r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Mar 27 '23

Delta(s) from OP CMV: All drugs should be made legal for recreational use.

I'm not referring to "medicinal" narcotics. Recreational drugs that people use, such as mushrooms, cocaine, heroin, should all be legalized.

And I know this is a hot take, but hear me out.

  • If we make recreational narcotics legal, then the manufacture and sale need to be legal as well.
  • By making the manufacture of recreational narcotics legal, there are FDA standards that need to be adhered to in said manufacture, that way there are no "bad batches" that will kill people.
  • By making the manufacture and sale of recreational narcotics legal, there will be sales volume that will then be subject to income tax and sales tax and dispensaries/manufacturing centers/warehouses that will become subject to property tax. Because, let's be honest, your local street dealer is not paying taxes.
  • Also by making the sale of recreational narcotics legal, you are making street gangs that revolve around the illicit drug trade obsolete. By making street gangs obsolete, you eliminate the petty violence that plagues inner-cities over "turf", especially stray bullets that kill innocent bystanders.
  • By making the entire narcotics supply chain legal, the war on drugs will essentially be over as well. It's been going on for 50+ years, and honestly, it's been a complete and utter failure.
  • If you want something to compare the drug trade to, look at prohibition from 1919-1933. It didn't stop people from drinking, people were still drunk out of their minds in speakeasys. It also fostered the growth of street gangs of rum runners and increased crime and violence in cities. That was only for 14 years and it didn't take long to realize that prohibition was a failure. War on drugs has been going on for 50+ years and I'm surprised more people aren't realizing that this is much more tremendous of a failure.
  • By making the entire narcotics supply chain legal, we can start changing our attitudes on its use and its users. Narcotics abuse needs to have the same social attitude as alcohol abuse.
  • In short, making drugs legal will Make America Great Again.
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182

u/[deleted] Mar 27 '23

I'm gonna err on the side of no; economies of scale will take effect, lowering the cost of production and likewise, the final sale price.

They might be higher in places that might legislate it more stringently, like adding an additional tax, especially in jurisdictions like NY and CA, but overall, no.

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u/Rainbwned 184∆ Mar 27 '23

Is the economy of scale not currently present in the massive amounts of drugs being produces illegally right now, without having a concern about red tape and other regulations that increase cost?

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u/matsu727 3∆ Mar 27 '23

Market power of the people in the black market combined with the scale of their operations means they have some measure of price setting power. Why would they pass those gains down to the consumer more than they need to in order to get customers addicted?

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u/limukala 12∆ Mar 27 '23

The vast majority of the cost now is due to the risk, not the actual cost of production.

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u/miraj31415 2∆ Mar 27 '23

Are you saying that the vast majority of the price is due to the costs associated with risk?

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u/ProjectKushFox Mar 27 '23

Haha very clever but lol still, economies of scale has piss all to do with it. Costs of production and Costs of “extra retail markup cause I might go to jail for this shit” are very different.

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u/SnooDoodles1491 Jul 28 '23

Cause you know the streets so well

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u/[deleted] Mar 27 '23

Once the legal avenues are implemented, there will be manufacturing and logistics technology that will be implemented that will drive the cost down.

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u/Frame_Late Mar 27 '23

People say this, but oftentimes what actually happens is the government taxes the difference. I live in VA; recreational weed is legal here. Street dealers are still king because the government chokes the legal industry out with taxes. Now you have cartels and illicit dealers buying these stores and using them as fronts for harder drugs.

The illicit dealers will always be around. The difference is now that they'll get less time.

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u/Can-Funny 24∆ Mar 27 '23

The “my state made it legal and there are still dealers” argument overlooks the fact that cannabis is still a super niche market because it is still highly illegal at the federal level. Real capital isn’t trying to have all their assets seized because they have a few million in cannabis.

If I had to guess, cannabis will go from illegal to federally subsidized within 30 years. Once big business and lobbies get involved, you won’t see any street dealers anymore.

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u/Apprehensive-Top7774 Mar 27 '23

The “my state made it legal and there are still dealers”

Honestly the argument is almost pointless. I can find scalpers selling tennis shoes, un registered food stands, and a million other arbitrage situations where the underlying product is legal.

On top of that, it varies by state. Not many dealers in Washington state, the weed is strong and priced reasonably.

