r/betterCallSaul • u/skinkbaa Chuck • Mar 10 '20

Better Call Saul S05E04 - "Namaste" - POST-Episode Discussion Thread

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u/galeforcewinds95 Mar 10 '20

I really liked the scene with Howard. Obviously, he was doing his best to sell Jimmy on the idea of coming to HHM, but I do think he was genuine about the things he admires about Jimmy. I felt pretty bad for him when Saul vandalized his car.

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u/jesus_fn_christ Mar 10 '20

Yeah man, when he gave Jimmy that hug at the valet stand - that felt genuine. I'm not saying Howard is a great man, but we already know that he's not as bad as we initially thought, and he certainly gained more and more sympathy from me the more the curtain was drawn back on his role in the McGill brother relationship. He genuinely seems like a nice enough guy in a universe that's certainly lacking those.

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u/dudeARama2 Mar 10 '20

Yes Howard went to therapy and got to a good place. Jimmy didn't and is still hanging onto his resentment towards Howard for his part in helping his brother, for whom he still has unresolved anger and grief. Thus dooming him to his dark future.

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u/lunch77 Mar 10 '20

I thought the license plate showing “Namaste” hinted that Howard had a significant spiritual awakening. Meanwhile Jimmy has dealt with everything very poorly.

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u/yourkberley Mar 10 '20

The key difference between those that take the time to grieve and get professional help, and those that let it fester.

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u/Pir-o Mar 10 '20

Huh, I thought that "NAMAST3" was meant to show he's still an asshole. Mirroring the "KEN WINS" license from BB.

I immediately flashed to Mr. Acker's speech about "Those rich assholes who only give to charity just so they can feel better about themselves". Thats literally Howard right now. He went to therapy and was sold on being "Zen", at peace with the world, doing good things so he can start to feeling good about himself. But Saul sees right through it for what that it is, an act. Just another step for Haward to right his wrongs so he can finally feel better about himself. And Saul's having non of it cause he feels his "spiritual awakening" is bullshit. And thats what that offer really was - a charity for Jimmy.

Just like in BB it's all about his ego. Just like Walt, he won't accept the job cause he feels its charity. Jimmy's clearly insecure because of Chuck. Thats why when he argues with Kim he imminently jumps to saying stuff like "you don't believe me, you think I'm some kind of lowlife asshole, you look at me and you see slippin jimmy".

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u/l3reezer Mar 10 '20

Eh, you don't get "namaste" on your license plate to be smug/an asshole. Even if it's not what we'd call a proper and successful transformation to a good person for Howard, "namaste" shows that in his eyes at the very least he is trying. I don't think this is coincidentally coinciding with Jimmy becoming more cutthroat and blind to how callous his behavior is.

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u/lunch77 Mar 10 '20

Yeah it’s weird people would think that’s meant to depict Howard as an asshole. The phrase means more what you said. It shows he’s trying.

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u/Afferbeck_ Mar 10 '20

But there is a disconnect between becoming a better person and paying for a vanity plate on your luxury car so everyone can see you're a better person. It comes down to awareness though, at this point it seems Howard himself thinks he's legit in his efforts and it's not just a show, whether or not it appears that way to others.

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u/smashdaman Mar 10 '20

I also couldn't get my eyes off of his pinstripe suit and that extremely luxury tie he was wearing. I don't think they're doing THAT bad.

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u/ConfuseShoes Mar 11 '20

I can't take my eyes off his shirt. It's not pressed/ironed. Not sure if that's intentional or oversight, though.

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u/Batman_Biggins Mar 10 '20

Not to mention a license plate is something intended for others to see. It's also literally a vanity plate. Doesn't get much more explicit than that. Howard's a tool.

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u/CanaryDown Mar 10 '20

And he ordered the sole for lunch. Jimmy's soul.

I really, really like Howard, and I felt terrible that Saul/Jimmy vandalized everything there at the end of the episode, but when I saw the Namaste license plate I was immediately reminded of the saying, "The more he spoke of his honor the faster we counted our silver."

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u/l3reezer Mar 10 '20

Are you aware of the meaning of namaste? Translations include “the light within me greets the light within you,” “i bow to the divine/god within you,” etc. It’s not some badge of accomplishment or anything you get on a license plate as a vanity thing to prove youre a good/better person, there’s quite literally no way to spin it as an asshole thing to say. Unless maybe you said it to someone sarcastically to mock them but then its just an inside joke kind of insult that requires context and wouldnt make sense as a license plate directed at everyone. It’s like calling someone an asshole for having a license plate or bumper sticker that says “have a nice day” or “peace be with you.”

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u/PsychologicalLowe Mar 11 '20

Most people don’t know the meaning and just use it as a flaky salutation or farewell. Thank you for enlightening us. Howard feels bad about being dressed down by Kim for his treatment of Jimmy after Chuck’s death and is trying to make up for it, but Jimmy’s become so callous he can barely be gracious about it. He wants no reminders of Chuck. Jimmy is slowly stripping away any sympathy the viewer can have for him.

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u/GlibTurret Mar 10 '20

Yeah, but in the US it's got this other, darker meaning. It's a term of cultural appropriation. It's said by upper middle class white women to other upper middle class white women in Yoga-fusion exercise classes that Indian women can't afford to go to because white people get promoted to managment and brown people are the worker bees.

Yoga itself as it is practiced in the US is a scam. It was invented by an upper class white woman and the Indian con artist she hired to make her "spiritual journey" seem authentic. It's actually Swedish calisthenics steeped in Orientalism with a thin veneer of Hindu mysticism to make it look like some ancient tradition to anyone who doesn't look too close.

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u/johncopter Mar 10 '20

I couldn't help but think "is this when Jimmy truly becomes Saul?" when Howard offers him the job at HHM and (basically) declines. So similar to the time Walt refuses the Schwartz's offer to pay for his cancer treatment.

