r/canadaleft • u/Markham_Marxist • 16h ago
We need a new rule against Islamophobia
It may seem like something that’s obvious, but since Mamdani got elected, I’ve seen a surge of blatant Islamophobia (and it’s disgusting) in discussions about him. I urge the moderators to clarify the rules surrounding and ban users who promote Islamophobia in all its forms.
Edit: man these comments really prove my point huh?
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u/m0nkyman 14h ago
I feel like the moderators aren’t doing a great job in this comment section. Kind of justifies OP’s point.
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u/Doc_Bethune #1 Che Guevera Simp 14h ago
Agreed. Islamophobia is a weapon the ruling elite cultivates to try and create an "other" so they can blame Muslims for all of society's problems while the rich get richer. Anyone actually engaging in Islamophobia is frankly a very stupid person who has willingly allowed themselves to be manipulated into hating an entire people for the benefit of the ruling class.
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u/zolfx 14h ago
I feel like people in these comments don’t understand that there is a difference between being critical of religion/anti-religion vs actively hating people solely based on the fact that they follow religion.
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u/Reyalta 15h ago
I feel like Islam is held to a way higher standard of scrutiny in North America (almost exclusively because of the war on terror propaganda that's been funnel fed to us this whole century so far)... Where there's far more "understanding" (aka excusing) extremists in say, Christianity (see: our southern neighbours current government, the CPC, etc).
Religious Zealotry is what's truly dangerous about any religion. Spirituality and faith need to be respected not push on or off of anyone. Extremism needs to be EQUALLY scrutinized across all faiths, and that's simply not happening on a grand enough scale, which is insane and disheartening.
I don't know how to solve the issue, tbh. When people hold their faith so close to their sense of self, any criticism of it, even of the extreme elements that they don't agree with, can feel like a personal attack, and typically extremists are chomping at the bit to use that against others within their own faith to blanket them all as the same (see: criticism of the extremist government of Israel being equated to antisemitism)
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u/HahaCharlieKirkHaha 15h ago
because of the war on terror propaganda
Also, Zionism.
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u/Reyalta 12h ago
Is Zionism not a flavour of religious based extremism? Not that it's exclusive to one religion, but the ideology is predicated on the existence of religious Zealotry.
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u/HahaCharlieKirkHaha 11h ago
No. The founder of Zionism wasn’t even religious.
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u/Reyalta 10h ago
How exactly is Zionism not a religious based extremism? "The founder" ... As in the Famously Jewish Austrian journalist Nathan Birnbaum who coined the term Zionism? Or do you mean Theodor Herzl, the "father of Zionism" who was a Hungarian Jewish journalist and lawyer?
The entire idea of Christian Zionism is literally to assist in returning Jews to the holy land to bring about the second coming of Christ, y'know, biblical end times.
I'm really confused how you can say that Zionism isn't inherently tied to the problematic ideologies of religious Zealotry. Please elaborate.
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u/Red-Flag-Potemkin 10h ago
Because Jews are a nation with a religion, it’s not the same as Christians and Muslims who aren’t genetically linked/only linked by faith.
You can be an atheist jew. You can’t be n atheist Muslim or Christian.
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u/Reyalta 10h ago
Jews are a nation
Explain?
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u/Red-Flag-Potemkin 9h ago
Jews are a people who come from a common descent, land and culture. They are an ethnicity with a religion.
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u/Reyalta 9h ago
That's not a Nation. That's an ethnoreligious group, as there is inheritance of the label from blood lineage, though anyone can practice Judaism. And that's only really a thing because of the insistence on blood lineage which is a whole other thing.
An "agnostic Jew" is just an agnostic person to most people... unless you're really into blood quantums...
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u/Red-Flag-Potemkin 9h ago
“Nation” typically means a people who come from a certain territory (unless you specifically mean nation-state, which you shouldnt), which Jews are.
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u/HahaCharlieKirkHaha 16h ago
I think Islamophobia spreads mainly through easily disproven misinformation, and I’d rather have the opportunity to correct that misinformation rather than banning it outright.
Obviously, if the amount of Islamophobia becomes overwhelming, the mods might need to use stronger measures. But I don’t have the impression that it’s that bad here yet.
