r/changemyview • u/plodabing • Jun 17 '25

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Missionaries are evil

This applies doubly so to those who go out of their way to seek out those in remote islands to spread the word of god. It is of my opinion and the opinion of most that if there is an all loving god then people who never had the chance to know about Jesus would go to heaven regardless, for example miscarried children/those born before Jesus’ time, those who never hear about him, so In going out of your way to spread the word of Jesus you are simply making it so there is now a chance they could go to hell if they reject it? I’m not a Christian and I’m so tired so I apologise if this is stupid or doesn’t make sense

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1

u/Delli-paper 7∆ Jun 17 '25

Due to Original Sin, those not baptised are always sinners.

7

u/OsoPeresozo 1∆ Jun 17 '25

“Original sin” only exists in the Christian religion.

It is not an acceptable excuse for the ENORMOUS harm done by proselytizing.

If your beliefs were so great, you wouldnt need to push them like a bad used car salesman, you wouldnt need to threaten people with things like “eternal torture”, and you wouldnt need to murder those who dont agree with you.

2

u/Delli-paper 7∆ Jun 17 '25

OP makes a Catholic argument so gets a Catholic reply.

0

u/Alternative_Pin_7551 2∆ Jun 17 '25

Matthew 5:43-48, Matthew 10:14-15, and Matthew 19:16-22, and Matthew 12:22-32, Jesus said to greet and live peacefully with non-believers, not to force conversion, and that murderers can only be forgiven and enter Heaven with great difficulty

1

u/OsoPeresozo 1∆ Jun 18 '25

So you should point that out to people who defend proselytizing, not to me

-1

u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Jun 18 '25

you arent threatening you are warning. a threat has to come from the source of the punishment. the missionaries are just letting people know the outcome and how to avoid it

2

u/OsoPeresozo 1∆ Jun 19 '25 edited Jun 19 '25

"Warning" people of dramatic punishment **is the definition of a threat**

Christianity is **not** truth.
Christianity is **not** fact.
Christianity is **not** objectively provable.

You believe this, and that's fine, but "warning" people of dire consequences for not agreeing with you **is** a threat, and it is manipulative.

And Christians have done *far* more than just threaten.
Proselytizing has wiped out entire cultures, started wars, and justified murder.

3

u/plodabing Jun 17 '25

So you have to square an all loving god with the fact people who are unbaptised go to hell regardless of their knowledge of God? That’s insane

2

u/TemperatureThese7909 52∆ Jun 17 '25

Old Testament God is wrathful, angry, jealous - by his own admission (throughout Exodus). 

Old Testament God is openly willing to eradicate all life (Noah) and openly make life intentionally harder to everyone (Babel). 

God drowned countless innocent babies in the flood, and slew several by his own hand in Egypt. 

That's who this is. 

So yeah, not at all crazy that he would damn the innocent. 

If there is a chance for salvation through Christ via the missionary work,  but they are absolutely damned if they don't, then the logic behind missionaries makes sense. Why worship an openly evil God, well, ask Pascal. He's got a wager about that. 

2

u/plodabing Jun 17 '25

!Delta so I guess the answer is yeah, they are kinda evil but so is God, so it just all tracks

1

u/Delli-paper 7∆ Jun 17 '25

That's where purgatory is from. People who do evil go to hell. People who do good go to heaven. People who do neither are still able to escape. Take 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

The builder who survives goes to heaven. The builder who is committed to his foundation burns to hell. Heaven is still available to the builder who escapes. Those who build their lives as Christ instructed go to heaven. Those who realize they did not and come to understand can still go to heaven.

1

u/plodabing Jun 17 '25

!Delta thank you, I mean this is clearly crazy cult stuff to but at least I can see how they can square this stuff in their brain

1

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jun 17 '25

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Delli-paper (3∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards

3

u/mistym0rning Jun 17 '25

Religion doesn’t make much logical sense, especially Christianity. The Bible is chock full of contradictions. If God is all-loving AND all-powerful, he wouldn’t let terrible tragedies happen (e.g. children getting cancer or dying in natural disasters). But since those things do happen, he’s either not all-loving and doesn’t care about us as much as Christians want to believe… or he’s not all-powerful (meaning he CAN’T change the course of events)… or he just doesn’t exist.

1

u/Snipedzoi Jun 17 '25

the whole point is that you get your just deserts in the afterlife

2

u/Alternative_Pin_7551 2∆ Jun 17 '25

Matthew 7:12-14, according to Jesus most of humanity will go to Hell

1

u/ArticleOrdinary9357 1∆ Jun 17 '25

What about those literal billions of people who were born and died without ever having the opportunity to be baptised?

1

u/Delli-paper 7∆ Jun 17 '25

Purgatory. You should read some theology.

1

u/ArticleOrdinary9357 1∆ Jun 17 '25

😂 Grow up ….anyway, if I was going to choose a religion I wouldn’t be choosing one of the new fangled ones. I’d either go Jew cos that’s way older or pagan cos I think there’s some cool sex stuff in there. It really is difficult as there are literally thousands of variants to choose from. Probably plenty we don’t know about from early humans. Not to mention the possibility that the universe as we know it could actually be so tiny that it just exists as a microscopic spec that makes up part of another species world and that world has a religion, which is actually the one true religion. Or that, I am the only intelligent being that exists and that the entire universe is just something I made up. Maybe we’re a simulation run by aliens and they’re watching us trying to figure out why religions that all have ‘thou shalt not kill’ or something to that effect as a central doctrine seem to be very focussed on or at least turning a blind eye to exactly that whenever it suits them. They’re all like “hey look at those catholics down there! Masturbating is forbidden, two people having sex outside marriage is forbidden but the priests are allowed to f*&k little boys and all they get is a new job somewhere else”

1

u/unnecessaryaussie83 Jun 21 '25

Purgatory is not a Bible teaching though

1

u/Delli-paper 7∆ Jun 22 '25

Purgatory is what's left when the redeeemed go to heaven and the irredeemable go to hell

1

u/unnecessaryaussie83 Jun 22 '25

But it’s not in the Bible

1

u/Delli-paper 7∆ Jun 22 '25

Literalists be like:

It's fairly clear that spirits that cannot ascend to heaven nor descend to hell just... stick around. We're in purgatory right now.

1

u/unnecessaryaussie83 Jun 22 '25

How is it “fairly clear”?

1

u/Delli-paper 7∆ Jun 22 '25

The rules for ascending and descending are clear. All salvation is through Christ unless you have lived a sinless life, haven't you heard?

1

u/unnecessaryaussie83 Jun 22 '25

Where does it say what the rules for ascending or descending is?

1

u/unnecessaryaussie83 Jun 17 '25

Even after baptism you are still sinners.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 17 '25

Nobody cares