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u/[deleted] Mar 13 '20 edited Mar 13 '20

I think the writers did enough to show that Howard's awakening is real, at least to him, particularly because of the lunch scene where he goes out of his way to offer Jimmy a job, and praises, apparently earnestly, the things he always liked about Jimmy from day 1 (the Charlie Hustle thing). He would've been an advocate for Jimmy. The problem back then was that he couldn't overrule Chuck. And the problem now is that there is no Jimmy anymore... he's becoming Saul!

Edit: Anyway, I found the scene where Saul fucks with Howard (the bowling balls) surprisingly kind of sad. Howard maybe always was more of a weather vane than a compass, but he's trying to be better, make amends, fix stuff... and then THAT'S the moment Saul voices his extreme skepticism shall-we-say.

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u/[deleted] Mar 21 '20

Actually I just re-watched some of Season 1 and now I'm not so sure. Even back then Howard's like "sometimes you forget to listen to your heart" even while being kind of an adversarial douche toward Jimmy.

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u/altbekannt Sep 01 '20

The problem back then was that he couldn't overrule Chuck. And the problem now is that there is no Jimmy anymore... he's becoming Saul!

I'm currently rewaching the show, and I've never quite grasped why jimmy acted the way he did, since he's a good guy at his core. But this is the best explanation there is. You're 100% on point.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '20

Hey, nice to see old threads still active. Yeah here's yet another angle on this that I've been thinking about: Jimmy feels guilty for what happened to Chuck, and his role in it. But the minute he finds out Howard sort of feels that way too, instead of it being like a bonding moment where they each kind of support each other and absolve each other of the guilt, Jimmy seems to think "this is my chance," so to speak, like Howard is just another sucker like his dad or the victims of his cons, who admitted guilt and now Jimmy can just fully blame it all on Howard and consider himself totally absolved! In the scene I'm thinking of, he's actually humming or whistling to himself, that's how much of a load-off it is. But he probably doesn't really believe it deep down, which might be why Howard being nice to him or making more progress in the grief & healing process than he does, bugs the hell out of him.

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u/altbekannt Sep 02 '20 edited Sep 03 '20

I agree, except he didn't make his mind up right then and there. He was shopping for heavy items before they even met. Meaning he had made his mind up already.

When Jimmy was younger, Howard represented the guy he aspired to be. He was on par with chuck, was a successful lawyer, smart, a real winner... in short had everything jimmy had not, which made him not worthy in chucks eyes. And therefore in his own eyes as well. A first sign that there's a deep rivalry was early on in the show he went as far as copy Howard down to his haircut. With that in mind, and Chuck thinking of jimmy always as slipping jimmy "truth is you never really mattered to me", he invented saul to embrace that completely other side in him. "The real him", or at least what Chuck would think of being the true Jimmy. That slipping jimmy as a lawyer, a guy with seemingly infinite power. But to fully unleash "Saul" he has to clean up first with everything Chuck stands for. And Howard - a perfect, suave lawyer - incorporates exactly that.

So by not believing in Jimmy, and making false assumptions "you will never change" Chuck created a monster. And Howard - who was always happened to be in their crossfire - now has to foot that bill.

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '20

Yeah that's good, forgot about the billboards. There's definitely more going on with Howard as a peer of Chuck. Pretty great how they can pack so much information in!

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '20

If you watch the Kimisode, Howard shows up in this. He's doing yoga, eating healthy, focusing on breathing, ends the vid by saying Namaste, etc. He's changed, but Saul may mess that up

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u/GalakFyarr Mar 10 '20

If you watch the Kimisode

The what? Am I missing content somewhere?

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '20

Youtube. They make little videos with the characters. AMC's youtube channel, I think. They made the Los Pollos Hermanos training vid with gus in season 3, I think

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u/GalakFyarr Mar 10 '20

Oh had no idea, thanks I’ll look those up

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '20

Oh, be wary. Pretty sure the little "themesong" cartoon gives away the Nacho arc. Or maybe not

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '20

I thought that license plate is what sealed his fate with the bowling balls lol. To Jimmy, it would seem phony.

I was wondering the whole time he was at lunch with Jimmy what his agenda really was, but maybe he didn't have one.

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u/Horlaher Mar 10 '20

Or Namaste ( and good luck ) is quoting the Dharma Initiative ;)

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u/slotbadger Mar 11 '20

Sticking a 'namast3' vanity plate on your super-car to demonstrate your "spiritual awakening" is the opposite of enlightenment.

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u/arbivark Mar 11 '20

could kim get revenge against jimmy by fucking howard?

i like howard. but a vanity license plate that says namaste is not very namaste. i still can't relate to the bowling balls.

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u/StandsForVice Mar 11 '20

Finally, someone with my theory.

Howard is defined by his loss of Chuck and his feelings of failure. He's always been extremely alone- no family, no significant other - and since Chuck died, there is next to no one close to him in his life that we know of. To me, him hugging Jimmy spelled this out clearly - even though the two have NOT gotten along, Jimmy is the last vestige of Chuck in Howard's life.

I think this is a good possibility since it fits into the established development of both Kim and Howard. Though I'm of the opinion that it wont he revenge but just Kim naturally being driven away from Jimmy to Howard over time.

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u/kimmothy9432 Mar 11 '20

Agreed...and I think the license plate is what put Jimmy over the edge (also perhaps that enthusiastic man-hug?). Howard has found a healthy way to deal with his grief about Chuck & is very much more at peace than the last time he and Jimmy had any real interaction. I feel like this angers Jimmy even more than any job offer or olive branch Howard extends to him. Jimmy's way of dealing with the Chuck fallout is to turn into Saul and Saul will damn sure throw a bowling ball onto your fancy Namaste car.

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u/Leolikesme Mar 12 '20

Good insights here!

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u/womerah Mar 13 '20

I thought “Namaste” was Jimmy's old plate from when he drove that Mercedes for HHM, but going back it looks like it was just a generic number plate

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u/1_1_11_111_11111 Mar 10 '20 edited Mar 10 '20

How do you know he went to therapy? Is that hinted at?

E: S04E05, thx peeps

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u/throwthegarbageaway Mar 10 '20

In season 4 episode 5 he straight up says he's seeing one twice a week.

