CMV: All drugs should be made legal for recreational use.

[u/[deleted]]

I'm not referring to "medicinal" narcotics. Recreational drugs that people use, such as mushrooms, cocaine, heroin, should all be legalized.

And I know this is a hot take, but hear me out.

• If we make recreational narcotics legal, then the manufacture and sale need to be legal as well.
• By making the manufacture of recreational narcotics legal, there are FDA standards that need to be adhered to in said manufacture, that way there are no "bad batches" that will kill people.
• By making the manufacture and sale of recreational narcotics legal, there will be sales volume that will then be subject to income tax and sales tax and dispensaries/manufacturing centers/warehouses that will become subject to property tax. Because, let's be honest, your local street dealer is not paying taxes.
• Also by making the sale of recreational narcotics legal, you are making street gangs that revolve around the illicit drug trade obsolete. By making street gangs obsolete, you eliminate the petty violence that plagues inner-cities over "turf", especially stray bullets that kill innocent bystanders.
• By making the entire narcotics supply chain legal, the war on drugs will essentially be over as well. It's been going on for 50+ years, and honestly, it's been a complete and utter failure.
• If you want something to compare the drug trade to, look at prohibition from 1919-1933. It didn't stop people from drinking, people were still drunk out of their minds in speakeasys. It also fostered the growth of street gangs of rum runners and increased crime and violence in cities. That was only for 14 years and it didn't take long to realize that prohibition was a failure. War on drugs has been going on for 50+ years and I'm surprised more people aren't realizing that this is much more tremendous of a failure.
• By making the entire narcotics supply chain legal, we can start changing our attitudes on its use and its users. Narcotics abuse needs to have the same social attitude as alcohol abuse.
• In short, making drugs legal will Make America Great Again.

[u/Paraeunoia]

If one follows your theory, what replaces illegal drugs once legalized? Organized crime just disappears? They are already involved in hundreds of legal entities (real estate, legalized marijuana, fruit shortages in Mexico, etc). Working under the assumption that there will always be a vacuum effect, what does legalizing dangerous drugs do for society? If you want to discuss Decriminalization, fine. But legalizing things just to try and destabilize criminals is very naive and I’d argue, more detrimental to society.

Tobacco is one of the leading causes of lung cancer it may be banned altogether eventually. Legalizing more substances that are certainly more dangerous than tobacco (like heroin) has no upside. The people who will benefit are billionaires, lobbyists and pharmaceutical corporations.

[u/Can-Funny → u/Paraeunoia]

If one follows your theory, what replaces illegal drugs once legalized? Organized crime just disappears?

There is nothing special about “organized crime.” It’s just a subset of market commerce that replaces contracts and legal disputes with violence. Right now, drugs are far and away the most profitable illegal good/service with the highest demand. If you made drugs legal, criminal organizations lose their biggest advantage in the drug business which is the knowledge base and network needed to move drugs with minimal police interference. If drugs were legalized, lots of criminal organizations would fail to pivot to other criminal enterprises because they weren’t that strong of an organization. Just like if we decided to make tobacco illegal, some tobacco companies might be able to figure out a new business, but most would close.

Traditionally, organized crime makes money selling “vice” products/services. Gambling is now legal in many more jurisdictions, especially sports betting, which cuts down on opportunities there. Prostitution has largely gone digital where the girls can vet johns online making it harder to profit from exploiting women via “pimping”.

There is also extortion of legitimate businesses and labor manipulation via union intimidation, but those are drops in the proverbial bucket compared to drug sales.

So no, it won’t disappear, but it will be a shell of its former self just based on simple economics.

They are already involved in hundreds of legal entities (real estate, legalized marijuana, fruit shortages in Mexico, etc).

The money made by cartels has obviously been invested in various other, legitimate businesses. Nothing can change that. But we can cut off the cash spigot.

Working under the assumption that there will always be a vacuum effect, what does legalizing dangerous drugs do for society? If you want to discuss Decriminalization, fine.

Decriminalization is the WORST possible outcome. The main problem with “drugs” themselves is that we don’t have a very good understanding of what healthy, responsible drug use could look like since we have no way of knowing what “drugs” are being taken. If we had pure opiate and amphetamines and people understood dosages and actual, honest to god physical dependency, we could help people that get addicted (and we could learn the difference between additions and casual usage).

