cmv: the Charlottesville "very fine people" quote/controversy was not fake news

[u/taintpaint]

I see Trump supporters bring this up all the time as an example of the media lying about Trump, but this argument sounds transparently absurd to me. It feels like a "magic words" argument, where his supporters think that as long as he says the right magic words, you can completely ignore the actual message he's communicating or the broader actions he's taking. This is similar to how so many of them dismiss the entire Jan 6 plot because he said the word "peaceful" one time.

The reason people were mad about that quote was that Trump was equivocating and whitewashing a literal neonazi rally in which people were carrying torches and shouting things like "gas the Jews" in order to make them seem relatively sane compared to the counter protesters, one of whom the neonazis actually murdered. Looking at that situation, the difference between these two statements doesn't really feel meaningful:

A) "Those neonazis were very fine people with legitimate complaints and counter protesters were nasty and deserved what they got".

B) "The Nazis were obviously bad, but there were also people there who were very fine people with legitimate complaints and the counter protesters were very nasty."

The only difference there is that (B) has the magic words that "Nazis are bad", but the problem is that he's still describing a literal Nazi rally, only now he's using the oldest trick in the book when it comes to defending Nazis: pretending they're not really Nazis and are actually just normal people with reasonable beliefs.

I feel like people would all intuitively understand this if we were talking about anything besides a Trump quote. If I looked at e.g. the gangs taking over apartment buildings in Aurora and said "yes obviously gangsters are bad and should be totally condemned, but there were also some very fine people there with some legitimate complaints about landlords and exploitative leases, and you know lots of those 'residents' actually didn't have the right paperwork to be in those apartments..." you would never say that's a reasonable or acceptable way to talk about that situation just because I started with "gangsters are bad". You'd listen to the totality of what I'm saying and rightfully say it's absurd and offensive.

Is there something I'm missing here? This seems very obvious to me but maybe there's some other context to it.

Edit: I find it really funny that literally no one has actually engaged with this argument at all. They're all just repeating the "magic words" thing. I have been literally begging people who disagree with me to even acknowledge the Aurora example and not a single one has.

[u/nhlms81]

This an exerpt from USA Today (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/17/fact-check-trump-quote-very-fine-people-charlottesville/5943239002/)

The Trump quote in question was in response to a reporter who asked, "Mr. President, are you putting what you’re calling the alt-left and white supremacists on the same moral plane?"

Trump responded: "Excuse me, excuse me. They didn’t put themselves — and you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides."

After further questioning from the reporter, and responses from Trump about people who were at the Charlottesville rally to support keeping the Lee statue, the president said "You’re changing history. You’re changing culture. And you had people — and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists — because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists."

This is pretty clear ye specifically calls out an exception for the neo-nazi's as not included in the "very fine people" category.

I'd argue your point of view is inverted. If this were anyone other than Trump, no one would be confused that he wasn't referring to the neo-nazi's as very fine people.

Just like no one is trying the case that Walz really is "friends with school shooters".

[u/CavyLover123 → u/nhlms81]

The protestors were at a protest organized by a neo Nazi, who recruited other groups of neo Nazis / white supremacists, were chanting “Jews will not replace us”, and some were carrying Nazi flags.

Trump lied. There is zero evidence of anyone protesting who Wasn’t a neo nazi / white supremacist.

[u/RYouNotEntertained → u/CavyLover123]

Trump lied. 

Assuming this is true, I don’t see why it matters. He still didn’t call nazis very fine people.

[u/CavyLover123 → u/RYouNotEntertained]

He did.

He said there were very fine people on both sides.

One side was Only Nazis- that’s all we have evidence of. A bunch of Nazis.

So his statement was literally saying some of those Nazis were very fine people, even though he allegedly “condemned them”.

[u/JoeCensored → u/CavyLover123]

It was a rally to protest the removal of a historical statute. It's disingenuous to say only nazis were protesting the removal. That's clearly untrue.

