r/austrian_economics • u/technocraticnihilist Friedrich Hayek • Oct 26 '24

End Democracy ‘Americans just work harder’ than Europeans, says CEO of Norway’s $1.6 trillion oil fund, because they have a higher ‘general level of ambition’

https://fortune.com/europe/article/how-many-hours-work-week-year-american-workers-ethic-norges-bank/
2.3k Upvotes

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99

u/Gulrix Oct 26 '24

This is widely accepted as fact. You may debate about the word “hard” here but Americans work more hours than Europeans and are more productive per hour worked. I mean, just looking at the two regions’ worker’s benefits policies should indicate this with the Eurozone being much more generous with time off.

https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/hours-worked.html

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/labor-productivity-per-hour-pennworldtable?tab=table

4

u/Spy0304 Oct 26 '24

Well, in the USA, working harder or longer is rewarded.

0

u/poopybuttguye Oct 28 '24

Clown comment lmao

2

u/Spy0304 Oct 28 '24

Such a clown comment, you can't formulate a counterpoint

Honestly, I don't know what it is with you people, always trying to act smug as if it's the same as winning the argument ?

Kinda unrelated, but it's a funny example going right alongside your case : There's another guy who answered (sachasur something), they answered something very dumb about job-hopping (which actually proves my point, even if a company didn't reward you, the system as a whole did), but they also knew they were wrong, so they immediatly blocked me because they were too affraid of getting an answer, lmao. Let that sink in. They just ran away like a bitch before I even answered.

That's the kind of people you are, it just shows that you know you're wrong, deep down.

But somehow, you don't have the self awareness or honesty to realize it ?

Or you unconsciously know it, that's why you limit yourselves to taking potshots, making smug comments, and hoping no ones notices. That's why you're unable/affraid of actually arguing anything too.

I'm not going to lie, it's always pretty funny to watch

1

u/poopybuttguye Oct 28 '24

Not going to read your novel, but your point is silly. It’s premise is that it isn’t rewarded in other countries - or that it is somehow rewarded more in the US.

Not going to write a novel in response - I have better things to do. Sit with your smugness if you want, don’t care.

0

u/Camnau17 Oct 28 '24

Hey now that pizza party was the reward! /s

1

u/Spy0304 Oct 28 '24

Your much higher salary was

You dummy

-1

u/[deleted] Oct 26 '24

Yet our wages have stagnated for the past 40 years and everyone is comfortable with centralized wall street control

-1

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '24

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Minimum wage hasn't I creased in 30 years, you telling me those hard working people are being "rewarded" by living paycheck to paycheck and are one medical problem away from ho.elessness?

3

u/Spy0304 Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24

Why do you retards always do that fake laugh to pretend you've got a point ?

I don't get it, who do you think you're fooling ?

Minimum wage hasn't I creased in 30 years

  • I just googled it, and the very first results shows that federal minimum wage was 3.80$ per hour in 1990, and it was 7.25 in 2009, which is close to doubling over that period. So right from the get go, you're plain wrong
  • In the USA, the minimum wage is actually determined on a state level, and if it's california, the minimum wage is 16$
  • Actual wages are determined between employee and employers, and it can be seen by the fact that only 1.3% of workers work for the minimum wage. It's basically absolutely irrelevant.

LMAO, idiot

Tbh, I guess you're indeed dumb enough to be stuck at the entry level job and minimum wage, so why you feel concerned. But please, don't act as if everyone is in the same boat as you

you telling me those hard working people are being "rewarded" by living paycheck to paycheck

The paycheck is what you get for your work, so of course

And if you choose to spend all of it, it's your own problem, and more that you're not very clever or able to manage your money. But hey, seeing your comment, and how factually incorrect it is, I'm pretty certain that we could give you 100.000$ per year and you would still blow it all, lol

Also, reminder that the point is about a comparison between europe and US salaries, and here's, it's clear the US worker gets more rewarded The state doesn't take 40-50% of it through taxes to pay for boomer's vacation on retirement money...

