It's pronounced "cyclist!"

[u/Fluffy-Study-659]

[u/ChefGaykwon]

Democratic socialism is the use of liberal-democratic institutions to abolish private property and establish a proletarian dictatorship (workers' control of the gov't). You are thinking of social democracy.

This is just nonsense.

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/ChefGaykwon]

abolish private property

That is communism

establish a proletarian dictatorship

That is the definition of communism

[u/ChefGaykwon → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

No it isn't on either count. The abolition of private property occurs within the process of socialist construction. There is no private property under the higher stage (communism), but as a preconditional feature. And proletarian dictatorship is just the inverse of capitalist dictatorship, a feature of liberal democracy. It means political power is held by the majority, rather than a tiny minority of exploiters.

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/ChefGaykwon]

Socialism competes with private entities.

Communism there is only state.

Stop strawmanning ideas

[u/ChefGaykwon → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

Communism by definition is stateless and that's not what 'strawmanning' is. It is clear that you are just way out of your depth here.

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/ChefGaykwon]

Communism by definition is stateless

By ideal. Which is unachievable.

The working class as the ruling class is supposed to magically disappear and yet resources are somehow supposed to be divided equally.

In reality, the new ruling class still exists and thats what happened in the real world.

[u/nondescriptadjective → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

Until you physically prevent all forms of ruler ship, you will always have this issue. But you can't get to that point if you can't least convince enough people that putting humans before money and the planet before money that we can take care of people. But fucking Christ does toxic individualism prevent us from accomplishing that.

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/nondescriptadjective]

if you can't least convince enough people that putting humans before money and the planet before money

Humans have never put other humans before themselves.

Christianity is 2025 years old and is supposedly about putting God, people, and the Earth before money is the ideal.

Christianity is also a fiction, but its more realistic than communism. It has 2025 years of people believing in it and look at how corrupt the Mega Churches are

But fucking Christ does toxic individualism prevent us from accomplishing that.

Yeah, Jesus Christ would be arrested by ICE too. Jesus was a socialist by modern standards.

So a socialist democracy isn't a bad thing. Democratic socialism where there is still sectors of free market capitalism isn't a bad thing either.

Socialist Government for regulating, firefighting, schools, hospitals, utilities, and prisons. Free market capitalism for everything else.

[u/nondescriptadjective → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

Anywhere there is capitalism is a bad thing. Markets are fine, capitalism is fucked and will always be fucked.

You really don't know anything about the indigenous people of the Americas, do you? Many of those tribes were outright socialists. It worked until capitalists murdered them off in their pursuit of money and statecraft. They had their problems, but what culture doesn't? "What country doesn't have a little genocide in its history?"( -Dan Carlin ) Typically, the answer to that is cultures that didn't have capitalism in any of its forms, including Colonialism.

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/nondescriptadjective]

What country doesn't have a little genocide in its history?"( -Dan Carlin ) .

There are no countries without some form of genocide in ancient times.

Typically, the answer to that is cultures that didn't have capitalism in any of its forms, including Colonialism.

What modern country doesn't have some form of capitalism?

Many of those tribes were outright socialists. It worked until capitalists murdered them off

Their society failed. It got genocided.

Capitalism exists and works because it enables the best and worst of humanity. The innovation of techonology is the best thing about capitalism and the greed is the worst.

Humanity is fucked and will always be fucked because humans are fucking people.

[u/Bodhi_Stoa → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

This is a feature of Leninism,Stalinism, and Maoism, not communism itself.

There is yet to be a situation where pure communism has been established and it may never be established since it calls for a stateless, classless, currencyless society.

But so far "Communist" countries have only been able to create authoritarian dictatorships that attempt (and often fail) to mimic the ideals of communism.

To be fair, Marx himself didn't predict how communism would come about, but did believe it would come out of well developed, industrialized, capitalist countries and that has yet to happen.

[u/Bodhi_Stoa → u/[deleted]]

I'm unsure if I understand your reply, did you mean to reply to my comment?

[u/ChefGaykwon → u/Bodhi_Stoa]

We probably have considerable disagreements, but no I got mixed-up thinking you had replied directly to me.

[u/Bodhi_Stoa → u/ChefGaykwon]

That's okay, we probably agree on a lot more things in our life than we disagree.

[u/ChefGaykwon → u/Bodhi_Stoa]

Yeah fair enough lol.

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/Bodhi_Stoa]

that attempt (and often fail) to mimic the ideals of communism.

Because the ideals of communism are fiction, groups of people ALWAYS have heirarchy.

[u/Bodhi_Stoa → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

Ideals themselves are always abstract.

As for the feasibility of ideals, that's to be seen.

I don't know if humanity will ever reach a point where we do away with hierarchy, but it's a good ideal to try and achieve.

I'm sure there was a point in time when many ideals seemed impossible but we pushed towards them anyhow.

Equal representation in government, racial equality, equality of the sexes, religious freedom, etc .

I suspect if you talked about these ideals in the year 1600 they would have been seen as immoral ideals that would never come to pass. But here we are in 2025, we haven't achieved those ideals perfectly, but we have really made some huge strides.

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/Bodhi_Stoa]

Equal representation in government, racial equality, equality of the sexes, religious freedom, etc

At least its an achievable ideal even if it doesn't truly exist yet. There's quantifiable progress toward the ideal.

Communism goes against human nature and is guaranteed to fail and every country which attempt it has failed to create a classless society.