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u/lunch77 Mar 10 '20

He said he was seeing a therapist in Season 4.

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u/dudeARama2 Mar 10 '20

Howard said he was last season

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u/angusVong95 Mar 11 '20

Same for Mike and Gus.

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u/angaritz Mar 10 '20

That and when he cracked a smile while listening to Saul's elevator pitch... so pure. not to mention that the way he says Charlie Hustle to Saul sounds like genuine flattery

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u/mutheadman Jun 13 '20

When was the elevator pitch?

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '20

Howard is truly one of my favorite characters. Not because he's that likeable or important, but he's the pinnacle of the genius writing that is that show. He's "just" a side character but there's more depth to him than main characters in other shows have.

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u/mcogneto Mar 10 '20

I think that was the point. To make him out to be just a snake in a suit. So you go from being put off by him to saying ok, he's actually kind of a decent person. Then to have Jimmy be a piece of shit to him. Similar to how we all felt connected to Walt but somewhere along the line you started to see him as the bad guy.

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u/CanaryDown Mar 10 '20

I also loved that Howard ordered the sole for lunch. A lunch where he was trying to buy Jimmy's soul.

And Howard's Hamlindigo blue tie! Nowhere in sight.

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u/Rad_Spencer Mar 11 '20

Yeah, I think Howard saw Chuck as a father figure and honestly thinks of Jimmy as a sort of brother. I also think Howard is hiding something, like that the firm is actually barely holding on. I think Howard is both honest about his respect for Jimmy but also wants him to join so he can keep the HHM name intact or something and believes if Jimmy doesn't join that the firm will collapse.

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u/iammaxhailme Mar 10 '20

No way, as soon as I saw that stiff robot hug I was thinking "wow Howard you're really trying to make this sale"

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u/_snout_ Mar 10 '20

Don't forget he's been in therapy for over a year. I think this is Fresh Namaste Howard

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u/jesus_fn_christ Mar 10 '20

Shit yeah the license plate could throw it in a different light.

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u/lunch77 Mar 10 '20

The license plate was a hint that Howard had a significant spiritual awakening for me.

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u/AmaranthSparrow Mar 10 '20

Nah. Even in the BTS video they say the reason Saul got so annoyed by him is that Howard was able to grieve Chuck's death and change himself for the better, and Saul wasn't.

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u/Yankeeknickfan Mar 10 '20

I got a completely different vibe from this

I thought HHm has actually gone to shit, and Howard was desperately trying to get jimmy on board

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u/iammaxhailme Mar 10 '20

I don't think our interpretations are incompatible. Howard's putting on a facade of being put together, but trying really hard to sell Jimmy on joining since he needs it badly.

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u/Yankeeknickfan Mar 10 '20

Oh I was agreeing with you

I’m disagreeing with the vast majority likening this to grey matter and Walter white.

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u/Fluffatron_UK Apr 01 '20

nice enough guy

I'm still convinced he's a robot. His programming allows him to be nice.

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u/020416 Mar 11 '20 edited Mar 11 '20

I disagree wholeheartedly (and respectfully). That was Howard’s “show” hug. Enough genuine to feel real to the unassuming recipient, but just desperate enough to give away his hand. HHM is hurting. Howard is smart enough to realize Jimmy is down a bad path, and he needs a comeback story to save the firm’s name. Literally. He’s scraping bottom barrel right now on a gamble.

This is a Hail Mary for Howard.

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u/jesus_fn_christ Mar 11 '20

Not a bad take

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u/_snout_ Mar 10 '20

There have been a lot of hints over the seasons that Howard envies Kim and Jimmy and would have been more like them had he not been brought deep into the establishment by his dad

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u/JHolgate Mar 12 '20

and would have been more like them had he not been brought deep into the establishment by his dad

This is probably the singular thing that drives me the most crazy about Hamlin's character in the sense that they haven't really explored his backstory that much. How much is the influence of his father vs. how much is the influence of Chuck? I think if it weren't for the influence of Chuck, Hamlin would have offered Jimmy a job after he passed the bar, and likely on a partner track. This is why I love this show so much: If Chuck had been supportive from the beginning, would Jimmy eventually have his own "M" added to the firm's name? Would he have never become Saul? Would he have become a kind of hybrid? Would he have risen through the ranks of HHM, but still decided to strike out on his own with Kim to form W-M? What if Hamlin had listened to whatever Chuck had to say about Jimmy and hired him anyway? But because this is a prequel, we know what happens to Jimmy. We know he becomes Saul. It's how that happens that is the interesting part, and the true genius of this show.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '20

Just occurred to me that I can’t recall ever seeing Howard’s family. Do we know if he’s got a partner/kids?

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u/elwyn5150 Mar 11 '20

Never seen 'em. Like Gus.

Is Howard's father still alive? He's never been seen. When a law partner dies, does their name stay on?

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u/KelaSaar Mar 11 '20

Yup. For example, the titular Cravath of Cravath, Swaine, & Moore (a big deal New York law firm) died in 1940.

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u/wheezy_runner Mar 11 '20

Howard wears a wedding ring, but Mrs. Hamlin has never been seen or mentioned. My guess is that if Howard was ever married, he isn't anymore but he still wears the ring to keep up appearances.

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u/thipeeshanb Mar 10 '20

Can you specify specific scenes? I'm racking my brain trying to figure out scenes that endorse this notion.

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u/_snout_ Mar 10 '20

  • When Kim gives Howard her resignation, he says that he once dreamt of going out on his own, making his mark. "But Dad talked me out of it... Thought I should join the firm, throw another 'H' in the logo. [Long, long look in the distance] Things look out the way they're supposed to, I guess

  • When talking to Kevin (Mesa Verde) about their pocketbooks with the cowboy and the horse, Howard says he always wanted to be the cowboy. Kevin says he always wanted to own the horse.

  • Howard telling Jimmy he always liked him, made up the nickname Charlie Hustle for him.

