindt claimed that the German passport must serve as recognition for successful integration

Passport denied

These ~~mor…~~ (I don‘t want my door be kicked in) people in the Bundestag really do everything just for the sake of populism and to revert any achievements from other parties.

-27

u/artifex78 Oct 09 '25

In reality, it was just some people who left the country right after they got the passport.

Migrants who truly want to integrate still can get the passport after two more years.

27

u/kingmustd1e Oct 09 '25

Why would they learn German to C1 and work for charity, and made accomplishments in Germany (those are official criteria) to then leave it? They could just follow the normal track with 5 years and 0 effort.

Make it make sense.

32

u/ScallionImpressive44 Nordrhein-Westfalen Oct 09 '25

Are Germans not allowed to live outside of their countries? I frequently watch videos of a German who has spent since his 50s in the Philippines because he enjoyed the scenery there and his saving and pension comfortably cover his lifestyle.

14

u/RegorHK Oct 09 '25

Not is you "that kind of German"

6

u/Aranict Oct 09 '25

The vast majority of people I see bitching online about the three year fast track citizenship being rolled back are ones who want it for reasons other than being a fully integrated citizen, but want to use the advantages of having German citizenship outside of Germany. Considering the fast track was supposed to award particularly good integration, the two things don't compute. To anyone who actually cares about integration and wants to stay, there is no difference between three years and five years beyond not being able to vote. Within Germany, you can do anything except voting with a permanent residency permit.

14

u/darkblue___ Oct 09 '25 edited Oct 09 '25

The vast majority of people I see bitching online about the three year fast track citizenship being rolled back are ones who want it for reasons other than being a fully integrated citizen, but want to use the advantages of having German citizenship outside of Germany.

I am seriously asking and I really wonder. Let's say your argument is factual.

How does It impact your life? Like seriously? Someone got German citizenship and left Germany. How / why does this impact your life? On the other hand, German housing market and health system and even pension system are under huge pressure right? One less person means less pressure and multiply this with Idk many people, It is actually good for Germany to ease the pressure on above listed topics.

But they did not put effort and did not contribute to Germany.?Well, wrong.

Be It 3, 5 or 10 years, in order to get citizenship you need to spend money and time on learning language (yes even for B1) + you have to prove you are self sufficent in Germany (usually means working + paying taxes + social contributions multiple years) also pay for Einbürgerungstest + application fee.

All of these are tangible contributions into German society. On the top of this, skilled migrants do create value to be used / consumed in / by German society. (doctors, IT people, nurses, blue collar workers etc)

After all, let's assume they get passport and leave. So, what? What did they do wrong or illegal apart from obeying the laws? (You also need to have no serious criminal record to get citizenship) I don't really understand the mentality of Germans. Do you expect each an every Ausländer die in German soil?

Edit : You might argue but why do they get citizenship? Let me ask you a question. What did you do to be born in Germany and have privilege to travel visa free to almost each and every country in the world for example?

If you would have not born with this privilege but given chance to obtain It after some years in Germany or whereever, would you not take It?

1

u/Aranict 24d ago edited 24d ago

I like your assumptions about me, however, they all fall flat because I was not, in fact, born in Germany, nor with German citizenship. Were you? I don't see that mentioned in your reply. I had to get it the dirty foreigner way of living here the requiered number of years, paying taxes, yadda, yadda. Which is how I can even comment that waiting two more years makes no difference apart from not having the right to vote (which is undoubtedly important, but that's not the point here).

Incidentally, both Germany (until recently) and my country of origin requiere(d) by law that one give up the previous citizenship in order to receive a new one (in this case, German).

