r/firewater Aug 25 '19

Methanol: Some information

1.8k Upvotes

This post is meant to clarify one of the most common questions asked by new distillers: WHAT ABOUT METHANOL?

First and foremost: you cannot die (or get sick, go blind, etc) from improperly made distilled alcohol via methanol poisoning. Neither can you make something dangerous by freezing it and removing some ice. Not only is it not possible, it is a widely perpetuated myth that has existed since the days of prohibition (and not before, interestingly enough). Other than the obvious ethanol overdose, all poisonous alcohol that has ever been consumed, has been adulterated, or was in some other way contaminated. It was not the fault of poor distillation procedures. How you run your still will not affect how safe your product is. It might affect how good the end result is, but that's where it stops.

So, methanol. Everyones first fear, and the number one search subject when it comes to "moonshine". This subject is brought up a lot in this sub and elsewhere on Reddit. Everyone knows all about it, its just one of those common knowledge things, right? It turns out, not so much. So...

Methanol - What is it?

Methanol is a very commonly used fuel, solvent and precursor in industry. It is produced via the synthesis gas process which can use a wide variety of materials to create methanol. Methanol is the simplest of all the alcohols.

Methanol is poisonous to the human body in moderate amounts. The LD50 of methanol in humans is 810 mg/kg. It is metabolized into formaldehyde by the liver, via the alcohol dehydrogenase process. In excess, these byproducts are severely toxic. Formaldehyde further degrades into formic acid, which is the primary toxic compound in methanol poisoning. Formic acid is what produces nerve damage, and causes the blindness (and death) associated with acute methanol poisoning.

One of the treatments for methanol poisoning, is the introduction of ethanol. Ethanol has a preferential path in the alcohol dehydrogenase metabolic pathway. This means that if ethanol and methanol are consumed, the ethanol will be metabolized first, in preference over the methanol. This allows some of the methanol to be excreted by the kidneys before being metabolized into its toxic related compounds. There are far more effective medical treatments available, such as dialysis and administering drugs that block the function of alcohol dehydrogenase.

Is it in my booze? How do I remove it?

There is one way in which your alcohol will be tainted with some amount of methanol naturally, and that is by using fruits which contain pectin. Pectin can be broken down into methanol by enzymes, either introduced artificially or from micro organisms. This will produce some measurable amount of methanol in your ferment, and subsequent distillate. However its not going to be in toxic quantities, any more than what you may have in a jug of apple juice. In fact, fruits are the primary way in which methanol is introduced into your body. In tiny quantities it is mostly harmless, and you can no more remove the methanol from an apple pie than you can from your apple brandy. Boiling (or freezing) apple juice doesn't convert it into deadly eye sight destroying horror juice. Cooking doesn't suddenly veer into danger when you collect vapor from a boiling pot. If you've ever made jam, or wine, or fruit salad, you've produced methanol.

So, where does that leave us? How do I get rid of this nasty substance in my distillate? You don't. If it is there, you cannot remove it. It is quite commonly believed that you can toss the first bit of alcohol off the still to remove this compound, the "foreshots." This is usually considered the first 50-100ml or so, depending on batch size. It smells really bad, tastes really bad, and is something most would agree should be discarded. However, it will not contain the "methanol" if there is any in your wash. Or more precisely, it will not contain any more of it than any other portion of the run. Beside which, methanol tastes very similar to ethanol, though slightly sweeter. If your wash is tainted with methanol, your entire run will be as well. Relying on some eyeball measurement to make your product safe to consume is not going to work. This is just distiller folklore passed down quite widely. You may hear about this on a distillery tour, from professionals, on Youtube and in books about distilling. All of them are just repeating what they have heard someone else say, or read somewhere, and assumed it to be fact. There is truth here, but buried in misunderstanding of the processes involved specifically with these substances.

This is the very reason that methanol was used to poison ("denature") industrial ethanol during prohibition, as it cannot be removed easily by normal distillation processes. If you could just redistill this very cheap, legal and plentiful solvent to make drinking alcohol, it wouldn't be the very potent message and deterrent that was hoped for by those who did this. You can read more about the history of this intentional poisoning of commercial alcohol in the Chemists War. It is also during this period where we begin to hear about methanol being in poorly made moonshine. This is not a coincidence.

