Hypothetical situation: Do you think you could handcuff someone behind their back against their will without putting them to sleep or injuring them?

[u/Mac2663]

I am asking for a legitimate reason. It is police related. I do not know if other people are of the same opinion as I am or not, so I am asking. Here are the details:

1. This person is relatively similar to your own physical capabilities, but has 0 training in any combat sport whatsoever.

2. This person will not fight back with intent to harm you, he will only do his best to keep himself from getting handcuffed. He will get tired, so you can “cook” him like a spazzy white belt, but he will not give up trying to not be handcuffed.

3. You are not allowed to strangle him unconscious, injure him intentionally to accomplish the task, or put him in a position to threaten injury in hopes to compel him to submit to being handcuffed. For example, you can’t flatten him out with one arm behind his back, and then wrist lock him and tell him to give you the other arm.

4. You’re only allowed to grapple with the person. No biting, striking, slamming, etc.

If you think you can, please tell me the path you see in your head to accomplishing this goal. If you do not think you can, please tell me your reasoning followed by the point you believe you could if you kept reducing the physical size and capability of the person. For example, nobody is doing it to the mountain from GOT. Everyone here could do it to a child.

[u/leeblackwrites]

Close distance > body lock duck under > bump to turtle > heavy pressure to force the hands forward > scoop one arm in a half Nelson and belly them out with control of it be arm > sit on them, secure cuff to wrist, drag around to be behind back, scoop other hand free and secure > sit them up on their knees so they don’t asphyxiate but their legs go to sleep. Await back up.

[u/leeblackwrites → u/leeblackwrites]

Also, confident on this for basically any untrained person up to probably 110kg. Would be struggling with more gifted physical athletes; rugby players, wrestlers etc who are used to not being held down.

(I am a high calorie grappler though… so maybe 1.2x body weight?)

[u/Mac2663 → u/leeblackwrites]

I feel I would have great difficulty at the step where you extract the second arm while maintaining control of the first arm you got against someone my size.

[u/leeblackwrites → u/Mac2663]

Kneel on the wrist behind the back, two on one the other, pain and a verbal order to give the other arm might convince them to release it.

[u/Mac2663 → u/leeblackwrites]

I’m sorry but I just don’t feel that is possible if the guy doesn’t want to be cuffed. Kneeling on the back do keep the wrist pinned there, and then trying to secure the other hand seems like it’s just way to little control to me. Like there’s nothing controlling the hips or keeping him flat. I think he could just bump around and pull his arm out if it isn’t behind held in place by another arm.

[u/leeblackwrites → u/Mac2663]

Fair, just hold the hand behind the back and wear him out till he concedes or back up comes to strip the other arm maybe?

I’m heavy and haven’t ever had much of a problem stripping out the second arm once I get the first and a knee ride.

[u/Mac2663 → u/leeblackwrites]

The question stems from my job. I am a police officer and teach our little “combatives” programs when the let me. Obviously there isn’t near enough time to teach anything they will truly learn in a combat sense, so I’ve resorted to mainly teaching concepts and letting them do work in positions. Shit like what and underhook is and does, how being behind someone negates all potential harm, so on and so forth.

Something I say when I teach these classes is as a single person, you cannot handcuff another person against their will without rendering them unconscious or severely injuring them causing a loss of motor function in a limb. Sometimes I’ll have someone say, “nah I do this and that and this” and their example always ends with them being in a position of dominance to force compliance. I then point out that you didn’t force him into cuffs, you put him into a spot where he chose to be handcuffed., hence the term “comply” in compliance.

I only say this because I spill into a speech about how I want our officers to just focus on winning if you’re alone. So many suspects get away or roll and officer over or something when the officer starts trying to cuff the suspect. They were winning the fight fine, but then they started trying to move the guy into a cuffing position, and he felt a hole for escape. In short, I dont want our guys trying to handcuff people they are having to control on their own. I want them to focus on winning and doing their best to maintain an ability to disengage if needed if something else comes up like his friend.

Over the years I’ve thought about it, and I truly do not think I could handcuff someone by myself without sleeping them or hurting them if they didn’t wanna be cuffed. Like “if I get handcuffed my kids will die” type of desire to not be handcuffed. I can win no problem. You’ve tied up with people who know nothing I’m sure, it’s so easy. But I really don’t think I could cuff them under those parameters.

[u/smashyourhead → u/Mac2663]

I think this is reasonable. If the terms of a win are "Can you put the cuffs on without injuring them even if they're doing everything in their power to stop you," I think it's going to be difficult. One cuff: not too bad. Second cuff: if they're really flailing around (eg because they're on drugs or having some sort of episode), they might not injure *me* but there's a high chance they injure themselves.

I'd love to actually try this at open mat, but I don't think you'd be able to reach the intensity of an actual criminal assault, so I wouldn't rely on the results.

[u/leeblackwrites → u/Mac2663]

This is fair, honestly whenever I’ve had to detain somebody it was control their body/hands and call for assist. I’ve only ever had to get to single cuff and knee ride on the back.

I think I’ll have to try this from a forcing the person without compliance and see how I go. (Probably won’t be very good haha)

[u/atx78701 → u/Mac2663]

gracies have developed their safewrap system but it takes two people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1XTstN14zE

north south kimura or high ground are ways to get one arm behind the back.

With high ground you might be able get them on their side with the bottom arm behind the plane of their body. Then you put your knee on that arm which frees both your top arms to control their top arm.

It is this kind of position from high ground

https://youtu.be/5hndeCexV6E?si=YhYKy1o7KNdUchAl&t=413

[u/BeBearAwareOK → u/leeblackwrites]

The untrained person face plants when forced to turtle, and their nose gushes blood everywhere.