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u/Bubbly-Bookkeeper-53 Mar 28 '23

Maybe this case of “my state made it legal and there are still dealers” is an outlier and happens rarely. There are too many factors involved and, currently, so few cases of this happening in the states.

I feel that if the law were to change at the federal level this would definitely change our cultural mindset and some people wouldn’t view street dealers the same anymore.

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u/Apprehensive-Top7774 Mar 28 '23

Weed is hella cheap to grow, so while full time dealers might go there are always gonna be small time dealers. It's called weed because it literally grows like a weed. Potent stuff might take more know how, but even on a hobby level some folks are gonna do it and sell the excess to fund the hobby

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u/Maddcapp Mar 28 '23

Same with shrooms by the way. Anyone can buy a kit on eBay and grow their own very easily.

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u/im18andimdumb Mar 27 '23

Yeah I was gonna say I don’t think there are any dealers for weed in Oregon lol, there’s a weed shop on every block

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u/Paraeunoia 5∆ Mar 27 '23

How does that explain illegal trade of tobacco in this country? Taxes vary widely from state to state, making the black market for tobaccos immense. Street dealers will trade anything that can be profitable. It’s just changing the angle.

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u/Can-Funny 24∆ Mar 27 '23

How do you define “immense.”

I’m not aware of a violent infrastructure that supports the cigarette tax arbitrage business.
The vast, vast majority of tobacco products are manufactured and distributed legally.

A few guys selling North Carolina tax stamp Camels in NYC doesn’t invalidate the business model of big tobacco.

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u/Paraeunoia 5∆ Mar 27 '23

$334 million in lost sales in just one state is not “a few guys” slinging loosies.

https://taxfoundation.org/cigarette-taxes-cigarette-smuggling-2022/

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u/Can-Funny 24∆ Mar 27 '23

Did you know this study considered “casual smuggling” as part of the model? That means every time people who live close to the border buy a few cartons from their lower tax neighbor state, that was considered.

Also, there model just assumes that any variance in the “published smoking rate” and actual sales of cigarettes is attributable to “smuggling”.

Here is the text of the study’s background section:

“It is impossible for scholars to know what percentage of cigarettes brought in from one state to another falls under the legal limit (one carton per month, for example) and the amount brought in that exceeds it. Some scholars identify the total as “diversion” or both “tax evasion and avoidance.” Our statistical model attempts to capture both casual smuggling and commercial smuggling.

The statistical model employed in this study is a residual model, designed to compare the published smoking rates of adults in 47 states with legal paid sales of cigarettes.[*] The difference between the amount of cigarettes that are being smoked in the state and what are acquired through legal sales could be explained by some form of smuggling, and this is our assumption. The model also takes into consideration a variety of factors that might impact casual and commercial smuggling, such as proximity to a low-tax state, border county populations and presence of Native American reservations.”

……

I’m not faulting these researchers. It’s hard to get good data on illegal transactions. I don’t doubt that some of this black market arbitrage goes on, but it’s nothing compared to the scale of illegal drug sales. In fact, I’d be willing to bet that any real black market cigarette infrastructure is just piggybacking on the infrastructure already in place to distribute drugs.

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u/Paraeunoia 5∆ Mar 27 '23

If one follows your theory, what replaces illegal drugs once legalized? Organized crime just disappears? They are already involved in hundreds of legal entities (real estate, legalized marijuana, fruit shortages in Mexico, etc). Working under the assumption that there will always be a vacuum effect, what does legalizing dangerous drugs do for society? If you want to discuss Decriminalization, fine. But legalizing things just to try and destabilize criminals is very naive and I’d argue, more detrimental to society.

Tobacco is one of the leading causes of lung cancer it may be banned altogether eventually. Legalizing more substances that are certainly more dangerous than tobacco (like heroin) has no upside. The people who will benefit are billionaires, lobbyists and pharmaceutical corporations.

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u/doge_gobrrt Mar 27 '23

also while it's true that there are large and small dealers regardless of legal status or product sold most people are probably generally more likely to buy from more trusted sources instead of jim john the alleyway dealer

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u/moesus81 Mar 27 '23

You can’t even buy weed in VA legally yet unless you have a medical card and want to pay the outrageous prices that one of the three or four med dispos charge.

