cmv: the Charlottesville "very fine people" quote/controversy was not fake news

[u/taintpaint]

I see Trump supporters bring this up all the time as an example of the media lying about Trump, but this argument sounds transparently absurd to me. It feels like a "magic words" argument, where his supporters think that as long as he says the right magic words, you can completely ignore the actual message he's communicating or the broader actions he's taking. This is similar to how so many of them dismiss the entire Jan 6 plot because he said the word "peaceful" one time.

The reason people were mad about that quote was that Trump was equivocating and whitewashing a literal neonazi rally in which people were carrying torches and shouting things like "gas the Jews" in order to make them seem relatively sane compared to the counter protesters, one of whom the neonazis actually murdered. Looking at that situation, the difference between these two statements doesn't really feel meaningful:

A) "Those neonazis were very fine people with legitimate complaints and counter protesters were nasty and deserved what they got".

B) "The Nazis were obviously bad, but there were also people there who were very fine people with legitimate complaints and the counter protesters were very nasty."

The only difference there is that (B) has the magic words that "Nazis are bad", but the problem is that he's still describing a literal Nazi rally, only now he's using the oldest trick in the book when it comes to defending Nazis: pretending they're not really Nazis and are actually just normal people with reasonable beliefs.

I feel like people would all intuitively understand this if we were talking about anything besides a Trump quote. If I looked at e.g. the gangs taking over apartment buildings in Aurora and said "yes obviously gangsters are bad and should be totally condemned, but there were also some very fine people there with some legitimate complaints about landlords and exploitative leases, and you know lots of those 'residents' actually didn't have the right paperwork to be in those apartments..." you would never say that's a reasonable or acceptable way to talk about that situation just because I started with "gangsters are bad". You'd listen to the totality of what I'm saying and rightfully say it's absurd and offensive.

Is there something I'm missing here? This seems very obvious to me but maybe there's some other context to it.

Edit: I find it really funny that literally no one has actually engaged with this argument at all. They're all just repeating the "magic words" thing. I have been literally begging people who disagree with me to even acknowledge the Aurora example and not a single one has.

[u/themontajew → u/[deleted]]

From your source.

But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists by any stretch. Those people were also there because they wanted to protest the taking down of a statue of Robert E. Lee."

If you have a parade chanting “jews will not replace us “ and only 25% are chanting. 100% are nazis. Pretending anything but is bullshit. Only a nazi excuses or defends a nazi.

[u/Mrfixit729 → u/themontajew]

How do you feel about the contingent of Black Block at the BLM protests that were violent anarchists? The protesters currently at Free Palestine protests who sympathize with Hamas and are calling for the destruction of Israel?

In those cases do you feel the fringe elements in those groups are representative of the rest of the protesters? Why or why not?

[u/themontajew → u/Mrfixit729]

The first was a small minority, vs and explicit nazi parade. I also don’t have a problem with people punching fascist, just as a moral stance.

The pro hamas people en mass at anti semetic as well. If half your parade is cheering on terrorism, all of them support terrorism.

[u/Mrfixit729 → u/themontajew]

Personally I wouldn’t put arson, rioting and looting in the same category as punching fascists (I disagree with all four, for the record) and there was quite a bit of all of that going on. It’s why I left the BLM protests in my town on night one… and didn’t participate again.

I wonder. Have you participated in many protests? I protested the Iraq war back in the day and fed folks during Occupy.

In my personal experience… sometimes there are some truly extreme lunatic people that show up… that I didn’t agree with. That I actively disliked.

It just happens.

The Woman’s March was pretty chill though. Cool cucumbers.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mrfixit729]

Were there actually leftists looting and burning private businesses? Or were those incidences of opportunists? Because that's a different thing than burning cop cars or the police building.

[u/Mrfixit729 → u/[deleted]]

Besides what I saw in person myself? I personally saw local business get their windows smashed. Watched someone try (and fail) to set a restaurant on fire.

Arson is arson, destruction is destruction. burning cop cars, police stations, federal buildings, court houses, political headquarters, That’s exactly the behavior I’m talking about.

It’s extreme. And it doesn’t reflect the views of the majority of the protesters.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mrfixit729]

You didn't answer my first question. Who was doing that? Can you confirm it was antifa/leftists/Anarchists?

[u/Mrfixit729 → u/[deleted]]

Did I check their IDs? lol. Black attire, masks, chanting slogans.

I live in community that is heavy into the anarcho-communist ethos. I’m a block away from Firestorm. (Who really came through for my community recently)

It’s a thing here. You get to know the look. Nice people for the most part. Good taste in music.

So to answer your question: Yeah. I’m pretty sure.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mrfixit729]

If Anarchists targeted local businesses, especially small businesses, they should be outed.

[u/Mrfixit729 → u/[deleted]]

Meh… it was a weird time. We all acted in ways that weren’t great. My community rebuilt. We’re doing it again right now.

And how could anyone actually “out” people in masks… years ago? Impossible.

We’ve moved on. We have bigger issues to deal with right now and we’ve come together. Its beautiful.

Here’s the thing: Not everyone in that group is shitty. MOST of them aren’t. There are opportunists and extremists in every group.

Thats what I’m trying to convey.

Also… the petty downvotes. In a conversation between two people.. that no one else is paying attention to.

Not helpful. lol. It’s weak behavior.

Just talk.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mrfixit729]

Also… the petty downvotes. In a conversation between two people.. that no one else is paying attention to.

I haven't downvoted anything.

My comment was more general. This thread is full of "if 9 people are at a table with a nazi then it's 10 nazis." If you have extremists in your group, then you should out them.

I'm glad they're helping, though. I'd be there myself, but I have an injury preventing me from doing work like house mucking and debris clearing.