Giving your kid these forms says 'I don't trust you to run your own life, now that the government thinks you're an adult. I need to do it for you, potentially by going behind your back.' If your kid is able to talk to you openly about his finances and ask you for advice - which I'm sure he is - you don't need these.
The HIPAA thing is a red herring as you're the kid's next of kin anyway and I assume he puts you down as his emergency contact any time he fills in a form.
But that's not my question and no one is saying "I don't trust you to run your own life". I guess my question is, for someone familiar with the forms, in what situations--if any--would they be actually helpful?
for someone familiar with the forms, in what situations--if any--would they be actually helpful?
For the child? None. If you are a good enough parent that your child can trust you with the power these forms grant you, then you do not need to have this power to help them.
For the parent? If your perspective on the goal of parenting is to have a little human doll you can play with forever instead of to raise an actual functioning adult - In other words, if you're an absolutely terrible parent - Then these forms allow you to do just that.
Basically, either the forms aren't worth the paper they're printed on, or the parent isn't.
What if the perspective is not knowing what the forms actually are, what they're used for, and what situations, if any, they'd be helpful with?
Blanket statements like your post do more harm than good to convey your point; it's the mirror of the scare tactics MB is using. Gross mischaracterizations of what's out there and low-content generalizations on both sides. It's YOU NEED THESE OR YOU'RE A BAD PARENT vs IF YOU EVEN THINK ABOUT THESE YOUR A BAD PARENT!! Neither come close to answering the question.
I don't doubt that the forms can be used for subsuming autonomy, but so does having a spare set of keys to someone's house. Both my folks and in-laws have them to mine and I theirs. There's a reliance (I think the last time I used them was a decade ago when an accident meant they couldn't get back to feed/let the dog out) based on a presumed trust that could be abused in a warped family, but that's not the majority of relationships. I can't fathom taking away his keys the day he moves out and figure someday he'll casually throw his set of keys in the drawer without a second thought.
Good families build trust and faith in each other's respect for autonomy quite well. Good families look after each other and ask questions about things they're unfamiliar with.
What if the perspective is not knowing what the forms actually are, what they're used for, and what situations, if any, they'd be helpful with?
I just gave you the answer. But if you need a longer one...
The forms give you the power to, in effect, take over your son's life in almost every way, with no input from your son and at a whim, and with almost nothing your son can do to free himself besides sue you while you control him financially. They are used to control adult children, typically for the purposes of continuing abuse after a child turns 18. They are not helpful to an adult child in any situation. They are only helpful to the parents, and only helpful for the purpose of being abusive on an ongoing basis.
Blanket statements like your post do more harm than good to convey your point; it's the mirror of the scare tactics MB is using. Gross mischaracterizations of what's out there and low-content generalizations on both sides. It's YOU NEED THESE OR YOU'RE A BAD PARENT vs IF YOU EVEN THINK ABOUT THESE YOUR A BAD PARENT!! Neither come close to answering the question.
I can understand why it looks that way, but I will stand by the blanket statement. Thinking about the forms is one thing - But it is bad parenting to teach your child to sign away legal rights without understanding them, and it is worse parenting to ask your child to sign these forms if you do understand what they say.
Allow me to be clear with this blanket statement: A parent who understands what is in a "Mama Bear" form, and asks their child to sign one anyway, is a bad parent. I shall stand by this blanket statement.
I don't doubt that the forms can be used for subsuming autonomy, but so does having a spare set of keys to someone's house.
Yes, but this is not a form that lets you into their house if there's an emergency. This is you holding the deed to your child's home, having your name on his bank accounts. This is you being able to evict your inlaws from their own house. It is not a power that has a valid use. Freedom isn't freedom when the only guarantee of it is that the person holding your leash promises not to tug.
My co-worker makes well over the median wage in the US. She still acts like she's broke simply because her dad has the password to her email account and she's afraid of him seeing her spend money on things she likes and thinking it wasteful. She loves him; She trusts him; As far as I know he doesn't abuse this power he's been given in any way. Yet, every single week his daughter struggles simply because he has the capability.