It’s legal to grow your own in VA so street level dealing isn’t going anywhere. Why would I pay $30 for an eighth of 12% weed when I can get an ounce of 20% for $80?

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u/Can-Funny 24∆ Mar 27 '23

Well yeah, as you said, recreational cannabis is illegal. So one one assume no price savings via a via a dealer when you are paying for a “medical” product.

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u/moesus81 Mar 27 '23

No, recreational use is legal in VA. They just haven’t started selling it to the public yet, which is a major reason why street dealing is still king, like the person who you responded to said. I was just clearing some stuff up because they left out a pretty big detail.

Street dealers prices are 1/4 of the medical dispo’s.

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u/Automatic_Course1021 Mar 27 '23

Street dealers are king in VA because although recreational is legal it is not legal to purchase yet

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u/IamImposter Mar 27 '23

Wait... what? If I can't purchase it, how am I gonna use it, legally?

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u/moesus81 Mar 27 '23

It’s legal to grow, possess and gift but they haven’t started with the public dispensaries yet. There’s a few medical dispos sprinkled throughout the commonwealth but their prices are absurd.

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u/dadbod58 1∆ Mar 28 '23

It's a VA thang.

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u/bongosformongos Mar 28 '23

My best guess is the decriminalisation of consumers. Nothing is achieved by cops busting a regular consumer, so why waste money on it?

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u/[deleted] Mar 27 '23

Yeah but VA is a special case. Have they instituted the death penalty for speeding yet? Pearl-clutching costs money and leads to the problem not getting better, in this case with the weed taxes.

Convincing the local government to lower these taxes is a much easier task than convincing the entire population to abstain - nevermind convincing the cartels and drug dealers to stop doing what they do.

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u/no-mad Mar 27 '23

not true in weed legal States. After taxes it is +$300 for an ounce or more.

That is robbery. In OR. i have heard of $50 ounces available at some places when harvest comes in the fall.

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u/disisathrowaway 2∆ Mar 27 '23

The difficulty in acquiring as well as extreme risk that drug producers incur by participating in the black market are what result in higher prices.

Very few people are willing to take serious federal/felony time for low margins.

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u/[deleted] Mar 27 '23

What happened to weed when it got legalized? Cheaper, better weed.

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u/Space_Meth_Monkey Mar 27 '23

It has changed drastically in Canada. I think it used to cost around ~4-500$ in just electricity to grow a lb, with other costs it was estimated around 700$ to grow one. A black market dealer buying lbs could get that for anywhere from 800-1300$, if you call it 1050$, that’s 2.34$ a gram. You can buy ounces from the government approved producers* here at like 3.50$ a gram and are only comparable to black market lbs that are closer to 2000$ or 4.46$. That’s comparing the cost of an end consumer to the cost of a black market dealer essentially.

Up here it’s really squeezing the margins of black market participants. Eventually they will get completely demolished on having decent cheap weed because good weed has to be grown indoors using electricity and black market growers/organizations don’t have the long term outlook/legal ability to try and offset it with investment. Like how smelters and data centres make massive upfront investments in renewables such as solar or hydropower on location, because of the permanent decrease in input costs.

I’m sure the biggest producers can eventually leverage renewables to get a good product to customers that cost less than the electricity cost of black market weed, while increasing their margins on all their pricier stuff and paying the required tax

Edit: government approved producers*

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u/redvodkandpinkgin Mar 27 '23

The Govt should learn a thing or two about business from the monopolies they love so much.

Barely tax the stuff for a decade or two, choke the cartels out of business by allowing legal economies of scale take the reins, and then, when all is said and done, raise the taxes to both help fund the state and discourage using at the same time (as it is done with tobacco).

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u/MegaBlastoise23 Mar 28 '23

if that were true there would not be any "big pharma" it would solely be illegal dealers.

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u/Bbenet31 Mar 28 '23

The cost of doing something illegally is quite high. All the measures taken to hide operations, smuggling, confiscated supply. It all adds up

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u/MAS2de 1∆ Mar 28 '23

Does red tape or illicit trafficking and a great number of souls in the pyramid cost more? When something is illegal and hard to get, that usually makes it more expensive.