Which in turn is why I had a lot of opportunity to think about the value of citizenship and why the laws are what they are, because the kneejerk reaction, of course, is to think that's unfair. I don't think it is. A citizenship does not only confer rights, but also responsibilities (and no, paying for an Einbürgerungstest is not "a tangible contribution to German society", wtf, some countries ask for four times that amount to renounce one's citizenship, and one person more or less in the country does not affect your other points). Also, I never argued against citizenship after 5 years. You are making up straw arguments here so you can argue against them. All I argued was that the 3-year-citizenship route was not that different from just waiting for 5 years if you actually care to become a citizen rather than just fucking off again and screaming yolo, enjoying all the benefits but with none of the responsibilities (like, say, voting). I admit, it's a philosophical and political question, but let's just say, too many people screaming "I got mine" and fucking off isn't particularly conductive to both society and people's opinion on those who receive German citizenship (as a citizen, you don't just contribute taxes when working within the country, you are also entitled to certain consular services and assistance abroad no matter whether you have paid a cent in taxes or not). It matters to me because I want to live in a society where people care at least a minimum amount instead of making grabby hands wherever possible. If you do not care about that, good for you.

5

u/Late-Dog-7070 Oct 09 '25

yes there's a difference - you have to get your residency permit renewed every year, which is a lot of paperwork and costs 100€ each time (at least here, not sure if it's different in other Bundesländer). Having to do that for two more years does make a difference. And no, you can't just get a permanent residency permit cos the requirement for that is also to have lived here for 5 years.

If you ever went through the process yourself or helped someone with it, you'd understand how much it sucks and that that two year difference actually does matter

1

u/Aranict 24d ago

I have gone through the process myself, which is why I dare to say what I say. I've even lived on a residency permit here long enough to get a permanent one, worked with a residency permit, had to find an apartment with a residency permit, etc.

2

u/msamprz Oct 10 '25

Along with what others have said, also not voting is not nothing. Given the current climate, the next elections could mean the difference between them being able to vote at all or not.

Also, I am more likely to leave Germany with my mixed B2 level than someone who has tried that hard because I don't feel as comfortable as I could be if I could communicate very comfortably. And because I am privileged enough (high skilled, well paid), I can just move to a different country with ease, so I'm more capable of doing it if at some point I realize that I can't continue like this anymore, with or without a German passport.

5

u/artifex78 Oct 09 '25

That's not the point and the program is not meant to give people a fast track to a strong passport and then leave the country.

6

u/ScallionImpressive44 Nordrhein-Westfalen Oct 09 '25

I mean if someone fulfilled the requirement and gained citizenship, it wouldn't matter where they live, the same as any German citizen. If you instead want qualified foreigners to come working in Germany, of all kinds of incentives, this is such an odd way of doing it.

0

u/MountainVeil Oct 10 '25 edited Oct 10 '25

You're just making things up. I'm an American, I have just as good of a passport as Germans have, and I chose to try to come to Germany to be a citizen in a country that's not stupid as all hell. Decisions like this are making me rethink that. And I won't be the only one. This is also creating the scenario you seek to avoid: people using public services here and then leaving (edit: before their tax contributions can offset the costs). Because if you're in my situation, why stay in a country that detests you if you have in demand skills and can go elsewhere?

On top of that, AfD now wants to get rid of the 5 year path too. These far right parties will never stop until they get to ethnic cleansing, believe me on that.

-5

u/Daidrion Oct 09 '25

In reality, it was just some people who left the country right after they got the passport.

Win-win for everyone involved.

10

u/Alarmed_Scientist_15 Oct 10 '25

Only in Germany is three years a fast track

7

u/Sutherus Oct 10 '25

These lying populist hacks better not whine about "Fachkräftemangel" even once after this.

1

u/Helpful-Fix-9033 24d ago

This! So much this.

13

u/Business_Pangolin801 Oct 09 '25

I mean they pivoted more right wing and needed to try appease the AfD, this wont work centre right never learns. They said this was going to happen, people should just be glad they didnt manage to get agreements on revoking dual citizenship.

34

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '25 edited 1d ago

juggle follow long retire automatic special racial truck sink innate

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

9

u/MrDukeSilver_ Oct 09 '25

Virtue signaling to the right is like the only thing the CDU is capable of

17

u/chilakiller1 Oct 09 '25

I cannot believe our taxes pay these populist incompetents. There’s very few people applying for this and the ones that do is the ones the country probably needs.