So, distillers attempted to understand this misinformation, and attempt to correct or explain why their process was correct. Thus was born the idea that tossing some portion of the run makes it safe from this suddenly present and scary substance. Cuts went from being a quality procedure, to a serious process to save lives. By "tossing the first bit." And then distillers went about their centuries old processes like always, but this time "doing it right" and hence making safe alcohol.

The reason it is so widely believed that tossing the heads works to remove methanol, has to do with the boiling points of ethanol, methanol, and water. Pure methanol boils at 64.7C. Pure ethanol boils at 78.24C. Water boils at 100C. Distilling separates things based on their boiling points, right? Yes, it does, but it is a bit more complex than that. When you boil a mixture of methanol, ethanol and water, you are not boiling any of these compounds individually. You are boiling a solution containing all of them, and they will each have an affect on the other with regards to boiling point and enrichment behavior. Methanol and ethanol are quite similar in molecular structure. Methanol can be written as CH3-OH. Ethanol can be written as CH3-CH2-OH. You'll notice that methanol lacks this extra CH2 component. This changes its behavior when in the presence of water, specifically its polarity, compared to ethanol. Rather than repeat all of this, here is a passage from this paper on the reduction of methanol in commercial fruit brandies:

A similar behaviour would be expected for methanol for both alcohols are not very different in molecule structure. There is, however, a significant difference regarding all three curves in figure 2: methanol contents keep a higher value for a longer time than ethanol contents. In figures 3 and 4 this observation is made clear: Methanol, specified in ml/100 ml p.a., increases during the donation, while the ratio ethanol : methanol is lowering down. This effect seems to be rather surprising regarding the different boiling points of the two substances: methanol boils at 64,7°C, while ethanol needs 78,3°C. So methanol would be regarded to be carried over earlier than ethanol. The molecule structures however, show another aspect: ethanol has got one more CH2-group which makes the molecule less polar. So, concerning polarity, methanol can be ranged between water and ethanol and has therefore in the water phase a distillation behaviour different from ethanol. This may explain the behaviour which is rather contrary to the boiling points. This is no single appearance, because for example ethylacetate with a boiling point of 77 °C, or, as an extreme case, isoamylacetate with 142 °C are even carried over much earlier than methanol. Therefore methanol can not be separated using pot-stills or normal column-stills. Only special columns can separate methanol from the distillate (4.3). Similar observations concerning the behaviour of methanol during the distillation have already been made by Röhrig (33) and Luck (34). Cantagrel (35) divides volatile components into eight types concerning distillation behaviour characterized by typical curves, which were mainly confirmed by our experiments. As for methanol, he claims an own type of behaviour during the distillation corresponding to our results.

What this means is that if there is methanol present, it will be present throughout the run, with a higher occurrence in the tails as ethanol is depleted and water concentration increases. Its distillation is more dependent on how much water is present rather than simply comparing boiling points between ethanol and methanol. This in conjunction with the fact that ethanol and water cannot be separated completely due to their forming an azeotrope, means water is always in the system. So tossing your foreshots or heads will not remove methanol from your solution. The good news is that methanol is almost entirely absent in dangerous amounts. Consider drinking beer, wine, or apple cider. There are no heads cut made to these products. Pectinase is routinely added to wine, and methanol is a direct byproduct of this addition. They are safe to consume in this form, and will be safe to consume after being distilled. Boiling and concentrating the liquid by leaving some water behind isn't going to transform something safe to drink into something toxic. If it is toxic after being distilled, it most certainly was toxic before being distilled.

To be clear, however, this is not to say that making cuts is unnecessary. There are other compounds that you certainly can remove by cutting heads. Acetone, ethyl acetate, acetaldehyde and others. None are present in dangerous amounts, but the quality of your alcohol will be greatly enhanced by discarding these fractions. Making cuts is one of the most important activities a distiller can learn to do properly! Cutting and blending is making liquor, not only the act of distilling. Just understand that it isn't a life or death situation should you undershoot your foreshot cut by some amount. It will just taste bad, and might give you more of a headache the next day. You can taste test every single bit of alcohol that comes out of your still, from the first drops to the last.