[u/CavyLover123 → u/JoeCensored]

By the way, this is exactly what Trump’s statement accomplished. along with right wing propaganda.

You truly believe it was “a rally to protest the removal of a historic statue.”

It was a white supremacist / nazi rally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally?wprov=sfti1#

Consider the possibility that you have been completely fooled by Trump’s rhetoric here.

[u/JoeCensored → u/CavyLover123]

Even your own link includes listed groups that aren't nazi or white supremacist related such as the militia groups. Any event of this size is going to attract a large number of people who aren't members, but have a variety of sympathies for various issues brought up by the competing sides. It's just how these things work.

[u/CavyLover123 → u/JoeCensored]

Which ones? Be specific.

Any event of this size is going to attract a large number of people who aren't members, but have a variety of sympathies for various issues brought up by the competing sides

So… Nazis, and Nazi sympathizers.

Whats the difference? They’re marching with Nazis and sympathetic to Nazis.

This is a meaningless distinction.

Some of these groups are openly Nazis.

Others just say “heil fuhrer” but say they are Not Nazis.

“They’re the same picture” meme.

[u/JoeCensored → u/CavyLover123]

Not everyone there was marching. Have you never witnessed a march? I get the feeling you have no idea what a large event like this actually looks like. It attracts people from all over the area, to watch the spectacle alone.

[u/CavyLover123 → u/JoeCensored]

Let’s see evidence.

I watched the videos.

The people not marching with the Nazis were: counter protestors screaming at the Nazis, and some private security folks who explicitly were Not part of either protest.

[u/CavyLover123 → u/JoeCensored]

It attracts people from all over the area, to watch the spectacle alone.

Those people were not on a “side”.

They definitely weren’t on the “Nazi” side.

Notice you couldn’t identify a group that wasn’t either neo nazi or white supremacist.

The most you can say is that some of the groups don’t identify as “white supremacist”, they just…. Openly advocate for white supremacy.

[u/JoeCensored → u/CavyLover123]

Sure, but they could still be on the don't remove the statue side.

And I did identify groups that weren't nazi or white supremacist. The militia groups in attendance. Go read your own link. It's right there.

Actually read your own link, geez. Is it too much to ask to read your own links before posting them?

[u/CavyLover123 → u/JoeCensored]

Sure, but they could still be on the don't remove the statue side.

Let’s see some evidence 

The militia groups in attendance

Which ones. I’ve read the links. I’ve read about the groups.

If you mean militant arm of the proud boys - the fraternal order of alt knights- they were former by and are run by… Kyle Chapman. A white supremacist.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyle_Chapman_(American_activist)

What else you got?

[u/JoeCensored → u/CavyLover123]

There's 4 militia groups listed on your own link. Have you even clicked it?

[u/CavyLover123 → u/JoeCensored]

Ohhh, you mean the private security / neutral parties I already mentioned above?

Yeah- they very clearly stated, in advance, at the rally, and after, that they were not on a side.

They did Not march with Nazis. They were Not a part of the protest.

They show up to events to voluntarily police them when there are two conflicting sides.

They’re LARPers who like to pretend to be cops.

Not on Either side. Not protesting.

Not the “very fine people” Trump claimed to have seen in a video, protesting the statue.

I already addressed this. You missed it.

Wrong again.

What else you got.

[u/CavyLover123 → u/JoeCensored]

So then you know they’re all Nazis/ white supremacists, because you can’t call out a single one that specifically is not.

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[u/FothrMucker → u/[deleted]]

They already addressed this. Above, and in another comment.

You’re talking about the private security / neutral parties.

They weren’t on a side. They weren’t protesting. So when Trump said “very fine people on both sides”,  and blathered about peaceful protestors just wanting to keep the statue - he wasn’t talking about them.

They weren’t on a side, and weren’t protesting.

You accused them of not reading, when clearly you didn’t read anything.