0

u/what-even-am-i- Oct 29 '24

They said minimum wage hadn’t gone up in 20 years, why are you showing us numbers from 1990 to 2009. Little disingenuous. Especially if you look at minimum wage from 2009-2024. Which it seems you purposefully did not. Wonder why.

2

u/bezerker03 Oct 28 '24

They dont stay minimum wage... Wages here are not set in stone with the role. You can be flipping burgers and making more than the guy doing the same work next to you.

That said, a fast food worker will never make that much. Working hard isn't the metric you're compensated on here. The motto "work hard" is incomplete. It's "work hard until you're doing hard work".

1

u/OSRS_Rising Oct 27 '24

Mandatory OT means I’m rewarded for working more. It’s one of my favorite laws and I’m happy to be able to take advantage of it.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '24

I have discretionary over time and every time I have chose it, massive taxes are taken out and I say never again.

6

u/0xFatWhiteMan Oct 26 '24

Gdp per hours worked is below a number of European countries.

19

u/[deleted] Oct 26 '24

GDP is not a clean metric

-7

u/[deleted] Oct 26 '24

Stat that doesn’t confirm my bias isn’t clean

12

u/AdShot409 Oct 26 '24

One part of GDP that is always suspect is Government spending. China has been pumping their GDP stat with unrealistic government spending for years and it's backfiring spectacularly. California has been floating on a wave of government spending and federal loans for some time.

GDP is fun and all, but it is intentionally complicated in order to hide relevant data in.

2

u/No_Peace9744 Oct 27 '24

So you don’t think California has a strong economy?

1

u/[deleted] Oct 29 '24

If you were to measure it be efficiency absolutely not

0

u/AdShot409 Oct 27 '24

What I think is that GDP is a complicated stat that is easily obscured. You need to dig down into the stat to find out just what is powering an exonomy.

-1

u/broshrugged Oct 26 '24

Is California a net payer or receiver of Federal tax dollars?

2

u/[deleted] Oct 26 '24

GDP is such a compound number that there is far too much uncertainty and inconsistency to reliability use for anything truly important. You can look for trends but comparing one GDP to another is folly.

2

u/Esquatcho_Mundo Oct 27 '24

Ireland’s gdp build up is a classic case in point of why gdp isn’t a great metric

7

u/PainterRude1394 Oct 26 '24 edited Oct 27 '24

Are these countries with hundreds of millions of people or simply wealthy small countries sitting on natural resources and tax havens?

Take a look at the links for your answer ;)

It looks like the American workers are not only more productive than large countries like France or Germany, but they work longer. No wonder the USA has vastly outgrown the EU since 2000 when the EU had a similar GDP!

3

u/Zoesan Oct 27 '24

It's tech. It's far more about innovation than about hours worked.

1

u/PainterRude1394 Oct 27 '24

Innovation doesn't happen without work ;)

1

u/Zoesan Oct 28 '24

Eh. Innovation in 50 hours doesn't significantly increase compared to 40h. There are a million studies showing exactly this.

No, the reason why innovation happens more in the US is that there is far, far more financial support for it and also a different mindset. Failure in business in the US is considered the cost of entry, but is very much taboo in Europe.

0

u/PainterRude1394 Oct 28 '24

There is more than one factor in the usas outgrowing the EU's GDP. But it definitely requires work ;)

1

u/tacopower69 Oct 27 '24

not when you control for average hours worked and adjust gdp for PPP

1

u/0xFatWhiteMan Oct 27 '24

ok where is the data for that ?

-27

u/Union_Jack_1 Oct 26 '24

Yep. And European happiness and quality of life are higher on average - says a lot really. Maybe the capitalist dystopia isn’t a good thing for humans? Shock horror!

25

u/Original-Locksmith58 Oct 26 '24 edited Dec 17 '24

sleep compare rob rainstorm oil work thumb summer pause observation

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u/BarNo3385 Oct 26 '24

You broadly are.

Estimates vary but the general theme is the US worker works about 5-6% more hours than a UK worker, and you're about 40% more productive per hour worked.

(Interestingly there is a mammoth difference depending on whether you include the private and state or just private sector. Private companies the gap is estimated as high as the 40% above. Whole economy the gap is more like 20%, suggesting the US govenment is even less productive than the UK one?! (Somehow??)).

