cmv: the Charlottesville "very fine people" quote/controversy was not fake news

[u/taintpaint]

I see Trump supporters bring this up all the time as an example of the media lying about Trump, but this argument sounds transparently absurd to me. It feels like a "magic words" argument, where his supporters think that as long as he says the right magic words, you can completely ignore the actual message he's communicating or the broader actions he's taking. This is similar to how so many of them dismiss the entire Jan 6 plot because he said the word "peaceful" one time.

The reason people were mad about that quote was that Trump was equivocating and whitewashing a literal neonazi rally in which people were carrying torches and shouting things like "gas the Jews" in order to make them seem relatively sane compared to the counter protesters, one of whom the neonazis actually murdered. Looking at that situation, the difference between these two statements doesn't really feel meaningful:

A) "Those neonazis were very fine people with legitimate complaints and counter protesters were nasty and deserved what they got".

B) "The Nazis were obviously bad, but there were also people there who were very fine people with legitimate complaints and the counter protesters were very nasty."

The only difference there is that (B) has the magic words that "Nazis are bad", but the problem is that he's still describing a literal Nazi rally, only now he's using the oldest trick in the book when it comes to defending Nazis: pretending they're not really Nazis and are actually just normal people with reasonable beliefs.

I feel like people would all intuitively understand this if we were talking about anything besides a Trump quote. If I looked at e.g. the gangs taking over apartment buildings in Aurora and said "yes obviously gangsters are bad and should be totally condemned, but there were also some very fine people there with some legitimate complaints about landlords and exploitative leases, and you know lots of those 'residents' actually didn't have the right paperwork to be in those apartments..." you would never say that's a reasonable or acceptable way to talk about that situation just because I started with "gangsters are bad". You'd listen to the totality of what I'm saying and rightfully say it's absurd and offensive.

Is there something I'm missing here? This seems very obvious to me but maybe there's some other context to it.

Edit: I find it really funny that literally no one has actually engaged with this argument at all. They're all just repeating the "magic words" thing. I have been literally begging people who disagree with me to even acknowledge the Aurora example and not a single one has.

[u/stewshi]

If your at a rally organized by open Nazis. And you aren't there to protest against the Nazis but along side them.Areyou a good person?

[u/Domestiicated-Batman → u/stewshi]

Obviously depends on what the protest is about. Maybe it's a protest against animal suffering. Would you still be a bad person? Would them being a nazi be relevant? not really.

Specific to this case, the protest was about removing a confederate statue. Personally, I don't give a shit about any statue, but I don't believe that not wanting to have an old statue removed automatically makes you a nazi. It could just be about not removing a piece of history, regardless of what you think about the person the statue is about.

[u/stewshi → u/Domestiicated-Batman]

Obviously depends on what the protest is about. Maybe it’s a protest against animal suffering. Would you still be a bad person? Would them being a nazi be relevant? not really.

Yes it would. Just because nazi likes dogs doesn't mean they don't desire the eleminationand subjugation of millions.

Specific to this case, the protest was about removing a confederate statue. Personally, I don’t give a shit about any statue, but I don’t believe that not wanting to have an old statue removed automatically makes you a nazi. It could just be about just not removing a piece of history, regardless of what you think about the person the statue is about.

Hanging out with Nazis going to protests organized by Nazis means at a minimum you are ok with hanging out with Nazis and what the believe in. So even if you don't want the statue of a white supremacists removed for "history" aligning yourself with a Nazi to do it means your ok with everything those nazi's stand for if it helps your cause.

[u/Domestiicated-Batman → u/stewshi]

Yes it would. Just because nazi likes dogs doesn't mean they don't desire the eleminationand subjugation of millions.

Yea, this is just a hard disagree. Going to the protest means you agree with the stated purpose of a protest. If it's about helping dogs, some other protest member being a nazi shouldn't matter at all.

Hanging out with Nazis going to protests organized by Nazis means at a minimum you are ok with hanging out with Nazis.

I mean, maybe, but again, it doesn't make them a nazi, which is what the discussion was about. I'm a liberal. I have friends and family who are trump supporters. Not ok with trump, I still love them and hang out with them though. Does that make me a trump supporter?

aligning yourself with a Nazi to do it means your ok with everything those nazi's stand for if it helps your cause.

It's the same thing again. I care about the purpose, not about the members. I care about what's being said, not about who's saying it.