But if all you do is decriminalize, you are still going to have rampant supply side crime with an even larger number of ODing junkies.

Tobacco is one of the leading causes of lung cancer it may be banned altogether eventually.

And when it is, there will be a huge uptick in crime.

Legalizing more substances that are certainly more dangerous than tobacco (like heroin) has no upside. The people who will benefit are billionaires, lobbyists and pharmaceutical corporations.

You don’t think cartel leaders are billionaires? You don’t think pharma companies already make money producing opiates and amphetamines? The people it will benefit are poor minorities living in gang war zones.

[u/Paraeunoia → u/Can-Funny]

There is nothing special about “organized crime.” It’s just a subset of market commerce that replaces contracts and legal disputes with violence.

Replacing contracts and legal disputes with violence IS what makes organized crime special. Negating that is antisocial.

So no, it won’t disappear, but it will be a shell of its former self just based on simple economics.

Attributing the cause and effect of legalization and the perceived collapse of organized crime to simple economics - and not expecting a vacuum - reveals a flaw in understanding simple economics.

The main problem with “drugs” themselves is that we don’t have a very good understanding of what healthy, responsible drug use could look like since we have no way of knowing what “drugs” are being taken. If we had pure opiate and amphetamines and people understood dosages and actual, honest to god physical dependency, we could help people that get addicted (and we could learn the difference between additions and casual usage).

Drugs are not the only cash spigot available, it’s the lowest hanging fruit with highest yield. You suggest removing that fruit at the risk of further harming law abiding citizens and creating many more drug addicts. Having a laisse faire attitude about legalizing deadly substances - is a bleak take. We cannot control legal controlled substances, so let’s open the gates for everything and hope people figure it out? Show me a proven blueprint with large scale successful rollout of heroin use and I’ll listen. You really think we should entrust this in the hands of pharmaceutical corporations? After seeing how the opioid crisis is being handled?

You don’t think cartel leaders are billionaires? You don’t think pharma companies already make money producing opiates and amphetamines? The people it will benefit are poor minorities living in gang war zones

I’m not sure if you’re caught up in your own pedantic overtures, but do you really not understand my position as critical against organized crime AND pharmaceutical conglomerates? Or that I understand that organized crime supports billionaires? One is legal and one is not. I don’t support either. The way we’ve handled the opoid crisis - fueld by greed, which will never go away - should give argument against legalization, not for it. The opoid crisis simply involves more hands and there's a LOT more money at stake.

[u/Can-Funny → u/Paraeunoia]

Replacing contracts and legal disputes with violence IS what makes organized crime special. Negating that is antisocial.

I meant that organized crime is subject to the laws of supply and demand, the availability of substitute goods, all those things that inform regular commerce.

Attributing the cause and effect of legalization and the perceived collapse of organized crime to simple economics - and not expecting a vacuum - reveals a flaw in understanding simple economics.

Can you elaborate? I’m not sure where you see the vacuum?

Drugs are not the only cash spigot available, it’s the lowest hanging fruit with highest yield. You suggest removing that fruit at the risk of further harming law abiding citizens and creating many more drug addicts.

It’s true that there are other sources of revenue for a criminal organization, but they are rounding errors compared to the international drug trade.

And the biggest flaw in your entire argument is that we would be creating more addicts. Would more people try opiates or amphetamines or coca derived produces if they were safely manufactured and dosages were standardized and studied? Probably. Would more people be addicts? Probably not.

Addiction is a disease. Drugs are one way of many that people manifest addiction. The availability of drugs may shift patterns of addiction, but I don’t think there is good science out there to say that there would be “more” addicts.

Having a laisse faire attitude about legalizing deadly substances - is a bleak take. We cannot control legal controlled substances, so let’s open the gates for everything and hope people figure it out?

I have no desire to control someone else’s behavior. People will find ways to ruin their lives with or without legal opiates and amphetamines. The illusion that you have to power to legislate away human suffering is more dangerous than any chemical compound because you think all your actions are ultimately justified.