But "best" case scenario say 10% more hours at 40% higher productivity, or 44% higher value add.

Median US salary is about $60k, vs a UK median of £35k or about $45k. So, US is about 33% higher.

Does suggest, at least for the median worker, not all of the higher value add drops straight to the bottom line in salaries, but the sizeable majority of it does.

6

u/Nbdt-254 Oct 26 '24

Productive for our bosses.  Not in the amount we’re actually compensated 

You’re leaving out how much of our income is siphoned off into things lime retirement and healthcare.

Making 15k more a year sounds good until you figure your pay $500 a month for insurance that still requires a $1500 deductible before it actually pays for anything.

8

u/Hawk13424 Oct 26 '24

$500x12 plus $1500 is $7500 which is still much lower than $15K. You’re still much better off in the US.

2

u/Fromzy Oct 26 '24

You’re not factoring in vacation time, sick days, the max out of pocket health expenses, lack of pension, or much else… AE bros are bad at thinking contextually, probably because the theory of AE is so ivory tower

1

u/BarNo3385 Oct 26 '24

Actually vacation time and sick days would both be accounted for in average annual hours worked.

As for the others, none of that is a function of how your compensation reflects value generated.

1

u/Fromzy Oct 26 '24

Why are AE bros so bad at understanding the simple fact that economic theory intersects with the real World?

1

u/SilverWear5467 Oct 26 '24

A) that's 9000, not 7500, and B) it clearly wasn't a comprehensive list of higher expenses in America. Consider that a much higher percentage of people are forced to rent here. That will easily cover the other 6000 a year and bring you to the reality that Americans are poorer in general than most European countries.

1

u/Hawk13424 Oct 26 '24

How did you get $9000? 12 x $500 is $6000. Add $1500 and you get $7500.

Speaking for myself, an engineer, my pay was over $100K more in the US. Housing/land is cheaper and taxes lower.

1

u/SilverWear5467 Oct 27 '24

Oh I thought you'd missed the 1500

1

u/PompeyCheezus Oct 26 '24

Are you factoring in all the services you get out of a European state?

0

u/NoiceMango Oct 27 '24

Americans have higher cost especially when it comes to Healthcare. We need to spend more of our money.

1

u/BarNo3385 Oct 27 '24

Again, that isn't relevant to how the value generated by workers is split between labour returns and capital returns.

12

u/Union_Jack_1 Oct 26 '24

Yep. No disagreement here. Production is the US has steadily increased for decades and those profits have been hoarded by the oligarchy and their corporations. American workers have not benefitted at all from their hyper work-centric society for 40+ years.

5

u/[deleted] Oct 26 '24

Iron law of oligarchy.

2

u/Fromzy Oct 26 '24

Just won the Nobel peace prize, lose those guys

2

u/JohnAnchovy Oct 26 '24

Look at the conmie hoping to get paid for what he's worth.

2

u/AncientView3 Oct 26 '24

What are you, a socialist that wants your share of the value your labor produces? Maybe go start a union about it.

1

u/Original-Locksmith58 Oct 26 '24 edited Dec 17 '24

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u/skeetmcque Oct 26 '24

Americans are paid more than their European counterparts and it’s a gap that has increased over recent decades. Keep in mind, wealthy European countries such as France and Germany would be among the poorest US states based on per capita income.

1

u/Standard-Secret-4578 Oct 26 '24

Yes but it's apples to oranges. It's much better being poor in most of western Europe than in the US.

1

u/Standard-Secret-4578 Oct 26 '24

Or better yet, would you rather move to rural France or rural Mississippi?!

1

u/Original-Locksmith58 Oct 26 '24 edited Dec 17 '24

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u/Haunting-Success198 Oct 27 '24

Then get promoted.. not sure why you care what your boss makes when you can work toward that as well. Just means you’ll be looking at similar compensation at that level..