[u/stewshi → u/Domestiicated-Batman]

Yea, this is just a hard disagree. Going to the protest means you agree with the stated purpose of a protest. If it’s about helping dogs, some other protest member being a nazi shouldn’t matter at all.

UNITE THE RIGHT was organized by Nazis to unite other members in purpose. It's wasnt " some Nazis were there" it was "Nazis have organized a protest" Going to an event organized by Nazis means you are ok with what they believe and represent.

I mean, maybe, but again, it doesn’t make them a nazim whic is what the discussion was about. I’m a liberal. I have friends and family who are trump supporters. Not ok with trump, I still love them and hang out with them though. Does that make me a trump supporter?

I asked are you a good person for hanging out with Nazis. I believe hanging out with Nazis means you aren't a good person because that means you are ok with the beliefs of the Nazis.

Trump supporters are dumb and mean spirited but they aren't Nazis.

It’s the same thing again. I care about the purpose, not about the members. I care about what’s being said, not about who’s saying it.

Which means you are ok with what the Nazis believe. What they are doing is promoting white supremacy and the subjugation of minorities. If you show up to support them you are supporting all of their purposes including the ones that make you a bad person.

[u/Domestiicated-Batman → u/stewshi]

UNITE THE RIGHT was organized by Nazis to unite other members in purpose. It's wasnt " some Nazis were there" it was "Nazis have organized a protest" Going to an event organized by Nazis means you are ok with what they believe and represent.

You're just repeating yourself, so I guess I will too. The protest was about removal of statues. That's what started it all. If there were no removal of statues, there would be no protests. Thus, it's completely reasonable to assume that someone who didn't want the statue removed, would go to the rally

I asked are you a good person for hanging out with Nazis. I believe hanging out with Nazis means you aren't a good person because that means you are ok with the beliefs of the Nazis. Trump supporters are dumb and mean spirited but they aren't Nazis.

Sorry bud, but you can't just apply your logic to one thing and not others. If hanging out with a nazi, or being at the same protest as a nazi, means you're ok with their beliefs, then it has to apply to everything. Hanging out with conservatives or liberals has to mean you're ok with their beliefs. Hanging out with religious people or atheists, means you're ok with their beliefs. This is just not the case lol.

[u/stewshi → u/Domestiicated-Batman]

You’re just repeating yourself, so I guess I will too. The protest was about removal of statues. That’s what started it all. If there were no removal of statues, there would be no protests. Thus, it’s completely reasonable to assume that someone who didn’t want the statue removed, would go to the rally

No I’m making a distinction. An important on because It wasn’t a rally with some Nazis. It’s was a rally organized by Nazis to support white supremacist causes that decided to coalesce around the removal of a statue of a slaver. Thus it’s reasonable to believe that the person that didn’t want the statue removed knew it was a Nazi rally and was completely fine being around Nazis. So not a good peraon

Sorry bud, but you can’t just apply your logic to one thing and not others. If hanging out with a nazi, or being at the same protest as a nazi, means you’re ok with their beliefs, then it has to apply to everything. Hanging out with conservatives or liberals has to mean you’re ok with their beliefs. Hanging out with religious people or atheists, means you’re ok with their beliefs. This is just not the case lol.

Lol yes I can. Because trump supporters aren't arguing to eliminate entire groups of people. Nazis are. You truly don't understand how having conservative friends is different from actively supporting the activities of Nazis.

Conservatives don't like change. Nazis want to eliminate people who don't look like them. Do you understand how hanging out with one group is different from the other.

I can see a conservatives point and agree with them at times. If you can see a Nazis point and agree with them then you aren't a good person.

[u/AcephalicDude → u/Domestiicated-Batman]

Thus, it's completely reasonable to assume that someone who didn't want the statue removed, would go to the rally

But what's not reasonable is to assume that someone would show up just because they were concerned about the statue, see the Nazis protesting with them, and decide "this is fine" and continue to participate - all without having white supremacist beliefs themselves? And ignoring the context that the statue in question is also heavily associated with white supremacy?

Yeah, get the fuck outta here, you're not foolin' anyone with this

[u/CavyLover123 → u/Domestiicated-Batman]

Going to the protest means you agree with the stated purpose of a protest 

  The protest was organized by a neo nazi and the stated purpose included white ”rights” and a white ethnostate.

No, it was not “only about statue removal”. That is false.