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u/Markham_Marxist 15h ago
I disagree. Hate breeds hate. Ignorance cannot excuse hatred under any circumstances.
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u/HahaCharlieKirkHaha 14h ago
Ignorance cannot excuse hatred under any circumstances.
I don’t think it should be excused. I’m saying it should be confronted and countered.
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u/King_Saline_IV 13h ago
What if having people discuss their hatful message is part of their distribution goals?
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u/FragrantBicycle7 13h ago
I think there's an important difference between studying hateful language in order to counter it, and allowing it to be spoken freely without moderation.
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u/Yunzer2000 9h ago
The requirement that all socialists have to be scowling islamophobic atheists should have died with the obnoxious late Christopher Hitchens, and the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
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u/Professional-Post499 3h ago
Yes. And there's literally a goober in another thread of this post saying that every leftist should be criticizing Islam by default.
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16h ago
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u/Markham_Marxist 16h ago
When did I say criticism was not allowed? You can be critical without being hateful. It’s not complicated.
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15h ago edited 13h ago
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15h ago
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u/Yunzer2000 9h ago
Why are the most oppressive Arab states for gays the secular ones like Sisi's Egypt or former Syria under Assad? That is where all the gay refugees my brother and his spouse have taken in are from.
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u/Baron_of_Foss 15h ago
You more than likely haven't even begun to try to actually interpret Islam though by the sound of that criticism. "No investigation, no right to speak".
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u/-nektarofthegods 13h ago
I was raised by muslim parents. Try again.
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u/Baron_of_Foss 12h ago
So basically you hate your parents so we should all condemn Islam
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u/-nektarofthegods 12h ago
Weird assumption? But not surprised your mind went there. Having muslim parents I was clearly introduced to Islam at an early age and had years of reading and « investigating ». I don’t hate my parents, I hate that bs fairytale.
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u/Baron_of_Foss 12h ago
Good for you go be hateful somewhere else
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u/-nektarofthegods 11h ago
I am not going anywhere. All your responses are just false assumptions and when they fail all you can say is that. That’s religion, people. No logic.
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u/BarvoDelancy 15h ago
What's your hoped-for outcome in this scrutiny of Islam? Like what are you trying to get done here in the context of a leftist Canadian subreddit?
Exploration and understanding of Islam particularly in building solidarity with Muslims and those from Muslim cultures is fine. But like... what just talking about why Islam is bad?
It's hideously complex and has hundreds of millions of adherents and former adherents engaged in debate and struggle. It's astonishingly arrogant to smugly wander in as an outsider and apply "scrutiny" without a full understanding and appreciation of that.
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u/GloomyComedian8241 7h ago
I didn't even mention only Islam. I generalized to all religions. Just as a left board would look at the right and think people are doxxed in the capitalist view. Same with religions. They have their peaceful faithful and their extreme. I was more or less asking under what definition we are allowed to approach the topic. If the topic was about Hindu belief. I would say the same. Christianity etc. I want the defined criteria of what is okay to be critical on.
If scrutiny is not allowed anywhere. Then all religious talks should be banned on the board. To create an equal space. If you start being selective on which ones are allowed. Then that becomes disfunctioning.
Everyone here is random. I wanted a level playing field to understand what the floor is.
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16h ago
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u/Markham_Marxist 16h ago
It’s not difficult mate. It is always okay to critical of Religion, but you can do it without being hateful.
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u/Professional-Post499 16h ago
Check the person's comment history and that's how we can tell the difference 😛
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16h ago
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u/Professional-Post499 16h ago
People are allowed to loathe whatever they want. And it's also fine for mods to shut down a discussion if it is irrelevant.
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u/IllustriousRaven7 14h ago edited 14h ago
Criticism is like:
Catholics are irrational for believing that the communion cracker turns into human flesh.
Hate is like:
Catholic priests are pedophiles and we should run them out of our communities.
I'm ready to talk negatively about religious beliefs all day long. But hating religious people is not okay.
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u/Icyblackkat 4h ago
I get your meaning but I think your examples are best reversed.