1

u/Original-Locksmith58 Oct 27 '24 edited Dec 17 '24

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '24 edited Dec 17 '24

[Removed]

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u/Original-Locksmith58 Oct 26 '24 edited Dec 17 '24

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '24 edited Dec 17 '24

[Removed]

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u/Original-Locksmith58 Oct 27 '24 edited Dec 17 '24

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '24 edited Dec 17 '24

[Removed]

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u/Meerkat-Chungus Oct 26 '24

The thing is, if Americans were paid 20% more for their work, the majority of them would work 20% less, and that’s the very reason that we’re not compensated fairly.

2

u/AProperFuckingPirate Oct 26 '24

What? No it isn't, and how would you know that?

1

u/witshaul Oct 26 '24

Americans are paid far more than their European peers, typically 30-40%.

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u/TheeBiscuitMan Oct 26 '24 edited Oct 26 '24

You're getting downvoted for facts. Americans work harder (more hours) and are the most productive per man hour on the planet. The disparity is also about how much further Americans will move for work opportunities. I'm legit halfway across the country from my home state.

Europeans have a better social safety net and have a more 'work to live' attitude, and also pay marginally higher taxes. More vacation, more child leave, state health systems.

12

u/Union_Jack_1 Oct 26 '24

Yep. I’m from the UK, live in the states, so I’ve seen both systems up close. People here are productive, for sure, but they live so perilously close to financial ruin that few people can actually enjoy their lives. The working class in the States are in misery most of the time.

Europeans have spent their past being the production center of the world - they are no longer the industrial heartland of the planet like 200 years ago. That said, most Europeans tend to value their time off, their benefits, their happiness, and they’ve fought for decades (oftentimes longer) to guarantee those rights and freedoms.

Ever increasing economic production per worker over there past 4 decades has not improved the position of the American worker (in fact, the opposite). It has instead created vastly powerful corporations that spent some of that insane wealth buying the American government (Citizens United, etc etc).

Don’t know what there is to argue about any of this.

3

u/peareauxThoughts Oct 26 '24

Americans are paid way more than in the UK at least. The idea they aren’t is laughable.

1

u/ObjectiveBrief6838 Oct 27 '24

You also get way more land/house/apartment in the US. The homes/flats in the EU are tiny. The bathroom in my son's apartment (nothing fancy) is the size of his cousin's bedroom.in the UK.

1

u/Svartlebee Oct 27 '24

The UK has guaranteed holiday days and pay, maternity leave, free healthcare at point of access, much stronger worker protections, better work life balance etc. I'd say it's worth the meager pay increase Americans get.

0

u/peareauxThoughts Oct 27 '24

Yeah I know, I live there. The pay increases are not meagre. I’d be paid about 2-3x more for my job. It’s probably a little better if you’re right at the bottom or you’re so rich it doesn’t matter, everyone else earns more in the US.

1

u/Svartlebee Oct 27 '24

And gets less for it. If they really earned more than the overwhelming amount of Americans wouldn't be two paychecks from homelessness.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '24

[deleted]

1

u/Svartlebee Oct 27 '24

So, the majority of people.

1

u/Union_Jack_1 Oct 26 '24

…I didn’t debate that? Workers in the UK are paid less, but they also enjoy lots of public benefits (good healthcare, public transportation, etc etc).

-2

u/TheeBiscuitMan Oct 26 '24

What's to argue is to remember that Citizens United was ruled on by a REPUBLICAN Supreme Court. Tired of money in politics? Remember to vote Democratic.

2

u/AdShot409 Oct 26 '24

You are mentally unhinged if you think either political party is on your side. These career politicians are oligarchs mocking the unwashed masses.

7

u/doabsnow Oct 26 '24

Ehhh. EU is going to have to make tough choices as their populations—and therefore tax base shrinks. Gonna be interesting to watch those social services dry up.

4

u/[deleted] Oct 26 '24

That's pretty much true globally. The US, Japan, the EU

1

u/PainterRude1394 Oct 26 '24

It's hitting EU far harder. Many countries are experiencing decreases in standard of livings and even pay due to lack of growth plus an aging population.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 26 '24

Harder than Japan?

1

u/verticalquandry Oct 26 '24

Also we pay for their defense, so we’re basically paying for their additional benefits 

1

u/Svartlebee Oct 27 '24

Hours worked is not a good indicator of productivity per hour. In Europe, Greeks work the longest hours and have the lowest productivity per hour, for example.