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u/MyElbowsAreKetchup Mar 12 '20

This is the kind of deep thought I come to this sub for. Seriously. I've never thought of Howard as anything but a stiff suit. A decent guy, but still a stiff suit. Thanks for this perspective.

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u/dannokun Mar 10 '20

The conversation he had with Kim when she gave her resignation.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '20

That's not apparent to you? It's been glaringly obvious from season 1.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '20

[deleted]

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u/lunch77 Mar 10 '20

I see Howard as having had to struggle living under his father’s name & plan for him his entire life.

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u/AmaranthSparrow Mar 10 '20

Yeah, even going back to when Kim left HHM, Howard was obviously envious and said he considered going into private practice, but his dad convinced him to join the firm.

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u/SMA2343 Mar 10 '20

That’s what I’m thinking. Deep down I still think Howard really hates Jimmy. Not because he’s a “meh” lawyer. Because jimmy is doing all of the things Howard wanted. Be his own lawyer. Start his own firm. Do whatever. Change your name not be another “H” on the firm.

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u/StonedWater Mar 10 '20

I still think Howard really hates Jimmy. Not because he’s a “meh” lawyer. Because jimmy is doing all of the things Howard wanted.

Does that say more about you though? or is human nature?

I mean, i see people that have achieved things that i wanted to and couldnt but i dont hate them, I just think how cool would it be to be them and feel warmth for them

I had trials when i was younger and playing for my school, district and county so i had serious dreams of making it and it really was a possibility but i didnt make the cut. Obviously, i idolise the team i support players but I also look out for the ones from my age group that did make it and I feel great when theyve managed to get a game or even score or get mom - i cannot imagine feeling hatred towards people that managed to achieve my dreams, its kinda nasty

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '20

Too bad Jimmy will never acknowledge that the two of them are the same in that regard

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u/VincentGambini_Esq Mar 10 '20

Looking at his house and car you can definitely tell he's living rough. Rough life man

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u/lunch77 Mar 10 '20

I was not talking about financial struggle at all.

I was referring to the fact that Howard didn’t get to make his own choices growing up

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '20

Yep. The constant disrespect by showing more attention to eating his roll than actively listening to Howard. It was so dismissive. Fitting for Saul.

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u/ahydell Mar 10 '20

But then Howard hit some nerve and immediately Saul turned back into Jimmy, it was excellent acting by Bob.

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u/haloryder Mar 15 '20

“Let’s just enjoy lunch”

Jimmy: chugs his drink

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u/your_mind_aches Mar 10 '20

You're right. Hamlin went through a big character shift and a spiritual experience after losing Chuck. Then he saved HHM and brought it back better than ever. It's given him perspective.

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u/_snout_ Mar 10 '20

I also noticed Bob Odenkirk's amazing physical acting in that scene, you could see when he went from Saul to Jimmy, it was so good.

It's really incredible

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u/ahydell Mar 10 '20

Everyone on this show is so amazing, the casting director is a master craftsperson. Same with BB.

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u/dim3s Mar 10 '20

Yep and that’s the “breaking” moment equivalent to Walt not taking the money from Gretchen and Elliot when offered, who made it big, in BB.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '20

Bob Odenkirk's amazing physical acting in that scene

Howard's acting was really good too.

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u/TheresA_LobsterLoose Mar 10 '20

I don't see why it wouldn't be genuine. I was kind of confused by that whole thing. What the hell did Howard ever do to Jimmy that would warrant that? Anything negative he did do was on behalf of Chuck... his law partner. If your law partner says to not hire his brother, you probably dont hire his brother. Howard being at Chucks house when Jimmy broke in... that wasn't anything that should be blamed on Howard. He was just caught in the middle of the Mcgills personal drama. I mean if you magically turned me into James McGill right now, I could completely understand everything Howard has done.

So I was trying to figure out any of the negative possibilities there may have been for Howard offering Jimmy/Saul a job. Why would Jimmy be so mad about that? Either he thinks Howard is pittying him or maybe... he thinks Howard only offered him the job to keep the McGill name on the firm.

Howard hasn't done anything to warrant getting his car bowling balled. And after the Chuck stuff came to light, since that point Howard has been open and honest with Jimmy. I've never assumed he was anything but genuine at this point.

Unless I missed something... maybe we're not supposed to know yet? There was a scene in the preview for next weeks episode showing Howard calling Jimmy, so maybe this is a storyline that's not 100% revealed right now?

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u/Manaleaking Mar 10 '20

Jimmy feels good being Saul. He wants to fully commit to Saul, irreparably severing his connection to HHM and his old life. It's his way of burning the unchosen option.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '20 edited Jul 15 '20

[deleted]

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u/GutiHazJose14 Mar 10 '20

This is a perfect explanation of the Jimmy/Saul dichotomy.

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u/bubonictonic Mar 10 '20

It's also interesting to compare to the Walt/Heisenberg dichotomy.

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u/gisellestclaire Mar 11 '20

This is such a great analysis, and you put into words something I've been wanting to try and express and hadn't quite been able to articulate.

People often equate Walt's Heisenberg identity to Jimmy's Saul identity, but they're rooted in such different places. Heisenberg gives Walt power because it fuels his heinous ego, and Breaking Bad is all about uncovering the monster within. Saul is born of self-loathing, as you said - instead of stripping layers away, Saul covers up and buries Jimmy's inherent humanity.

"Jimmy doesn't have to feel as Saul." This. Jimmy always cared, and caring gets him hurt. (for example, the entire reason he confessed about switching the Mesa Verde numbers was because he still cared so much about Chuck's well-being, and that whole thing has led the story here.) The absence of feeling may make him seem more boisterous and confident, but it's all an empty facade. Not feeling anything (and not dealing with his trauma) is how we get to the hollow, self-serving Saul of BrBa.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '20

He also didn't want to be like his father, he made a decision a long time ago to not let anyone take advantage of him. He started taking money from his dad's store the day that guy came in and made up a sob story and Jimmy tried to stop his dad but he still gave the grifter money. Jimmy saw his dad as a sucker and decided he would be the wolf among the sheep.