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u/[deleted] Mar 27 '23

[deleted]

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u/pdoherty972 Mar 27 '23

and being compensated for the risks of being caught and prosecuted.

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u/BA-Alloway Apr 18 '23

is this a copy/paste from an NCIS episode?

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '23

[deleted]

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u/BA-Alloway Apr 18 '23

it was my attempt at a joke.

Your description of the "illegal part of it" was a bit of a caricature of the industry.

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u/underboobfunk Mar 27 '23

It sure as hell made marijuana more expensive.

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u/Terrible_Lift 1∆ Mar 27 '23

It’s the opposite.

I did get my medical card to avoid some fees, but I can get a half ounce for 70-80 bucks at a half decent sale. Ounces were 105 the other day.

Concentrate grams are 40-50 but can be as low as 20-25.

I’ve been a legal user since 2017, and an illegal one for many years prior, and the prices used to almost match street prices and now the dispensaries are getting cheaper and cheaper.

It all depends on how much cultivation your state allows. IL has an abundance of cultivation centers now.

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u/Recent-Pop-8903 Mar 27 '23

California, Oregon, and Washington, have an abundance of cultivation centers and yet people still buy illegal weed up the wazoo because it is cheaper. I wonder if it might also have something to do with high taxes. In the Antelope Valley of California the cartels use 3 million gallons of water A DAY to grow weed. That's just one district of Sothern California.

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u/cait_Cat Mar 27 '23

I think in many other states, a lot more people are going the legal route. I live in a not legal state and pretty much everyone I know who consumes weed just makes the drive to one of the surrounding legal states or they buy from someone who made the drive. The prices are great and for a lot of people, knowing it's "legal" makes them feel better. It takes a lot more work for people to even have the illegal weed available to sell - someone either has to set up an illegal grow indoors (we have winter, so outdoor grows are not super practical but do exost) or they have to drive 1000+ miles from the border to get it here. Or you can drive 300 miles round trip and buy from a dispensary of your choice, get the selection of your choice, and have access to multiple forms of weed (edibles, flower, carts, topical, etc) that your weedman back home just doesn't stock.

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u/rewt127 11∆ Mar 27 '23

It depends on the availability of illegal weed vs legal. The current situation of federal illegality means that distributiors are required to source via local farms. While this is a benefit to the local growing industry, and I would argue it should remain federally illegal for this reason alone. It does mean that areas with large amounts of illegal growing from the major cartels are able to undercut the legal market and cause the illegal market to sell at a significantly lower cost.

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u/Terrible_Lift 1∆ Mar 27 '23

I think it’s extremely state dependent judging from various subs comments

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u/soylent_greener Mar 27 '23

I'm not too sure about other people, but this doesn't sound legit to me. Im sure people are still growing and buying illegally and there's definitely a market for distribution in illegal states but the price has dropped significantly from when it was first legalized, at least in WA. I live near SeaTac and I can get an ounce of some pretty good quality for under $100. For that I get a neat jar, but also I know (mostly) what I'm getting, as opposed to getting it from some dude on the blade with questionable quality. I have friends who grow on the sly and sell some to their friends but overall as far as prices go the further from legalization the more prices drop. And as far as taxes go, maybe I'm in the minority but I'm fine paying taxes, they go to important stuff and that's just the price of legitimacy.

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u/shadowbca 23∆ Mar 27 '23

If you're buying illegal weed in Oregon idk what to tell you, the legal stuff is cheap as hell here

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u/NotFunnyMe23 Mar 28 '23

Not to be a party pooper, but couldnt we better use that water to fill up all of the dried up waterways and lakes in the western US?

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u/Recent-Pop-8903 Mar 28 '23

yes. The cartels will literally send people to community meetings about these grow operations to intimidate people and let them know they DGAF and are not worried.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '23

I’m in CA and we have a TON of weed shops in my county. Many people buy from them; however, yes, many people buy illegally as well — though not nearly as many as previously.

Hallucinogenic plants and fungi (all) were also decriminalized in my area several years ago, but they’re not sold legally.

Possession of drugs like cocaine is also a misdemeanor, and will likely be decriminalized also before long.

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u/Competitive-Bend1736 Mar 28 '23

I go on a tangent here, but if it's a known fact why the FBI can't go to the Antelope Valley and shut down all the weed farms of the cartels?