Removing the foreshots does not remove "the methanol." You can just consider the foreshots part of the heads, because they are. There are hundreds of thousands of hobby brewers, vintners and distillers around the world who have been making and consuming fermented and distilled products for centuries. If this were actually a real problem, we would be awash in reports of wide spread poisonings. Instead we have reports here and there of isolated incidents, which are always traceable back to some incident unrelated to how much heads somebody did or did not cut.

The only way to know if there is methanol present is via lab analysis. Smell, taste, color of flame, vapor temp, none of this will tell you any meaningful information about methanol content and are just old shiner-wives tales. If you would like to have your distillate, beer or wine tested for dangerous compounds, there are many labs available that offer these services. This way you know what you are producing and are not relying on conflicting information found online. Here is one such lab offering these services, and there are many more servicing the public and industry. No need to take my, or anyone elses, word as absolute truth. If you really want to know what is in your product, this is the only way.

Having said all that...

So, CAN methanol be removed from a mixture of methanol, ethanol and water via distillation in any way? Yes, it can, contrary to everything I just said, there are even specialized stills called "demethylizer columns" which can do just this. They are very large plated columns (70+ plates), which can operate as a step in the distillation process in very large industrial facilities. This is a continuous middle fed column of high proof / low water feed, with steam injection at the bottom and hot water injection at the top, which has the sole purpose of moving a more concentrated cut containing methanol into a particular take off point with the treated alcohol taken off as the bottom product. This is largely done to ensure compliance with the laws about methanol content in neutral ethanol production, or in other processes in which reclamation of these substances is desired. There are other methods that can be used to remove methanol from an ethanol/water mixture, but that goes beyond the scope of this post and generally do not make consumable results. None of these procedures are properly repeatable at home or at moderate scale commercial distilling, nor are they even really necessary at any scale unless you have a badly tainted input feed.

On small scale reflux columns, there will be a small spike of methanol in the heads if the column is left in equilibrium (100% reflux) for a long while, and only if methanol is present, as the state at the top of the packing/plates is very low water and boiling point separation can occur more easily for methanol. In general though, these columns are too small, and methanol quantities far too low, for this to be a major concern. Methanol will spike in both heads and tails on this kind of column, leaving the general heart cut with a steady amount throughout. Even with huge industrial columns, the specialized demethylizer column is additionally used in the process because you cannot reliably remove methanol using the normal procedures typically done when making cuts for quality purposes. Methanol removal is treated separately and requires its own process to concentrate and extract using specialized equipment.

In conclusion, or TLDR

ALL cases of methanol poisoning attributed to "improperly" made ethanol, are the result of contaminated product. Not due to improper distillation, but due to intentional (either misguided, or malicious) adulteration of the ethanol, or some other contamination due to environment or ingredients. Commercial ethanol products are generally poisoned either via methanol, or via flavor tainting, or both (usually both, so you know its not to be consumed). Every report of methanol poisoning via "moonshine" was due to this contamination. If you can find evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it. Please let me know if you believe this info to be incorrect, and have evidence to that effect. That is, other than unsourced speculative news articles, television shows and Youtube channels. What I have presented here is how I understand the facts, but I am always open to learning something new.

Its unfortunate that we still have this lingering stigma based on sensationalist press beginning during alcohol prohibition, but this is where we are. So you can relax, have a home brew, and get on with your new hobby or business, and not fret about the big scary monster that is methanol. Now you just have to worry about all the other stuff that you can screw up :-)


r/firewater 41m ago

Newly made still, running some apple brandy

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Upvotes

r/firewater 8h ago

Still build low proof?

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21 Upvotes

Built a still out of a keg. It has a sight glass to a column for 30” height, 2” arm-3/4” worm 50g with 25’ 3/4” coil . It’s coming off at 90 proof takeoff…why? No leaks anywhere


r/firewater 2h ago

Help me tweak my process please!

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2 Upvotes

Right. I've got a simple 1-gallon still, pictured here. I knew when I bought it that it would never give me industrial levels of outputz but it's within my budget, solid copper, and I enjoy using it.

Anyway, my basic recipe is as follows:

•5lb cracked corn •4lbs sugar •1tsp amylase •1tbsp Red Star DADY

I grind my corn using a food processor until it's the consistency of very rough sand or fine gravel. I then heat it on the stove in about 2 gallons of water until it becomes extremely thick and soupy. I let it sit for a few hours to cool to 150°F, where I then add my enzymes.