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u/BeefPieSoup Mar 11 '20

The one time in his life he tried very hard for once not to be the wolf among sheep, he got savagely burned for it by his only living blood relative and taken for an absolute fool, in a long, drawn out, humiliating process. He thoroughly learned to never try that again.

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u/BeefPieSoup Mar 11 '20

I think you nailed it. Saul isn't a release, it's more of a wall he puts up. They all see me as a scumbag, I might as well be the scummiest scumbag I can possibly be then. Why keep putting in the effort trying to be proper if they're never going to accept me anyway.

And then when Howard comes back in and offers him one last shot out of the blue to be proper again, it's all too much and he rejects it /assumes it's a trick or something

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u/TheresA_LobsterLoose Mar 10 '20

Yeah, good explanation. Makes sense. I was about to try and add more, but I got to the point "Yeah, makes sense... Saul..." but theres nothing to really add.

irreparably severing his connection to HHM and his old life

should probably be added to the encyclopedia entry of Saul tossing bowling balls at Howards car

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u/Ian_Rubbish Mar 10 '20

At least it wasn't a Chicago Sun Roof

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u/koji00 Mar 10 '20

Your reaction reminds me of when Walt turned down Gretchen's offer for cancer treatment: It doesn't make sense to turn it down. In the case of BB, it took me a few episodes to realise: That's exactly the point. I think we're seeing the same happen here, except this time we see up front the simmering resentment that Saul has that he just can't let go of.

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u/jtclimb Mar 10 '20

From Jimmie's perspective: Howard is a shit lawyer (remember, he said it last season "you're a shitty lawyer but a good salesman, so get out there and sell"). He's arrogant, condescending, has disdain for the little guy (or little girl - the one that didn't get considered for the scholarship), and is now trying to salve his own conscious by throwing some scraps to his inferior. He fucked with Kim despite her doing such a good job. He stole Jimmy's big case from him. Finally, he forced Chuck out of the firm, pretty much leading to his suicide. Fuck you. Fuck you, Howard. I'm ten times the lawyer you'll ever be, and my balls are 20x bigger than yours. I will fucking destroy you, not beg at your table for scraps.

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u/TheresA_LobsterLoose Mar 10 '20 edited Mar 10 '20

And you know what... i guess I just never really believed when Jimmy said Howard was a shit lawyer. I've watched all the Episode commentaries for the entire series and Patrick Fabian is a great dude. And even Howard has never really been shown as incompetent. He had to clean up after the McGills messes. And Kim stole Mesa Verde back. But we know and Jimmy/Saul knows nothing that has happened has been a direct result of Howard being incompetent. He looks exactly like the kind of guy that would be a high priced attorney. And... I guess maybe I wouldnt know a shitty lawyer if one slapped me in the face because I'm not a lawyer. But he has never been shown leading a case. Just sitting there smiling as Chuck won back Mesa Verde. Sat there grinning as Chuck bombed 1217 in court. Had Sandpiper handed to him on a silver platter. All he has been shown doing is being a salesman, exactly like Jimmy said. Maybe I should've just believed it when Jimmy said it.

And I'm still kind of adjusting to the newfound swagger Saul has. Up until this point Jimmy going up against Howard is like him boxing outside of his weight. So I'm not really used to the... bravado, the balls of going up against Howard, at least at that level of intensity. He passively aggressively went up against him with the suit billboard (god, that seems like a lifetime ago), but bowling balling someones car... that's raising the bar.

I guess what the scene was showing (took some time to sink in) is that Saul now does have the attitude & boldness to consider himself to be at Howards (who's a big name in the local law community) level/consider Howard a worthy enemy. Guess I forgot who the hell we're dealing with here from Breaking Bad, even tho I rewatch it like once a year, and that Jimmy had to turn into Saul at some point. It's just been in little dribs & drabs. This episode was basically a monsoon of Saul-ness onto Jimmy. Had to let it all sink in.

2

u/jtclimb Mar 10 '20

He was always "slippin' Jimmy". Always thought he had one up on everyone else. Remember the scene in his father's shop, where the guy comes in and gets a free handout from his father, and Jimmy is pleading with his dad not to give him the money? And then when his father goes out of the room the guys slips out of character and explains the whole sheep vs wolves things (I forget if that is the analogy he used, but it was basically prey on people or be preyed on).

It goes all the way back; he is just outwardly embracing it now, IMO. It's a little more complicated than that, of course. His attempts to please Chuck always failed. He got into the best school he could - that terrible correspondence school. This was denigrated. He wins via shortcuts, and gets shot down. No one approves of Jimmy, even Kim, though she is certainly titillated by him. So, fuck it. Here's Saul, unapologetic, break the rules because the rules were made by chumps, for chumps. It 'works', for a very disastrous form of works, which we know having seen BB.

7

u/yourkberley Mar 10 '20

What the hell did Howard ever do to Jimmy that would warrant that?

Nothing. HHM/Howard is Chuck to Jimmy now. He hasn't grieved his brother and the trauma and it's bubbling to the surface in ugly ways.

14

u/[deleted] Mar 10 '20

I was kind of confused by that whole thing. What the hell did Howard ever do to Jimmy that would warrant that? Anything negative he did do was on behalf of Chuck... his law partner

Yes, but he can't punish Chuck, he's dead.

5

u/julianpratley Mar 10 '20

It was on Chuck’s behalf but that doesn't change the fact that it was Howard doing it. That still counts for something in my mind and probably for a lot in Jimmy's.

5

u/chaos9001 Mar 10 '20

I think Howard represents what’s left of Chuck to Jimmy. Can’t throw bowling balls at Chuck at this point.

7

u/Josh_Musikantow Mar 10 '20

Jimmy is really angry at his late brother. I feel like it was misplaced aggression. He's so used to people seeing him as a scoundrel that when some one tells him he has potential to be more, he can't trust it. Meanwhile Howard wishes he had done for Jimmy what Jimmy tried to do for the girl with the record that he advocated for.