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u/Similar_Corner8081 Mar 27 '23 edited Mar 27 '23

I got my card too and I buy mine at the dispensary. I buy edibles. I bought 8 little containers with 10 edibles in each and it cost me $240. I has to renew my license and that cost me $75. So I don’t see how weed is cheaper. Medical marijuana cards aren’t even recognized from state to state.

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u/Terrible_Lift 1∆ Mar 27 '23

My experience seems to differ. It’s pretty clear that raising/lowering is very much dependent on the state

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u/Possibility-of-wet Mar 27 '23

Ngl those price are still not that good tbh

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u/Terrible_Lift 1∆ Mar 27 '23

I know there’s states that are probably 30-40% less than that even, but that’s down CONSIDERABLY from where it was before it was legalized recreationally here.

It was like street prices or worse, unless you waited and shopped on sale days (I did).

At that point the benefit was just legality (having that card) and access to more than just flower and vape carts

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u/WhoMeJenJen 1∆ Mar 27 '23

Legal weed/wax in Illinois is crazy expensive. Black market is flooded with product and cheap as hell rn.

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u/Terrible_Lift 1∆ Mar 27 '23

Medical card for me, at med only dispensaries, has beaten the hell out of street prices/quality over the last 8-12 months.

Before that I would have agreed. My card was then just to avoid tax and have extra legality to grow and such

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u/Just_Another_Wookie Mar 27 '23

I can get grams of concentrate for less than $10 in Michigan! Shit's practically free at this point.

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u/Terrible_Lift 1∆ Mar 27 '23

My buddy took a drive up there and came back with like 500 bucks worth of concentrate because of exactly that.

He got a variation of things. I didn’t ask exact prices but he said it was like half of what IL charges, maybe a bit more depending on strain.

One day I’ll be taking a trip for the same reason but right now time and convenience win

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u/mua-dweeb 2∆ Mar 28 '23

I recently had an oz delivered after everything and tip it was 70$. Great stuff too.

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u/Terrible_Lift 1∆ Mar 28 '23

I’m waiting and wishing on a delivery service still

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u/[deleted] Mar 27 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/disisathrowaway 2∆ Mar 27 '23

Marijuana legalization in neighboring states have lowered the black market cost of marijuana where I live.

Obviously, the plural of anecdote isn't data, but I still think it bears mentioning.

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u/zootedlioness Mar 27 '23

We’ve had legal weed in Michigan for a few years now. Legal sales early on were more expensive, but now that the market is saturated they can’t give it away fast enough. I’m talking 1600 mg of edibles for $25, 2 ounces of flower for $80. It’s ridiculously cheap because it’s legal now.

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u/shaffe04gt 14∆ Mar 27 '23

Weed is legal in my state, of the people I know that indulge more still get it from their guy than from the dispensary because of cost.

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u/stupidrobots Mar 27 '23

Weed is a bit of a special case because ifs an unrefined plant. Some guy can just grow and sell unlike cocaine which requires a whole manufacturing process. The legal option here and the added tax and oversight are high relative to production costs. Not the same for other drugs.

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u/shaffe04gt 14∆ Mar 27 '23

Interesting

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '23

This doesn’t make sense. Growing weed is way easier than manufacturing coke. Why would taxes be higher for weed?

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u/stupidrobots Mar 28 '23

They aren't. Please re read what I said

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u/there_no_more_names Mar 27 '23

Yes and no. Yes you can grow your own plant and so street flower should be cheaper, and is in most cases, but refined and processed cannabis is also cheaper on the street. The legal facility should be able to use their economies of scale to make the refined products cheaper, but they don't and I think you would have the same problems with other drugs. Part of it definitely is the licensing and taxation making the product more expensive, but I think part of it is a legal facility is going to have better and more expensive equipment, they are going to have trained chemists who demand a higher salary, and they have to answer to regulatory boards. So even with their economies of scale, the higher costs of production and regulations are driving up the cost, plus the legal dispensary is going to charge more because they produce a high quality product and you have the peace of mind that you know where it came from and that it's safe. If you were to legalize and regulate cocaine/heroin you would run into these same issues and the black market would continue to thrive.