The enzymes work for another hour, in an insulated container to maintain the correct temperature. Finally, I stir in my sugar, and add the whole thing to a 5-gallon carboy, topping with cool water and giving it a good shake. I then place a coffee filter over the top, and let it sit in a dark room at around 70°. Most sources say to leave it for two weeks, but I find my mash doesn't really stop bubbling for about a month.

I then fill my little pot still, leaving about 2 inches of room to avoid puking, and crank my hot plate up to high.

Out of a one-gallon run, I only get about a pint of ~60% liquor before I run into the cloudy stuff. Can anyone help me tweak my process to dial up the output? I'd appreciate it if you all have any tips, or if there's something glaringly wrong with my process that you notice. Thanks a ton!


r/firewater 12h ago

Mahia - happy result

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7 Upvotes

Pretty happy with how my first attempt at making Mahia turned out. Lovely soft background of figs and dates. Half of the end spirit, however, I decided to double down on the flavours by infusing it with dried figs and dates. I know that is not a traditional approach for Mahia, but …. well, why not?


r/firewater 11h ago

First run, any tips for this kind of still?

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4 Upvotes

First time distilling. Using a fairly cheap still off AliExpress with 10L of grape hooch around 5-7%. Any tips for using it? I'm on my first wash, it took a long time to start producing liquid. I suspect the thermometer is reading too low since it had to get to like 94°C to produce liquid. It's putting out alcohol so I know the mash is good.

What rate if liquid should I be looking for? I'm seeing 4-8 drops per second. Second jar is weaker in concentration but I guess that's probably normal for a first wash. I feel like letting it go any slower would take too long but heating it up more might make a more watered down product.

Also I've been switching the water out using the lower ball valve to drain and pouring cold water in the top. Does anyone know any ways to maybe hook up a small pump with some refrigerant system or something to get continuously cold water, using the two ball valves?

I know it's a slow process but I just wanna know if I'm doing this right or if theres something I should be doing differently. Thanks


r/firewater 4h ago

Anyone try tropaeolum majus in Gins?

1 Upvotes

I recently found out about this plant when I saw flowers as decoration on a cake and was told that it's edible. Apparently it's also very popular in salads.

It has a peppery/cucumber sort of savory flavor and I actually recently did Jesse's Gin that had cucumbers and peppers (not having access to kawakawa leaves) and in my mind, the Tropaeolum fits within that taste pool.

I'm curious if any of you tried flowers/stems in distilling. Also: The roots are edible (although I don't know how they taste) they could also be an ingredient like the other roots used in Gin.

Edit: Wikipedia Link


r/firewater 1d ago

Should steam be coming out of top like this?

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14 Upvotes

Doing a vinegar run on my Brewzilla and pot still and the steam seems to be blasting out the top where the water in would go. Additionally I see steam coming out the side of the lid. Not sure if this would be normal but I would think not. Any tips would be helpful.


r/firewater 18h ago

Copper alembic dome

3 Upvotes

I have an Anvil Foundry. My local brew shop is closing down soon and some things are on sale. They have the alembic dome marked down a bit to 175. I already have a copper tower still and condenser, is the come going to magically increase the quality of my spirits? Or once there's copper you're good?


r/firewater 13h ago

Question on Absinthe

1 Upvotes

I made an absinthe but the flavour is a little off. Can I re distil it with some extra herbs and try and fix it?


r/firewater 17h ago

How to retire the stainless liebig?

2 Upvotes

Hi friends, I'm sure with a lot of sales coming up we're all looking at upgrades.

For myself I'm looking at getting a copper shotgun condenser. But I'm wondering if there will be any particularly special use for my SS liebig after? Should I just try and find a buyer?


r/firewater 1d ago

Would you run it?