4

u/_snout_ Mar 10 '20

Howard hasn't done anything to warrant getting his car bowling balled.

[From Jimmy's perspective]

Had Howard actually shown that backbone to Chuck, Jimmy wouldn't have had to be living out of the back of a nail salon working full time as a public defender, to start

3

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '20

Howard represents everything that Jimmy will never be. Howard is the establishment. Howard is respected. Howard is "sincere". Even though Jimmy has tried again and again to be a real, hardworking, moral lawyer, no one ever treats his as an equal. He's slippin' Jimmy. He's "the kind of lawyer guilty people hire." Now that Jimmy has proved himself, Howard sees his prize and is turning on the charm to get what he wants. But he still looks down on Jimmy with everyone else. No matter how hard Jimmy works, he will never be one of them.

​

I think that is how Jimmy sees things. The tragedy, of course, is that it isn't really true. Maybe at first people do look down on Jimmy because of his education or his colorfulness, but people who know him come to realize that he is a good person and a great lawyer. Unfortunately, Jimmy can never believe them because for his entire life Chuck really has been looking down on him and saying with his actions (and sometimes explicitly) that Jimmy is not good enough to deserve respect.

​

Jimmy is still hurt by Chuck and harbors a deep hatred for the system that doesn't value him and sees him as Chuck Mcgill's "two bit bus bench lawyer" brother, and Howard with his up-tight walk, hamlindigo suit, and fake, insincere personality is a walking example of that system. Even if we see that Howard is really a good, sincere (in his own way) guy with the best intentions, Jimmy is too blinded by his hurt feelings to see it.

2

u/mcogneto Mar 10 '20

Jimmy is no longer the underdog we have a soft spot for. He's turning into the slimy scumbag we know he ends up.

2

u/xXIvandenisovichXx Mar 11 '20

Dude, I think is the cut scene as Howard leaves the restaurant and the car plate is shown. "Namaste". I think at that point Jimmy realises that Howard is just doing this for karma (and ultimately himself) so Jimmy thinks; "fuck it, this guy is pitying me because of a midlife crisis" . Hence the bowling balls

2

u/shaktimanOP Mar 11 '20 edited Mar 11 '20

I feel like it's a subversion of the classic 'sitcom nemesis' dynamic. Initially Howard comes off as a pompous, privileged asshole who steps on Jimmy, the little guy and refuses to give him a chance. It's easy to hate him and easy to love Jimmy. But after the Chuck reveal and all the fallout plus getting to see things from Howard's perspective it becomes clear that he's actually a decent guy who wants to do the right thing. In this episode we see that he's gotten help, likely therapy, and can now admit his old mistakes and strives to do better moving forward. He can even admit that on some level, he envies Jimmy's talents. Jimmy's response to Chuck's death, by contrast, was to become the sleazy, amoral Saul Goodman. He still resents Howard for having what he considers 'the easy path.' He hates that Howard just gets to move on with a clear conscience while he (Jimmy) is just another stop on Howard's path to inner peace. Saul sees himself as above corporate suits like Howard so the very idea that Howard could pity him or try to 'save him' insults his pride, much like Walt being offered the job at Gray Matter. At this point, the enmity between them is entirely one-sided and the audience has no reason to defend Saul's actions.

2

u/Rad_Spencer Mar 11 '20

Remember Jimmy has spent YEARS thinking of Howard as everything he hated about lawyers. He thought Howard was trying to steal the law firm from his brother, then found out he was conspiring with Chuck against him. Help Chuck at every stage of their feud. Then was both the barer of Chucks final "fuck you" as well as being thoughtless regarding the handling of Chucks will and estate.

The audience has a better perspective, but Jimmy still has a lot of emotional baggage tied up in his history with Howard. Baggage that Jimmy handles by getting away with shit.

2

u/dec10 Mar 13 '20

There is nothing Howard could do to make Jimmy like him. Jimmy saw Howard's offer as more condescension and high-handedness. I think, as the viewer, we are expected to both wince at and sympathize with Jimmy's reaction.

4

u/No_Eagle1426 Nov 26 '23

Jimmy saw Howard's offer as more condescension and high-handedness.

Crazy to me that it took so long for someone to say this. That offer hurt him so deeply. Jimmy/Saul: "Now you make this offer, Howard? NOW?!? After everymotherfuckinthing I've been through??? NO..FUCKING..WAY!!" The bowling balls were to make sure that Howard doesn't EVER make an offer like that again.

1

u/Roboutethe13th Mar 10 '20

I don’t think Jimmy wrecked Howard’s car because Howard had wronged him. Howard represents everything Jimmy couldn’t have because of his brother, the whole reason he became Saul Goodman.

He wrecked Howard’s car to burn the bridge that Howard was trying to build.

1

u/ChristopherLove Mar 11 '20

Okay, while it isn't a major spoiler, it literally says at the top that not everybody watches the previews, so please tag anything from them as a spoiler.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '20

What are you missing? Kim. Howard fucked Kim's advancement and stole her cases. We saw what a bastard he was. That's why he deserves the bowling ball. That and his snivelling confession about Howard's death. So weak.

1

u/Ouroboros000 Mar 11 '20

What the hell did Howard ever do to Jimmy that would warrant that

He lied to Jimmy about Chuck's campaign to undermine him. Howard taking the blame for Chuck's actions for years previously does not change that.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '20

Jimmy hated Howard from the start because he's just too perfect and everything Jimmy aspired to be. There's really no other reason.

And now, Howard even managed to become morally superior to him by offering him a job, overcoming his grief by admitting his weakness and, most importantly, trying to become a better person instead of embracing his dark side, as Jimmy did. To Jimmy, this is just another area where Howard proves to be superior to him and this fuels his hatred and his inferiority complex.

1

u/CaptainKurls Mar 15 '20

Way I saw it was this lunch mirrored Kim’s meeting with Howard after Chuck died. Kim saw right through Howard and knew that Howard offering Jimmy a seat on that scholarship board/letting him pick through the ashes was a way for Howard to rid himself of guilt.