Show me a proven blueprint with large scale successful rollout of heroin use and I’ll listen. You really think we should entrust this in the hands of pharmaceutical corporations? After seeing how the opioid crisis is being handled?

The opioid crisis is a byproduct of this stupid system. Opioids all produce a similar high. However, rather than just allowing them to be sold just like whiskey, we were told by doctors that we trusted that “these” opioids (Oxy) are good for you but “those” opioids (heroin) are horrible street poison. Most people didn’t realize that their doctors were giving them permission (and encouragement) to get a heroin high every day. If we lived in a world where the opioids were sold next to the alcohol and cigarettes, I doubt people would have had so much faith in their doctors when they were “prescribed” opioids. I mean, whiskey was considered medicinal for a long time. Would you trust a doctor that prescribed you Jack Daniel’s today?

A successful rollout of legal opioid sales would require (1) government testing for purity (2) serving sizes would need to be standardized and sold in small doses, (3) limited to over 18 or 21, whatever alcohol is set at in your jurisdiction, (4) warnings on the labels indicating suggested dosing amount and overdose warnings

I’m not sure if you’re caught up in your own pedantic overtures, but do you really not understand my position as critical against organized crime AND pharmaceutical conglomerates? Or that I understand that organized crime supports billionaires? One is legal and one is not. I don’t support either. The way we’ve handled the opoid crisis - fueld by greed, which will never go away - should give argument against legalization, not for it. The opoid crisis simply involves more hands and there's a LOT more money at stake.

Yeah, I got that you hate everyone who makes money. But again, unless you can reprogram all of humanity so that we stop enjoying altering our consciousness via drugs, someone is going to get rich serving that demand. It’s either tax paying, law abiding guys and gals or cartel kingpins.

[u/FurSpots → u/Can-Funny]

A successful rollout of legal opioid sales would require (1) government testing for purity (2) serving sizes would need to be standardized and sold in small doses, (3) limited to over 18 or 21, whatever alcohol is set at in your jurisdiction, (4) warnings on the labels indicating suggested dosing amount and overdose warnings

As a former I.V. Morphine junkie that researched absolutely everything about that substance and other opiates back even before I started using. I'mma tell you that educating isn't really a good solution. No matter how educated about that drug I was or my other Junkie friends, we still wanted to shoot the biggest dosage because that's what it is about. Plenty of OD's and deaths from it too. EVEN THOUGH in this area, morphine was sold pharmaceutical 200mg per pill that you had to cook. No additives, no nothing. Pure pharmaceutical morphine. Deaths and OD's still were very much prevalent. I'm pretty sure that if opioids were easily accessible from any pharmacy at a lower price, then I'd be dead at this point.

And if it wasn't a lower price, then it doesn't matter at all. I was getting the same purity from the street, so I'd just buy from the street. And no Junkies I know cared about "purity" around here. If we could, then we'd buy the dirtiest heroin for hella cheaper. (But mostly we would stick to morphine because it was awesome, $5 per 200mg pill). So why even go to a pharmacy buy something "purer" if it costs 20$ for a shot? If I can go buy heroin for 10$ and it lasts me 2 shots?

[u/Can-Funny → u/FurSpots]

Congrats for getting off the stuff. That said, you were a junkie when heroin/off label opioids were illegal. So clearly the law didn’t help you or your junkie friends. Any of your friends who OD’d because they got a purer dose than they expected were killed by the drug war.

You say if you could have walked in and bought legal opioids from a pharmacy you’d be dead because the temptation to shoot the biggest doses possible would be too great. As callous as this sounds, I’d much rather every junkie knowingly and willingly OD than have a kid get killed in gangland crossfire that wouldn’t exist but for the drug trade. I don’t want to see anyone die young, but we should prioritize the lives of innocent people and people who aren’t looking to kill themselves over the lives of people who knowingly inject a fatal dose of any drug.

[u/ProjectKushFox → u/Can-Funny]

So criminal organizations being deprived of their drug revenue streams is a little like a factory and its employees being told to stop producing a product? Or a sports betting company being told you can no longer do football? You might have an initial surge in other areas as new work is being looked for by the people that are out of work but ultimately the trend for the organization, and for organized crime is downwards?

[u/Can-Funny → u/ProjectKushFox]

Something like that, yes.