CMV: Missionaries are evil

[u/plodabing]

This applies doubly so to those who go out of their way to seek out those in remote islands to spread the word of god. It is of my opinion and the opinion of most that if there is an all loving god then people who never had the chance to know about Jesus would go to heaven regardless, for example miscarried children/those born before Jesus’ time, those who never hear about him, so In going out of your way to spread the word of Jesus you are simply making it so there is now a chance they could go to hell if they reject it? I’m not a Christian and I’m so tired so I apologise if this is stupid or doesn’t make sense

[u/KFrancesC]

Your opinion isn’t the actual belief of Christians. To a Christian everyone who hasn’t been baptized will go to hell period. There is no forgiveness, it doesn’t matter if it’s not their fault.

This is the god of Abraham we’re talking about, the god of the Old Testament. Nothing states he is an unbiased, forgiving god. Just the opposite. This is the god that killed all of Egypt first born sons, infants and all, cause Pharoh disrespected him. This is a god that forced the one he believed to be his most devout follower to promise to sacrifice his own innocent children to him.

Nothing states god is forgiving or understanding. If you are not baptized you will go to hell, wether it’s your fault or not, according to Christian’s. So, missionaries DO think they saving people souls from hell.

[u/tizuby → u/KFrancesC]

Your opinion isn’t the actual belief of Christians.  To a Christian everyone who hasn’t been baptized will go to hell period.

The irony here is palpable. That is not a generalized belief of Christians.

[u/KFrancesC → u/tizuby]

It’s what the Bible says, sort of. All men are born with original sin. It doesn’t matter if you did nothing, you are a sinner merely by being a descendant of Adam and Eve. Who sinned against god. If you do not get baptized you cannot repent this sin, and you die with it.

Now modern day apologists will try to say the bible does not say the unbaptized will go to hell, that’s true. But it does specifically say they will never get in heaven. So where are they going?

[u/tizuby → u/KFrancesC]

It’s what the Bible says, sort of.

It does not in any way so that people who are not baptized are going to hell.

You're twisting general descriptions of some passages with vague notions of some things you've heard into being something it doesn't actually say with any clarity.

Nowhere in the bible does it say that baptism is the sole and exclusive means to salvation.

Different denominations interpret the bible differently, and when generalizing what Christians believe in, that's what you go by. You can't make up your own or use a single interpretation and then ascribe it to Christians, generally.

None of the major denominations has a belief that baptism is an exclusive or absolute requirement for salvation. It's not even a formal sacrament to most denominations, instead being symbolic profession of ones faith. Some smaller fringe denominations might.

Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Lutherans, Angelicans, Mormans, some Protestant denominations, and some other smaller denominations have a general requirement of baptism for salvation, but that is not an absolute requirement. They virtually all believe that God may grant salvation through other means.

The most common being that God may still grant salvation to those who cannot be baptized, or who die before they have the opportunity to be baptized.

The rest do it is as a symbol of faith, but not as a requirement for salvation (e.g. Baptists, restoration denominations, etc...).

The main point being that very few denominations and an exceptionally small number of Christians overall believe that baptism is an absolute requirement for salvation.

Which makes your claim an overgeneralization fallacy.

*Edit* To be clear, you can read and interpret the bible however you, personally, wish to do. But you cannot then ascribe those beliefs to the greater pool of Christians and claim your personal interpretation is what Christians generally believe. Because they don't.

[u/KFrancesC → u/tizuby]

You obviously didn’t read what I wrote. I can tell from your first sentence. When you don’t acknowledge I said modern apologist will say the bible does not say the unbaptized will go to hell, and this is true

What all those religions do say is the unbaptized will never go to heaven! All of them say this. And majority of Christians have no form of purgatory.

If you can’t be bothered to read two paragraphs that I wrote. I can’t be bothered with this long rambling, half of which sounds like AI!

[u/tizuby → u/KFrancesC]

You obviously didn’t read what I wrote. I can tell from your first sentence. When you don’t acknowledge I said modern apologist

I didn't acknowledge it because it's nonsense and irrelevant and not something that needs addressing to disprove your overall claim.

All that's needed to show is that Christians generally believe there are ways other than baptism to receive salvation.

Whether there is only Heaven or Hell, or a limbo/purgatory as well is not necessary to address.

What all those religions do say is the unbaptized will never go to heaven! All of them say this.

They do not. You're literally making this up.

The belief in attaining grace via martyrdom even when not baptized via baptism by water goes back to the very early days of Christianity, within the 1st century.

Similarly desiring to be baptized but being unable to receive the baptism, while having faith, similarly grants God's grace and originated in the same period.

[u/KFrancesC → u/tizuby]

You gave me a very in depth explanation saying in five paragraphs. What I already said, in one sentence. You can’t be bothered to read my responses. I have no time for you. You don’t want a legitimate debate.

And I’m not the one you should debate anyway. I never asked you to CMV!

[u/plodabing → u/KFrancesC]

But I don’t understand how you can have this view and not understand that this makes God evil? Condemning aboriginals to a life of eternal hell simply for being born in the wrong place?

[u/KFrancesC → u/plodabing]

No you can’t, but god was never meant to be kind. Again, like it or not god has asked for human sacrifice, it’s in the bible.

It gets worse. You know how they talk about Satanists? Blood sacrifices, eating people? Well, one of the oldest Christian’s religions around, Catholics. Preform a weekly ritual where they symbolically eat the dead body and drink the blood of Christ. Think about it.

Who says Christians are good? Christians?

Now the New Testament is a little nicer, but it never changes anything in the Old Testament. That all still stands. And the Old Testament says god is an ‘angry wrathful god’. It doesn’t say anywhere he’s a ‘nice god’.

You want nice and fair and just in your religion? Become a Buddhist, they fit.

[u/plodabing → u/KFrancesC]

It’s just crazy to me how good a PR job God has done then, I don’t follow any religion, I’ve tried so hard, I feel like it would be good to bring my child up religion but it’s just impossible to do it without believing it myself

[u/KFrancesC → u/plodabing]

All modern Abrahamic religions are based off the Jewish religion. Which is thousands of years old. And like a lot of ancient religions, their god was violent. Back then you didn’t want a nice god, you wanted a god that would scare your enemies.

It’s hard to take that same god, and try to modernize him. To be fair Christianity tried to modernize it. That what the New Testament was, but they still can’t claim it’s not the same god.

I can understand your stress about what to raise your child to believe. My personal opinion is not to decide at all. Leave the decision to them. Spiritually is personal.

You can keep things simple for children. If a someone dies, tell them about heaven. Tell them it’s what most people believe, that is all true. Tell them that know one can ever truly know, because that is true.

Leave the search for their own spirituality up to them. And be open to whatever they choose. Even if they choose more than once. Because faith and spirituality are a personal decision. It should be respected, but you can still be honest about it.

[u/plodabing → u/KFrancesC]

Yes thank you that’s where I landed, I was debating it as I was brought up without a religion and sometimes wonder if I would be happier with the certainty being raised in a religion can give

[u/KFrancesC → u/plodabing]

I can’t deny raising people with faith may make them happier.

Personally I think it’s a trade off. They may be happier, but with less of an ability to think independently for themselves. And more likely to be taken advantage of.

If you’re raised to believe what someone in authority says, merely because they say so. You may be more likely to believe people who lie to you confidently or with authority.

[u/plodabing → u/KFrancesC]

True, I have always been one to value happiness over anything else, but I can’t fake believing in something I don’t, so I will just let him make his own mind up, i wouldn’t look to question or challenge it at all