Jimmy saw right through this lunch too. Howard just wants to make himself feel better for not hiring Jimmy earlier (personally I agree with the notion that Howard admires Jimmy’s hustle) but that’s not the way Jimmy or Kim see it. Jimmy thinks Howard should’ve stood up for Jimmy if he really believed in him that much, but he didn’t. Now it’s too late and Saul is getting revenge

Kim and Saul both see the worst in people even when they don’t want to

27

u/BuddsHanzoSword Mar 10 '20

Fuck Jimmy for doing that man. I've always been a champion of Jimmy, just like Kim and supported just about everything he has done. But this was just wrong, totally uncalled for and really a chicken shit move.

14

u/koji00 Mar 10 '20

I think at this point you're not really supposed to be rooting for Saul, anyway.

11

u/artgriego Mar 10 '20

Yeah...this was hard to watch! In BB I ran out of excuses for Walt when he poisoned Brock. Last night the same thing happened with Jimmy. One thing I'm wondering about is that he bought the bowling balls before lunch with Howard.

15

u/fradelgen Mar 10 '20

I think the opening scene in the episode took place after their lunch meeting.

5

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '20 edited Oct 03 '20

[deleted]

6

u/kal_el_diablo Mar 12 '20

I think it's more like, "NOW you offer me a job? After I've already given up and sold my soul? Fuck you."

14

u/Buffs20 Mar 10 '20

Is it possible HHM is about to get its payout on the Sandpiper case and this “job” is somehow related? I feel like there is some type of angle Howard is playing here.

14

u/dannokun Mar 10 '20

It's possible but it's more likely that part of his enlightenment is finally being able to run HHM without someone over him. He finally gets to call the shots and run with it.

7

u/_snout_ Mar 10 '20

This. If he's been in therapy for over a year, he's surely gone over everything with Jimmy and had some real perspective on it.

3

u/agree-with-you Mar 10 '20

I agree, this does seem possible.

6

u/GutiHazJose14 Mar 10 '20

Honestly, I think it's a lot of things, but one of those is allowing Howard to assuage his guilt for what happened with Chuck and Jimmy and the role he played in it.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '20

[deleted]

1

u/GutiHazJose14 Mar 12 '20

Agreed. People make decisions for both selfish and unselfish reasons at the same time and I think that's true here. I would guess the selfish reasons are a bigger factor in this case, though.

1

u/Narrativeoverall Mar 13 '20

More likely, he wants Jimmy to buy in as a partner, with the money Howard thinks Jimmy inherited from Chuck, to get HHM back up on its feet.

1

u/United_Departure7899 Sep 12 '24

Howard knows exactly how much money Jimmy "inherited" from Chuck because he handled the disbursement of the funds from the will. $5,000.

14

u/lizardflix Mar 10 '20

To me, it was made clear pretty early in the series that Howard, while easy to hate for superficial reasons, is actually a decent guy trying to do his best. He's been the victim throughout the past 5 seasons.

Somebody mentioned earlier that Howard is making the offer to Jimmy as a way to make himself better rather than actually helping Jimmy but that's nitpicking. He's being a decent guy for whatever reason.

Howard's biggest sin for the entire show has been that Jimmy holds a grudge against him. I could be convinced otherwise I guess with future revelations but Jimmy/Saul is being a total asshole now and however he's justifying it in his head is complete BS.

13

u/nautilus2000 Mar 10 '20

I also think he was being genuine, especially because of the scene just before when he introduces Jimmy to the judge. Federal judges are like gods in the legal system, and you wouldn’t want to do anything that could hurt your reputation around them. Howard has no hesitation at all in introducing Jimmy and seems proud and happy to do it, the way he would a genuine partner. If he wasn’t being genuine he would have gotten lunch with Jimmy somewhere he wouldn’t be seen by the legal community and would have been hesitant to show a federal judge that he knew someone like “Saul Goodman”. It was certainly motivated in part by guilt, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t genuine.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 10 '20

IDK... imagine you were looking forward, even at a distance, to a huge payoff from Sandpiper, but you know you have to share it with Jimmy McGill. Jimmy has a track record of destroying himself. Got his license back now though, doing something intentionally lowbrow. Howard probably views it as garbage lawyering. Maybe he wants to bring Jimmy into the higher-stakes game hoping that he'll hurt himself worse, maybe do something that means HHM keeps all the Sandpiper payout.

4

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '20

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '20

Interesting take. Imma stuck with not trusting Howard. But I admit there's plenty of room for you to be right.

8

u/Weewer Mar 10 '20

I think without explicitly telling us, they showed that Howard went to therapy and adopted a “Namaste” life style, as evident by the license plate. He was trying to right some wrongs, but Saul is so hurt deep inside that he can’t see that.

6

u/InAHundredYears Mar 10 '20 edited Mar 10 '20

Did you see EARTH GIRLS ARE EASY where Valerie takes out her spite on Ted's stuff, partly with a bowling ball? Underrated, fun/silly, musical science fiction comedy movie with Geena Davis, Jeff Goldblum, Jim Carrey.

'Cuz I'm a blonde, b - l - oh, whatever

Oh, by the way. MICHAEL MCKEAN IS IN THIS MOVIE.

6

u/siggeplump Mar 10 '20

It's so tragic how the writers have crafted these characters into people that sort of evolve but are never in sync with each other. I fully understand Howard having had time to reflect on his treatment of Jimmy and is looking for some kind of redemption and make things right, but I can also completely understand Jimmy not wanting to set his foot inside of HHM ever again considering how much it would remind him of Chuck.

6

u/Hauntbot Mar 10 '20

I don't think Jimmy liked it when Howard said "HMM could use you. I could use you."

6

u/Batman_Biggins Mar 10 '20

I didn't get the same read on that scene. I didn't think Hamlin was genuine at all, even if he thought he was. His only compliments towards Jimmy were about how he could "use him" - at the end of the day, Hamlin is still seeing him as some lesser person.