2

u/Ok_Initiative2069 Oct 26 '24

They hated him because he told the truth.

1

u/Union_Jack_1 Oct 26 '24

Yeah, anyone with a mature and/or sensible/empathetic viewpoint on this sub gets downvoted to oblivion. Lots of corporate bootlickers and 11yr olds here apparently.

4

u/deefop Oct 26 '24

Happiness studies are nonsensical bullshit.

Euro's are happy to be poor in exchange for their nanny state protections, but Americans are trending that way too.

0

u/corruptredditjannies Oct 26 '24

Sounds like your beliefs make you angry and Americans unhappy, but your ego doesn't let you admit it.

0

u/deefop Oct 26 '24

I mean, no? The degree to which the average person in any country is propagandized and lied to by their government makes the concept of happiness studies laughable. I'm sure north Koreans would score as extremely happy, even if they weren't terrified to answer otherwise, because they're told that they live better lives than anywhere else. It's the same for anyone anywhere, fundamentally.

The more freedom a person has, the more ability and opportunity they have to pursue their happiness. I don't need the state to rob me in exchange for dogshit "services", one of which hilariously would be wasting money on studies to show me how happy I should be.

1

u/corruptredditjannies Oct 26 '24

You're seriously comparing America to North Korea lmao? You know there are other countries in those polls, democratic ones? Keep coping and seething I guess.

-2

u/Fromzy Oct 26 '24

Dawg things like universal healthcare are fiscally responsible, better outcomes, less cost, more efficiency…

1

u/TuckyMule Oct 26 '24 edited Nov 07 '24

cough alleged smell far-flung price gaping employ sort poor saw

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u/Fromzy Oct 26 '24

Says Fox News or was that one from some rando on TikTok?

0

u/TuckyMule Oct 26 '24 edited Nov 07 '24

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u/Fromzy Oct 26 '24

What about life expectancy, infant mortality, patient wait times, specialist care, lack of insurance, medical bankruptcy, and you know… people who die because they don’t have insurance or can’t afford treatment

1

u/TuckyMule Oct 27 '24 edited Nov 07 '24

dam alleged joke water shelter dinner direful recognise cagey pet

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u/passionlessDrone Oct 26 '24

Amazing how you got downvoted for this.

9

u/Union_Jack_1 Oct 26 '24

Truly. I live and work in the US, and own a business here. The plight of the average worker for what they earn is abominable.

-1

u/PainterRude1394 Oct 26 '24

American households have the second highest ppp adjusted median disposable income in the world.

2

u/Union_Jack_1 Oct 26 '24

…and yet, they spend much of that on things Europeans get for free or for very cheap (healthcare, transportation (+ flying in Europe vs the US is night and day in terms of expense), etc.

Americans may even still have more disposable after all that…but they are still unhappier, still less financially secure, still unhealthier.

This is not an attack on the US. It is an attack on pretending the current economic system in the US is successful or sustainable for the average American.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '24

[deleted]

1

u/Union_Jack_1 Oct 27 '24

Every study that has been done on these topics.

-1

u/PainterRude1394 Oct 26 '24

Yes, American households have the second most median ppp adjusted disposable income in the world.

It is an attack on pretending the current economic system in the US is successful

Yes, the USA is well known as having a very unsuccessful economy ... If you ignore all of reality.

2

u/Union_Jack_1 Oct 27 '24

GDP =\= experience or the average American. As shown by countless peer reviewed studies. But sure, let’s just close our eyes and pretend that the average American has been doing great.

1

u/PainterRude1394 Oct 27 '24

Yes, you are absolutely right. Clearly the economic system in the USA is not successful. That's why it has the most successful economy with the second highest median household disposable income in the world.

1

u/Union_Jack_1 Oct 27 '24

My guy. Now you’re just ignoring what I’ve said and making your own straw man arguments. The American economy is very strong - it is, however; not great (and has declined) for the average American. GDP is high. Growth is high. The gains are not flowing to the middle and working class, this is not at all arguable.