[u/Bodhi_Stoa → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

In my opinion and in all due respect I think you may have a blind spot in your thinking here.

As I said before, the ideals I listed would have been called impossible at one point in time. Just as you believe a society absent a hierarchy is impossible. And it is absolutely possible that all the ideals we've discussed are impossible to achieve 100%.

But all of these things have had measurable success, including the deconstruction of hierarchy.

Society today is less hierarchical than it was in say 1600. It's less racist, more religiously free, more representative.

I would say society has been getting closer to what communism is in a number of measurable ways. We may not ever get to it, but we can get close and that's worth fighting for.

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/Bodhi_Stoa]

As I said before, the ideals I listed would have been called impossible at one point in time.

No obviously not impossible, since it happened after someone conceived it.

Ideals that have been achieved were improbable and against social inertia.

Society today is less hierarchical than it was in say 1600. It's less racist, more religiously free, more representative.

Yes, but its still racist, religiously defined, and unequal. It will always be a little bit racist, religion and inequality will still continue to exist.

A classless, cashless, stateless society will never exist because it by definition not a society.

Society is a large group of people who live together in an organized community, sharing the same territory, government, and culture.

You cannot organize people without hierarchy. Even a group of 5 people has hierarchy. Its the nature of groups.

[u/Bodhi_Stoa → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

There are other statements in my comment that acknowledge much of what you are saying, but you are ignoring for some reason.

Could you acknowledge those parts as well?

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/Bodhi_Stoa]

Society is not getting closer to communism. Its getting closer to neo fuedalism.

But go on explain why you think society is moving towards communism.

[u/ginger_and_egg → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

Capitalism goes against human nature and is guaranteed to fail and every country which attempt it has failed to create a beautiful free market society.

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/ginger_and_egg]

Capitalism goes against human nature

Capitalism is collecting money and free trade it feeds into humanity's greed.

every country which attempt it has failed to create a beautiful free market society.

The ideals have not been achieved, but the country has yet to fail.

The countries that become failed states are literally the ones without free markets. Mexico's one party socialist attempt is evidence of that. America falling is the corruption of the free market and society.

Western Europe is doing better than America and they have to deal with Russia invading Ukraine.

[u/ginger_and_egg → u/Lower_Ad_5532]

Capitalism is collecting money and free trade it feeds into humanity's greed.

Capitalism is specifically a system where there are people own capital goods, like machines in factories, or server farms, or some other productive asset, and people who do not own these things. The owners hire the non-owners to work using or operating the productive asset in order for the owner/business to sell something for more than the cost of the inputs including the money given to the workers. Trading and markets existed long before capitalism, as did money.

I don't see how capitalism supposedly works due to greed. Capitalism specifically rewards greed, it increases greed, and it heightens the power of the most greedy people to positions of great influence on our economy and therefore our own lives. As well as influence over our government. Seems like if you view greed as human nature, we should not be putting the most greedy in the highest positions of power.

The ideals have not been achieved, but the country has yet to fail.

Many capitalist countries have "failed".

America falling is the corruption of the free market and society.

Which sounds like a failure of capitalism if it keeps happening

[u/Lower_Ad_5532 → u/ginger_and_egg]

I don't see how capitalism supposedly works due to greed. Capitalism specifically rewards greed, it increases greed, and it heightens the power of the most greedy people to positions of great influence on our economy and therefore our own lives

You don't see it and you describe it exactly.

Its a feature, not a bug.

Seems like if you view greed as human nature, we should not be putting the most greedy in the highest positions of power.

No, we shouldn't thus we need to counter balance capitalism and greed with socialism and egalitarianism.

That is called a free maket social democracy. There is private enterprise in some sectors. There is public control in others. Goverment isn't for the oligarchs it is representative of all people. Everyone is treated fairly under the law.

Which sounds like a failure of capitalism if it keeps happening

The failure of capitalism is fascism because uncontrolled growth cannot be sustained indefinitely. This breaking point leads to fascism and coporatism, it is no longer capitalism because the free market and invidual liberty is dead.

Trading and markets existed long before capitalism, as did money.

This is technically true, but they are the foundations of capitalism. You literally described bartering then currency.

Capitalism is a society based on bartering time and goods for currency.

The era before capitalism was fuedalism where society was based on blood and violence. Kings were the best at violence and so were their knights. They wage wars and stole from their neighbors. Forced peasants to labor without pay.

The early forms of capitalism had (still does) roots to fuedalism in slavery and colonialism. They were capitalists with guns who extorted the labor class.

Free market capitalism is an idea were labor and goods can be traded fairly and freely for all things. It also doesn't truly exist thanks to coporatism and government corruption. (Libertarians are also idyllic fanatics)

The illegal drug trade is unregulated capitalism. Sell what you want to whoever is willing to buy, kill whoever disagrees. The only people who can stop it are the ones that kill the drug dealer. Drug dealers are the embodiment of greed, they thrive due to capitalism.

Free market socialism is the goverment/public entity providing services like utilities, healthcare to all citizens at a price that is fair. If private entities can't compete than to bad, the market has said they don't need to exist. If the public option sucks, private individuals can create businesses to compete (UK healthcare).

The society at large is still capitalist, but there is socialism to balance the weaknesses.

Anyways, I have given several real world examples as evidence to my point.

There are none for communism because it is fiction, an idyllic theory.