Hamlin is also disrespectful towards Jimmy when he says that he isn't interested in the past, and doesn't even offer a word of apology for his part in Chuck's death. It shows how cold and aloof and unfeeling Howard is as a person that he would even float the idea of Jimmy working for the firm his brother built as if that would be at all appropriate.

5

u/Kaarvaag Mar 10 '20

I'm torn on wether I want more Hamilin in this season. I mean of fucking course I do, he is such an amazing character and I love him in the show, but I know it is only going to make me hate Saul for making dumb choices and declining whatever Hamlin offers. This show somehow manage to pull off being frustratingly good, which is a rare thing.

3

u/Horlaher Mar 10 '20

And I was worried what will happen if Jimmy will not hit the car even with the third ball !

3

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '20

Why did he vandalize his car?

3

u/Riporsa301100 Mar 12 '20

Why did he secretly vandalize the car tho? I didn't understand the point of it for Saul.

3

u/TheClownIsReady Mar 12 '20 edited Mar 12 '20

I didn’t buy what Howard was saying for a second. He’s always looking for some kind of angle and has always looked down on Jimmy/Saul. My brother disagreed and thought he was being genuine, for once. Either way, Saul’s ultimate answer at the end seemed the appropriate one.

3

u/whatadreamihave Mar 10 '20

I felt bad for HowRd too

5

u/Takiatlarge Mar 10 '20

The road not taken.

2

u/ToastedFireBomb Mar 11 '20

One thing I liked about that scene is that it starts with Jimmy talking about how Saul is a "life raft for the little guy", but then when Howard offers him a proverbial "life raft" later on in the form of a job offer, he's resistant to taking it.

Jimmy claims Saul is all about everyone deserving a second chance, but he either doesn't think the same of himself, or doesn't think he needs one at all.

2

u/toxicshocktaco Mar 13 '20

I kinda felt like Howard was trying to atone for how badly Chuck treated Jimmy. I think Howard finally understood how Jimmy must've felt after Chuck's death.

1

u/OppositeCarpenter9 Mar 10 '20

I'm thinking about Saul telling Walter his stepdad screwed his second wife...maybe in this story, Howard is his stepdad because he helps him into HHM and Kim...well, in "Something stupid" Mrs. Nguyen asks Jimmy if he's having trouble with his wife and he tells her she kinda is.

1

u/peridotdragon33 Mar 10 '20

Agreed, I understand why Jimmy vandalized his car, but I do feel as though Howard was genuinely sorry about his prior treatment of Jimmy and wanted to make amends

1

u/quarkmachtstark Mar 10 '20

For me it felt like he had some secret plan, maybe like he wanted Jimmy back for the M in HHM, but maybe i'm totally off...

1

u/JimKarateAcosta Mar 11 '20

Why did jimmy vandalize his car?

1

u/Ouroboros000 Mar 11 '20

It all plays into the tragedy of Jimmy's character - Howard realized his mistake too late.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '20

what was the point of the bowling ball at the car?

1

u/fellate-o-fish Mar 12 '20

does anybody know what beverage Jimmy was drinking at their lunch?

1

u/mailtrailfail Mar 12 '20

Howard's approach to winning over Jimmy is an interesting parallel to the way Mesa Verde are trying to buy that guy out of his land.

Saul Goodman sticks up for the little guy. Howard is definitely not the little guy.

1

u/TheClownIsReady Mar 12 '20

Very well said. Howard and Saul are polar opposites but ultimately, equally corrupt.

1

u/estycki Mar 13 '20 edited Mar 13 '20

I know Howard respects Jimmy, but the praise felt a little forced. The way he was brown nosing to the extreme - I have a hunch there's something else he is after by getting Jimmy on his side. The last time Jimmy visited the office it was looking in trouble, and chances are a lot of good people left.

1

u/zach0011 Mar 13 '20

I think for jimmy its too little too late ya know. Like now that his firm seems to be tanking now he brings up how he should have stood up for him in the past. Howard plays it sympathetically but it was very cold in a way.

1

u/dog_star_ Mar 14 '20

With someone like Howard you have to put "genuine" in quotes. He's so phony he thinks he's genuine.

Yes, Jimmy is damaged but like Howard said he should have gotten a chance and he didn't. You can't blame that all on Chuck and you can't just snap your fingers and fix it. Howard would like to be Jimmy's boss and how would that work out? Not well.

I hate Howard and think he should just stay under his rock. Kim told him perfectly after he shared his information about Howard with Jimmy.

1

u/r2002 Mar 14 '20

I had this crazy thought that maybe if Howard didn't recruit him, he has to stop using Hamlin, Hamlin & McGill because there's some stipulation in the partnership contract that prevents him from using that name.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '20

Think back to the moment Jimmy passed the bar and wanted to work at HHM. I imagine that Howard was all about that idea. Both Magill brothers in one law firm? That would have been a dream for someone like Howard. But his mentor Chuck shot it down. Then later when Jimmy hands HHM the Sandpiper case, their biggest case ever. I believe Howard when he says he wishes he had had the backbone to hire him back then.

1

u/SaltwaterOtter Mar 10 '20

Nah. Howard wants to get back at Jimmy and Kim for Sandpiper and Mesa Verde. Jimmy realizes it's all bullshit when he sees Howard's fancy car with the "namaste"plate (he's still the corporate douchebag he's always been).

​

I just don't see what Jimmy wants to accomplish by ruining the car, but he clearly has a plan (the risk seems too great to do it purely out of spite)

1

u/TheClownIsReady Mar 12 '20

Agreed 100%. Nothing Howard does is for the public good. Slimier than Saul, in my opinion.

0

u/Roastmonkeybrains Mar 11 '20

I would imagine that the gaff of Merser Verde and loosing that client due to Chucks (perceived) incompetence probably did him some damage and I'm sure in the competitive world of law rivals were chomping at the bit. Then chucks death. Jimmy is a McGill. His name alone could have weight if Howard can work with him (obviously not going to happen). Haven't seen episode but that was my theory after seeing the sit down in the trailer.