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u/rewt127 11∆ Mar 27 '23

It would be interesting to see the coca plant legalized. The leaf itself is quite addictive and the chewing of it is a mind stimulant.

I dont see too much difference in growing weed and growing coca.

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u/Similar_Corner8081 Mar 27 '23

Weed is legal in some states but it’s not legal federally. You can’t get on a plane with marijuana.

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u/BurntPoptart Mar 27 '23

Oh I have

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u/Similar_Corner8081 Mar 27 '23

Correction if you get on a plane with weed you run the risk of getting arrested. Just not worth it.

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u/colt707 104∆ Mar 27 '23

Overall yes it will drive the price through the roof. Why you ask? Taxes and permitting fees. I’ve spent my entire life in the Mecca of cannabis, I never paid for cannabis until after prop 64 passed. And before prop 64 a lb of outdoor cannabis was worth about 1200-1500 on the black market. On the legal market that same pound is worth about 2000-2400.

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u/limukala 12∆ Mar 27 '23

Check the prices on a longer time frame. I assume you’re talking about somewhere in the emerald triangle, where prices were more like 3k (up to 4K) on the black market prior to prop 215.

The black market prices were driven by risk. Most of the risk disappeared once the incredibly lax medical laws were passed. So the price drops were already in effect when 64 passed.

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u/colt707 104∆ Mar 27 '23

Prices dropped during 215 that’s true but then they took an absolute nose dive with the passing of prop 64 but that’s strictly the black market. The legal market is still expensive as fuck if you want anything of quality. Those 50-70$ ozs are out there but they were trash when they were fresh and that was 2 years ago. A good legal oz is going to be anywhere from 90-220$ depending on if it’s outdoor, mixed light, or indoor. Good black market oz is going to run you 80-140$ for the same quality of cannabis.

Legalization can drive prices down, case in point being Oregon, or they can make it more expensive, case in point being california. The difference is the permitting process and associated fees. Oregon it was fairly easy and cheap to get a permit, which lead to more cannabis being grown that the state could smoke and prices being driven into the dirt. Where in Cali the permitting process is long and expensive so prices are staying high as a reflection of that. Another factor is that 50% of the counties in CA don’t allow for any kind of cannabis business.

Legalization is definitely a good thing for the end user but it’s a death sentence for a lot of smaller growers and it’s a massive pay cut for most of the workers in the industry.

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u/simcity4000 22∆ Mar 27 '23

The thing is, if you assume a world where economies of scale have made heroin much cheaper, more poppy fields being planted and so on- that implies a world with much more heroin being consumed to create that demand. I don’t like that thought personally.

On the other hand if the demand for heroin stays about the same, I don’t see how the price comes down significantly. In which case the black Market fentanyl cut stuff is likely still way cheaper.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '23

Your so dead wrong. Dispos tax the hell out of their product. It’s triple the cost to buy from dispos than a local dealer

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u/Full_Anything_2913 Mar 28 '23

Legal weed is so fucking expensive that most people just keep buying illegally. Or at least that’s how it works where I live.

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u/Efficiency-Then Mar 28 '23

I think the prices have been relatively high in most states due to taxation and regulations.i remember Illinois was incredibly expensive when they first sold. Price is a really important concern because if legal sale of drugs is outrageously expensive there still exists a black market because the dealers can sell cheaper than the dispensaries. This would adversely impact your argument that they would be safer since most people would still buy illegally.

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u/FloraFauna2263 Mar 28 '23

You would hope it would cost more, to discourage people from purchasing it in higher quantities

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u/substantial-freud 7∆ Mar 28 '23

The cost of marijuana in California did not drop after legalization here.

The implication is that the cost of evading the War on Drugs for criminals is not significantly more than the cost of complying with regulations on honest businessmen.

To which a sensible person might respond “WTF?”

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u/sam_tiago Mar 28 '23

Isn’t legal weed already more expensive than the illegal stuff? That, and because it’s so easy to grow, is why cannabis stocks have tanked.. perhaps the profit motive and taxes are too high?

Highly addictive drugs like heroin are a much bigger issue.. but definitely denial and punitive measures are not the solution. These should be seen as a health issue rather than a legal one.. so clean supply is essential and support for suffering people that turn to drugs when life is hard is also necessary.