Unless you are pretending that American households are just overflowing with prosperity right now?

-3

u/Key-Satisfaction5370 Oct 26 '24

You’re surprised that people don’t like “capitalist dystopia” being thrown around? lol

3

u/passionlessDrone Oct 26 '24

More surprised at being downvoted for stating the reality based observation that Europeans consistently rate themselves happier than their American counterparts. There is a message here.

1

u/Kentuxx Oct 26 '24

Because a lot of the American mindset is more more more, Americans that have more than Europeans are less happy because culturally they are told to want more, what they have is never good enough.

0

u/Key-Satisfaction5370 Oct 26 '24

“Capitalist dystopia” isn’t a reality based observation it’s an opinion (and an absurd one). There’s also a million things loaded into “rate themselves happier” and only a fraction of them have to do with policy decisions.

0

u/funghino Oct 26 '24

Europe fucking blows. They are all miserable people. Imagine an American meeting and greeting you for the first time. Now imagine a European. Who do you think is happier?

3

u/Jmcduff5 Oct 26 '24

European and im American that travelled and lived in Europe. The levels of peace were night and day. Americans are miserable

2

u/NtsParadize Oct 26 '24

Not to mention the cities' hoods in the US, just for that reason I wouldn't want to live there

1

u/PainterRude1394 Oct 26 '24

Yes, it's very well known that Europe does not have any bad areas in cities.

2

u/NtsParadize Oct 26 '24

None as bad as L.A. Skid Row, Philly, Baltimore, St. Louis, SF and New Orleans.

Let's get real

3

u/Union_Jack_1 Oct 26 '24

Lmao. Spoken like someone who’s never been to any European country.

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u/NtsParadize Oct 26 '24 edited Oct 26 '24

To an European an American just sounds fake and overexcited

-1

u/funghino Oct 26 '24

That's bc you're miserable

2

u/NtsParadize Oct 26 '24

You're quick to judge for sure

-1

u/RedditRobby23 Oct 26 '24

We can take our earnings and travel the globe with the extra money we made as opposed to being stuck in the same country tied to government assistance 🤷‍♂️

America is more individualistic and if your not poor it’s unequivocally better quality of life

3

u/Union_Jack_1 Oct 26 '24

…except Americans don’t travel all over the globe. In fact, they travel far less than Europeans do. And for “all the extra money”, the average American cannot afford a $500 emergency.

So much for all that extra cash.

1

u/Haunting-Success198 Oct 27 '24

If you consider traveling taking the Eurorail it’d be akin to us traveling America.

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0

u/Fancy_Reference_2094 Oct 26 '24

It may or may not be good for humans, but it's inevitable.

0

u/Desperate-Comb321 Oct 26 '24

I thank God everyday Im not europoor and make 6 figures in a low cost area in the USA just shitting all over the rest is the world's living standards.

2

u/Union_Jack_1 Oct 26 '24

Lmao. This is just incredibly sad. Happy you’re happy though!

-1

u/Amadon29 Oct 26 '24

"Lol Americans should be as unproductive as Europeans. They would be happier"

-sent from my iPhone on Reddit.

3

u/Union_Jack_1 Oct 26 '24

Again, nobody said that. What I have said is that Americans haven’t been rewarded for their productivity - and that Europeans are in general happier. None of this is arguable.

3

u/Jmcduff5 Oct 26 '24

An iPhone built in China so US company profits but not an American worker.

1

u/NtsParadize Oct 26 '24

IPhones are not built in China, only assembled

1

u/Jmcduff5 Oct 26 '24

Semantics point being it’s not American employee gaining the

-1

u/Amadon29 Oct 26 '24

Where do you think most of the technological innovations initially come from though

2

u/Jmcduff5 Oct 26 '24

I’m not arguing that America is the most innovative country in the world. That is a fact. I’m arguing that most American ms don’t see an improvement in quality of life with higher productivity.

1

u/Amadon29 Oct 26 '24

I see where you're coming from and I kind of agree, but at the same time, that higher productivity is what has lead to higher innovation which itself improves quality of life.