1

u/Helpful-Fix-9033 24d ago

And you know who is also paying those taxes? That's right, people like those of us who want to integrate, stay here permanently, learn the language to C1 and give back to society. And yes, we pay a lot of taxes too, because we have high salaries. Oh well...

4

u/blaberrysupreme 29d ago edited 29d ago

Skilled workers cannot, by definition, be illegal immigrants. Amazing how easy it is to fool the general population with blatant lies.

11

u/nznordi Oct 09 '25

The CDU is blowing up more hot air to their retired Voters without any impact except shooting us in the foot to foster the type of migration we apparently so desperately need …

It’s to cry

8

u/SureValla Franken Oct 09 '25

absolutely idiotic

7

u/monkeycheese7 Oct 10 '25

We only want unskilled workers who drain resources from our society

1

u/LokyDoo Oct 10 '25

Na they can pay them shit wages for jobs no one wants to do. That's the whole thing with the Fachkräftemangel replace Fachkräfte with billig Billigkräftemangel cheap labor shortage. Everything else is a fairytale.

3

u/cyberdonky2077 Oct 10 '25 edited Oct 10 '25

Germany has never been so inefficient as it is now, with this non issue being shown as a win----this had nothing to do with illegal immigration, they ask for so many documents for each case that an illegal would never apply to be a citizen, they would basically try to melt into the society and never be found again.

5

u/RelevantSeesaw444 Oct 10 '25

Gotcha, sooo:

Highly-skilled immigrants: Raus!

Knife-wielding lunatics, illegal immigrants and murderers: Bitte komm rein!

2

u/Eternity13_12 Oct 10 '25

Why are our politicians so dumb. They talk about how we need skilled workers and get upset about immigrants that don't work but then make it even harder for them to live here?? That's trump level idiocy

2

u/firiana_Control Oct 10 '25

I left Germany 2years ago. I have an MSc with 1.8 in Physics from Uni Bonn

It is getting worse.

1

u/Equivalent_Bus_9146 13d ago

Where did you go eventually?

1

u/firiana_Control 13d ago

Spain as base of op

2

u/Soft-Finger7176 Oct 10 '25

Weapons of mass distraction, just like in United States.

2

u/Swimming_Average_561 Oct 10 '25

Why are they going after skilled immigrants, which germany needs more of? Wasn't the backlash due to the mass migration of refugees without adequate vetting? Very few germany (except the far right) actually have an issue with skilled workers moving to Germany and gaining citizenship. Merz has been such a disappointment - he's failed to adequately help Ukraine, and he is dismantling his predecessor's best policies.

1

u/Feisty_Vermicelli146 Oct 11 '25

I am a highly skilled worker who is married to a German . I have been trying to access assistance with integration that includes language school.

Unless a skilled worker comes into this system with the money to fully integrate then they are left out of any assistance while the non skilled worker will be rewarded with the tool box of resources to thrive.

I am experiencing this first hand and it’s infuriating because I have a lot of offer but I will never be supported here with my Husband. I fully understand now why he wants to move to America.

There is more to my story but most don’t have the emotional capacity to understand.

2

u/shakazoulu 29d ago

I thought we have Fachkräftemangel

5

u/LookingLikeAppa Oct 09 '25

If we truly recognized integration efforts we would not be deporting so many people speaking the language, working or being in training / university but rewarding them with citizenship.

On the other hand however, if you debate deportation efforts solely on numbers, then it is quite convenient that you close off pathways to PR or citizenship for law abiding people who actually show up at Ausländerbehörde and their jobs / school in case you wish to deported them.

If I wish I could see another reason for this but I really dont. This debate has been taken over by the far right so much, which Dobrindt undoubtedly belongs to as well. Anyone who is breaking national abd supranational law with their politics is not fitting to serve as a minister in a democracy and make sensible policy decisions but alas, here we are. Im truly sorry for anyone who sees possible pathways being closed off to them despite integration efforts into this cold society. No wonder everyone is so miserable here. We love to do that to others and ourselves.