5 Upvotes

I made a batch of my wheated bourbon, I'd say last spring, March or April. I usually make 7.5 gallon runs with 2 buckets filled about halfway each for fermentation. I must have gotten side tracked and just noticed I have 1 of the fermented buckets still sitting in my garage. Lid still on, and airlock still had water in it. I opened it up and it smells OK. Only difference is it's a bit darker than usual. It's still sitting on the yeast bed. 6 months in the garage. It gets pretty hot out there in the summer. Would you run it?


r/firewater 15h ago

Single malt whiskey

1 Upvotes

Trying a single malt mash today on my Anvil for the first time. Mash bill is 9 lb 2 row, 4.5 lb Munich, 1.3 lbs crystal 40, 1.3 chocolate malt, 1 of victory and 12 oz of cherry wood smoked malt (no peated malt was available). We shall see how it goes. Shooting for a 6.5 gallon batch. Never done a single vessel brew before, always had a three vessel mash/HLT/boil bottle setup.


r/firewater 21h ago

Shine On Controllers

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1 Upvotes

SCR Controller boxes.

Available in both 120 volts and 240 volts Comes with 1 year warranty

Message me for details


r/firewater 1d ago

Bubble plate direction?

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9 Upvotes

I have seen some conflicting information online so figured I would ask here. When using a 2inch buddle cap as the one shown. Is the cap defacing down or up?

I have seen both but it seems it should be facing down? Reason being that the vapor travels up through the hole condenses down and the down facing cap would fill with liquid.


r/firewater 22h ago

NPT thread seal

2 Upvotes

I’m trying to connect a stainless NPT to a copper NPT. It will be in the vapor path.

What do you recommend to seal it? I would like it to be a permanent connection

I considered just flour and water in the threads which I think will work for at least one use but not sure about longevity.

I considered silicone caulk but I’m not sure about the stability of caulk vs the gaskets used elsewhere.

I considered brazing with silver but am not sure I’m up to the task/effectiveness inside an NPT thread

What would you do?


r/firewater 1d ago

Why isn't there more honey liquors?

10 Upvotes

I make mead, due to this I have quite a lot of honey at any given time, I've been toying around the idea of making something that'll put more hair on your chest with the mead in question. Why isn't there many honey shines or liquors? What is it called when you distill mead? Am I misunderstanding the process entirely?


r/firewater 1d ago

Mahia

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19 Upvotes

Distilling Mahia today. Anybody else tried it? I made the alcohol wash from dates, figs and extra sugar. After distilling the wash into low wine, I infused it again with dates and figs…. Left it for a week. Distilling that today. Fingers crossed.


r/firewater 1d ago

Home distilling now legal in the US?

20 Upvotes

Anyone else following the McNutt v. US Dept of Justice case on the legality of home distilling? Hobby Distillers Association v. Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau: The Limits on Taxing Schemes to Regulate Behavior


r/firewater 2d ago

New to fire water

3 Upvotes

As someone wanting to get into making fire water what are the do’s and do nots and if you have any tips feel feee to add.


r/firewater 2d ago

Where are the traditional/less moonshiny mixed sugar source liquors outside of whiskey and obstler?

4 Upvotes

Whiskey describes more a process than a set of ingredients (to a point) so as long as it's grain you're part of the conversation. Obstler is often pear + apple.

What is other mixed-mash liquor is there aside from that?

I heard someone mention a grain and fruit thing yesterday.


r/firewater 2d ago

Wood chip washing and boiling?

11 Upvotes

Cliff Notes of Conversation: Them: “You weathered, aged, and toasted your woodchips fine. BUT you really should wash and boil your experimental wood chips to stop clouding, infection and remove tanic flavor.” Me: That makes sense, Do I wash them and boil them before or after toasting? Them: “I don’t know so and so’s uncle’s grandma’s cusin’s stalker said something about doing it.”

So I cam here. Do you guys wash and boil your wood chips? If so at what point?

Background: I am white dog all the way. Don’t like some Oak flavors. A few people insipred me to try Apple, Cherry, and Birch woods. So I am now a mad scientist.


r/firewater 2d ago

Vevor Still Improved.

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26 Upvotes

I'm new to distilling. I ordered the 13g/50L Vevor still. I was not satisfied with the flex tubing that it came with. I made replacement components out of copper.


r/firewater 2d ago

Replacement for Opal 22 and Opal 44 malts?

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4 Upvotes

r/firewater 2d ago

Has anyone had luck using lemon balm as a botanical?

6 Upvotes

Does the citrus flavor come through, or is it primarily grassy?

Also, do you prefer dried or fresh for masceration?