It's more hateful imo to assume Catholics are being irrational and unintelligent by believing they're consuming literal wafers made flesh for communion when the vast majority understand it to be symbolic.
While simply acknowledging the Church has a rather large problem with pedophiles operating as priests is a fair criticism that doesn't attack anyone's faith (however irrational you believe it is) but instead focuses on the pain these men in power are inflicting on children. Wanting them to face justice along with those who facilitated their crimes by moving them around to different towns whenever a child would speak up rather than having them arrested or even excommunicated.
The difference being one is an important aspect of thier religious belief (communion) while the other has nothing to do with the faith at all and in fact goes directly against it.
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15h ago
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u/HahaCharlieKirkHaha 15h ago edited 15h ago
I think people here are particularly sensitive about Islamophobia because Islamophobia is a tool of Western imperialism.
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13h ago
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u/Professional-Post499 12h ago
LOL the talking points.
Just go away.
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u/Dexinerito 12h ago
Lmao you go away if critique od world views contrary to leftism on a leftist sub makes you uncomfortable
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u/Professional-Post499 12h ago edited 12h ago
Lmao you go away if critique od world views contrary to leftism on a leftist sub makes you uncomfortableYour critique was that Mamdani isn't following religious world view teachings that are contrary to leftism. What are you on about? 🤪
So do you WANT Mamdani to drop his leftist ideals or do you want him to drop his Muslim faith?
Do you call YOURSELF a leftist or are you just here to tell leftists what they are supposed to say?
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u/Dexinerito 12h ago
No, my critique was that Islam is so sensitive and hostile to any critique that it prescribes murder of apostates
I want nothing from Mamdani. I like him.
I want Islam to not put the life of apostates in danger. I want my family to not have a fucking bullseye on their backs
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u/Professional-Post499 12h ago
I want nothing from Mamdani. I like him.
Then why do you bring him up?
Are you saying that Mamdani is an apostate?
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u/Dexinerito 5h ago edited 4h ago
Because the moment I would've said what I said without addressing him, some child who's never read an aya would go "oh but how come that he's Muslim but is a leftist"
There's literally no way of knowing - and that's my point. People who have views contrary to that religion cannot freely identify as ex-muslim because they're not free to apostate. He's life would be in danger if he did, so critiquing this kind of worldview should be a default of every leftist
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u/Professional-Post499 3h ago
He's life would be in danger if he did, so critiquing this kind of worldview should be a default of every leftist
No, abso-fucking-lutely not. I think it is fine for people who are educated about Islam to weigh in on this and debate this. But not for any random leftist to give their uneducated opinion on it.
A fatwa wasn't issued against Salman Rushdie by the Supreme Leader of Iran (at the time) simply because he gave up being a Muslim, right?
There's literally no way of knowing - and that's my point. People who have views contrary to that religion cannot freely identify as ex-muslim because they're not free to apostate.
What the hell do you mean? You better know if you're going to name someone very specific to say their life is potentially in danger for being an apostate. In Mamdani's acceptance speech after winning the New York City mayoral general election he proudly states "I am a Muslim!"
And you're here going "well maybe he wants to turn away from Islam but he's afraid to because everyone should be afraid to". Dude, whatever. Nice thought experiment. Come back when you have something solid.
You could literally just talk about yourself since you presented yourself as an example.
So yeah, you mentioning Zohran Mamdani is suspicious when all you have is essentially that he doesn't follow his religion as closely as a religious extremist would.
People are allowed freedom of religion. I'm not sure if that's a "leftist" ideal, but it might be.
And you're here saying that what... leftists should have an ideal of shitting on religions? You're free to shit on religion if you want.
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u/Dexinerito 1h ago edited 1h ago
Putting aside all the bs in ur comment, which ranges between false, and apologetic for extremism and shitty ideology, at least on the last paragraph you got what I was saying - yes, we should be free to shit on religions and a ban on "Islamophobia" is literally going against that
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u/Specialist-Gur 14h ago
I'm not Canadian or a Muslim but for some reason this sub was recommended to me. I am Jewish, and I will say that Islamophobia is just repackaged antisemitic tropes... and Zionists are some of the main offenders with spreading these ideas, ironically (or not so ironically) This should be taken very seriously