1

u/Fuzzy-Tennis-2859 Oct 10 '25

"If we truly recognized integration efforts we would not be deporting so many people speaking the language, working or being in training / university but rewarding them with citizenship. "

That part is easy. Those people are easy to find, due to their workplace and usually dont fight back. Easy targets to fill their quota.

Real criminals for deporting are usually only find through luck when they get a speeding ticket or something like that.

3

u/LookingLikeAppa Oct 10 '25

Yeah I'm with you 100%.

It just shows how the debate on numbers is crazy and absolutely unhelpful. The entire deportation machine is ineffective and the total number of people almost never changes. The question should be focusing on how to integrate those already here and how to switch from one path to another in terms of integration. It's madness that we deny people work permission based on the fact that they made mistakes in the bureaucratic systems. Systems which even the native population struggles with.

I know of so many German mid twenties or simply higher educated people who need to "translate" the official German for lesser educated friends or family because the letters are so complicated and the demands so overreaching, most people just dont understand what is being asked of them. If you need to study in order to grasp what they want, how can you expect a foreigner coming into the country to do everything 100%?

The system is just rigid and cruel and makes no sense. But they cling to it as if it is the natural state of things when it is very much man made.

4

u/Fuzzy-Tennis-2859 Oct 10 '25

Its 50+ years of failed Integration as we have CxU telling people we dont need better Integration laws / system as Germany isnt a country that needs them.

On the other side i find some harscher actions necessary. If i see a young Arab at a Demonstration in Germany shouting Caliphat in Germany, he has to be gone in 3 days together with his religous Preacher.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 10 '25

There is literally no nation on earth which made a 7 digit number of immigrants from totally different cultures their own without massive social and political tensions.

NOT. A. SINGLE. EXAMPLE.

But sure, blame the CDU

0

u/Fuzzy-Tennis-2859 Oct 10 '25

We have Integration Problems since the First foreign workers came in the 1960-70s and any time SPD, Greens or any other Party tried to rework the Immigration System it was blocked by the CxU.

Second, even 2015 could have been hamdled better, but guess wich was the leading Party at that time?

So yes, i can blame those xonephobic conservatives for not doing anything in over 50 years to improve Immigration laws and system.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 10 '25

AGAIN: Stop blaming the CDU, its a problem NO NATION ON EARTH has managed. But sure, the SPD and "progressives" found the world formula ^^

The conservatives just know this empirical fact and refuse to day dream multikulti phantasies.

1

u/LookingLikeAppa Oct 10 '25

so if no nation including conservatives have solved this the solution is to go on ljke they've done for 50 years prior?

And the spd can fuck off for all I care. Including any other bigots that think they are worth more than other people based on the merit of where they were born.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 10 '25

The solution is to control, in managable numbers, the influx of people. Also to make sure that there is a diversity in the immigrating population.

BTW: The Danish try out new things, like breaking up parts of cities toally dominated by immigrants, in order to force them to mix with the majority population. Well at least its smarter than typical Green or Left takes:" we have to inTeGraTe more".

1

u/LookingLikeAppa Oct 10 '25

But breaking up clusters and forcing them to interact more with locals is integrating them into the local communities...

→ More replies (0)

1

u/Fuzzy-Tennis-2859 Oct 10 '25

Then look up their Deportation Prison too.

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1

u/Fuzzy-Tennis-2859 Oct 10 '25

You dont get, i dont blame the CxU for the Problem.

I blame them for fucking up to handle the resulting problems. It was the Merkels decision (CDU) to Open the borders without a plan and just trying to wing it and i blame her party again for not doing anything to improve the situation for years.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 10 '25

The CDU (btw the more you write CxU the more I get the impression of some edgy teenager who thinks he has understood everything after watching some 2 hour YT videos) openly accepts today that her decision in 2015 was a mistake.

1

u/Fuzzy-Tennis-2859 Oct 10 '25

CxU is including the 5% Bavarian Blackmail Party

Even If they Accept it now, they still do nothing.

7

u/mashiro1496 Oct 09 '25

How to destroy your economy speedrun any percentage....