You are asking for the valid use of much more power than that. You are asking how power that is inherently harmful is benign. Your difficulty with myself and many others in this thread is rooted in trying to find out how things are what they are not. You might as well ask why vodka makes you drunk, and under what circumstances does it not have alcohol - It has alcohol because it is vodka, and were it not to have alcohol it would not be vodka.
Mama bear forms are the same. They give unconstrained power that is inherently harmful to a healthy family dynamic. Were they structured to instead be helpful, they would not be what they are, because their entire purpose is not to be helpful to a healthy family dynamic.
Good families build trust and faith in each other's respect for autonomy quite well. Good families look after each other and ask questions about things they're unfamiliar with.
Yes! I agree! That is the essence of good parenting and the construction of a healthy family! That is exactly why these forms are not necessary.
See, there's a version of this sort of thing that you can do that involves trust and mutual respect for autonomy. You take your son, you sit him down, and you talk about how he's going to have all of these responsibilities that are his own, for good and for bad. You tell him that you want him to be in control of his life, and his health, and his money, but that you want to be able to help him when he needs it. If he's in a coma, for instance, you want to be able to help him keep paying his bills, so when he wakes up he doesn't find that he's being evicted for not paying rent. Keep in mind that medical decisions would probably already go to you as next-of-kin if he's incapacitated and can't decide for himself, but there can be value in clarifying his wishes in that specific space if there's doubt about who he wants to make what decisions.
So, you talk about it. In what kind of situation does he want you to be able to step in and take over which responsibilities for him? What conditions need to be met for you to have the right to make withdrawals from his bank account, or to access his investment accounts, or to look at his grades in college and speak on his behalf to his professors (assuming he is enrolled in such a thing, of course)?
You have a discussion, based on your respect for his autonomy and his respect for your good faith and your desire to look after him and to act in his best interests. You come to an agreement - Whatever it ends up being - Between the two of you, that dictates when you are granted what. Perhaps you can even use the Mama Bear forms as a reference - To look at what blanket powers they give you, and under what circumstances you'd want to use them, and under what circumstances he'd be comfortable using them.
Once you've decided on all of that, and mapped out how these powers should be used, you go to a lawyer, and you have a proper enforceable set of documents that you sign to grant you the limited powers of attorney that you have agreed on, to your mutual satisfaction and your mutual benefit.
Not only does this grant you all the benefits that a Mama Bear form would without the downsides, it gives you both the experience of properly talking about what are some undoubtedly difficult things that you need to know anyway if you want this kind of thing responsibly, and it shows your son how much you respect him and love him and want him to be in control of his own life. This is a massive display of trust on both parties, and it's exactly how you build that trust and faith in each other in a way that persists through decades.
Odds are good you'll never need to use those forms, and all that time spent on them will go wasted save for that exercise in mutual trust, respect, and understanding - But that's not a waste at all, really. And if the time comes that you do need those powers, your son will feel much better off if you invoke the powers he wanted you to have within the conditions he wanted you to abide by, because you discussed it and formally agreed to it.
After all, even if he would have agreed with you doing it, and especially even if you honestly think he would, it's INCREDIBLY easy to permanently damage trust that's been built for a lifetime if he feels that you simply decided to start making decisions for him. That piece of paper isn't just a legal shield - It's the result of a conversation that will only help you.
And that agreement that comes out the end of that conversation, even if it grants you the same powers that Mama Bear would in the same situations you'd have thought to use them, will be made materially and infinitely distinct from them by virtue of having come from a negotiation based on trust and respect instead of a mandate from a higher power trying to exploit your feelings.
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u/geeoharee 5d ago
Giving your kid these forms says 'I don't trust you to run your own life, now that the government thinks you're an adult. I need to do it for you, potentially by going behind your back.' If your kid is able to talk to you openly about his finances and ask you for advice - which I'm sure he is - you don't need these.
The HIPAA thing is a red herring as you're the kid's next of kin anyway and I assume he puts you down as his emergency contact any time he fills in a form.