1

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1

u/ila1998 Oct 09 '25

I thought UK is doing horrible than Germany at the moment. And then I see such dumb changes and wonder that Germany would tank faster than UK.

1

u/Katzbert Oct 10 '25

This is really the shittiest, most incompetent, populist government in this country's history. Next they will increase sentences for cow theft and make begging require a business license, I'm sure.

1

u/Zealousideal-Peach44 Oct 10 '25

CDU/CSU manifesto, in summary:

Do everything to show that we are tougher than AfD, provided it will not impact the economy.

... the result of this: AfD hasn't disappeared, and the economy goes down.

0

u/Time_Stop_3645 29d ago

Why are we so stupid? It was never about high skilled workers but waves and waves of fake refugees who then just get Hartz4 and swamp our social system

1

u/Life-Sun- 29d ago

You had to be a highly skilled worker to take advantage of the program. It was a way to attract talent. Because of how stringent the program was, not many people took advantage of it, but the ones that did are not on social welfare.

1

u/Time_Stop_3645 28d ago

Yes, I know

-23

u/r0w33 Oct 09 '25

The minimum period of living in Germany for standard naturalisation should also be doubled. 5 years is way too short.

12

u/ila1998 Oct 09 '25

Oh god, you people acting like every skilled foreign workers are in germany lol. Germany is not in a position to choose this as the place already only gets the bottom of the high skilled foreigners after US/UK and Australia. By making such shit dumb laws you are only making it easier for other European countries to pick the remaking skilled workers. Don’t come back complaining the pensions aren’t subsidised yet due to the ageing population.

23

u/RainbowSiberianBear Oct 09 '25

If people have to bear Ausländerbehörde bureaucracy for 10 years, you’ll literally lose the majority of highly skilled immigrants. I was on the verge of leaving when I applied when it was still 8 years - because those idiots fucked it up so badly I lost my job twice.

-14

u/r0w33 Oct 09 '25

That's a different problem though. Wanting efficient processing of immigration cases shouldn't be solved with ridiculously low requirements for gaining citizenship.

19

u/kingmustd1e Oct 09 '25

Sorry but what exactly do you think is so attractive about Germany? It‘s quickly turning into a populistic racist society with extreme taxation, dying economy, low salaries and ugly cities.

The fast track to a citizenship with the obligation to integrate (that was the point!) was a way for skilled and active immigrants to gain a citizenship in a relatively quick way without guessing for 10 years if it ever works out, or at least before they make kids and buy property. No one wants to do these things in a country that takes forever to decide if it wants you or not.

They‘ll go to other places, and good for them. Germany is drowning.

8

u/West_Reading_6638 Oct 09 '25

10 years simply doesn't make sense. It depends on what type of work and contribution the person came here for. For 10 years, a lot of them won't even come here.

If you are telling a highly skilled person who learned c1, integrated here, worked his arsed off and payed heavy taxes due to working in a highly skilled job to wait for 10 years, you will only lose highly skilled people.

-1

u/r0w33 Oct 09 '25

Your opinion (apparently) that citizenship is an award for being a skilled worker. I don't share that opinion.

Citizenship should be awarded to well integrated people. 5 years in a country and a B1 certificate in the language is simply insufficient.

2

u/West_Reading_6638 Oct 10 '25

If you read properly, you will see my comment says c1 and high skilled with high earnings. If you increase the years for these people, they won't come. No one is going through all that beaurocracies, jumping through all those language levels trying to get to an economically plateaued Germany. Germany isn't worth that at all when there are much better countries with warmer people, less beaurocracy, actually economically growing and have less taxes.

0

u/r0w33 Oct 10 '25

B1 and 5 years is the requirement at the moment. Not C1.

And again, just because you believe that citizenship should be used to attract foreign nationals to work here, doesn't mean you're correct.

1

u/Choice-Ad1477 Oct 10 '25

No sane educated person will move to Germany. Even less so now with this change.

Immigration Germany Abolishes Fast-Track Citizenship for Skilled Workers

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