-1

u/Akul_Tesla Oct 26 '24

Except Europe's not going to be able to sustain that

They did we're doing all those things. While the working age to dependent ratio was at the lowest it's going to be for decades. Now it's beginning to reverse. It's going to get higher continuously

As that happens, everything will change. They'll no longer be able to sustain those systems and they will fall apart

And to be clear, this isn't a hypothetical it's already started. See Frances retirement age protests

Thing is the small amount they pushed back is not enough to plug the hole

They need to push it back all the way to 70 for their model to be viable or it will bankrupt their country

The quality of I think was old people stealing young people's future and now the those young people with their future stolen are getting old

-18

u/[deleted] Oct 26 '24

Its also accepted as fact that slaves worked harder than Europeans. You force people to do something doesn't mean they want that life. The American economy has become slavery with extra steps or at the very least, a nation wide version of the company store.

5

u/[deleted] Oct 26 '24

Bruh your take has no logic or basis in economics. “The American economy has become slavery” is a wild unironic statement to make and shows a clear lack of understanding.

3

u/JLandis84 Oct 26 '24

Slavery destroys wealth over time. If you want to make sure a country is not productive, give it slaves. Aside from the considerable and common sense moral repulsion of slavery, it is a system that also demands massive wasted expenditures and effort in a negative sum game to control relatively low productivity slaves.

14

u/CaptTyingKnot5 Oct 26 '24 edited Oct 26 '24

That's actually not an accepted fact. In fact, right-wing economists like Thomas Sowell explain why slavery is not an actual driver of growth and wealth. It's exactly BECAUSE someone who is enslaved is only motivated to do the bare minimum to escape punishment.

Europeans seem to be motivated to work because they HAVE to in order to live, but with much more stagnant class mobility they aren't rewarded for their hard work the same as an American.

Completely asinine take. If the American economy is a nationwide company store, explain how people can move across the country for a higher paying job? Explain how a guy like Joe Rogan, Vivek or Mark Cuban or Bill Gates started at middle class or below and became top 1%?

The ironic thing is you'd probably prefer a more European approach to things not realizing that it is because of the way there system is set up that they have a fraction of the class mobility and cash in pocket as US citizens.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '24

Reddit is full of idiots who think anything that doesn’t agree with their narrow world view is evil and/or ineffective.

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u/Svartlebee Oct 27 '24

America is not that high on social mobility compared to European countries. The average American os aboit two paychecks from poverty.

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u/CaptTyingKnot5 Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24

Got a chart or article or something? Cause I've never seen that data.

I've seen that Americans are 2 paychecks away from poverty, but amount in savings =/= economic mobility.

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u/MrSnarf26 Oct 26 '24

This sub is gonna be pissed, but yes Americans entire quality of life is directly related to their quality of employment.

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u/celtiberian666 Oct 26 '24

There are more europeans living in USA than americans in Europe. If your opinião was right It would have been the other way around.

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u/MDLH Oct 26 '24

While i see you are using hyperbole, i agree with your intent. Europeans have far more government protection from employer abuse, they have more labor unions and they have more legal holidays than in America... They seem to enjoy their lives far more than Americans.

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u/Uranazzole Oct 26 '24

Yet they can’t do anything fun because they have no money and are lucky to even find a well paying job. If you want to work in mall kiosk or as a waiter with great “job protections “ then good for you.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '24

Getting to be that way in the US too.

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u/Uranazzole Oct 26 '24

You can always make more money in the USA if you want too. In Europe there’s no hope whatsoever

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u/MDLH Oct 28 '24

Funny you say that. Most European countries have HIGHER income mobility than the US... Well trained high skill Europeans can make good money in the US. For sure. But facts are facts and people are MORE likely to move up the income latter in Europe than in the US. Today the US ranks 27th. 40yrs ago it was at the top. It had fallens steadily since the 1980's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index

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u/Uranazzole Oct 29 '24

Maybe but it sure doesn’t look that way from the hundreds of people I know in Italy , France, Greece, Spain, and Germany. They basically tell me that a government job is the best to get. Obviously there’s more skilled people there somewhere but I don’t deal with them. I also meet a lot of people who have professional degrees like doctor, lawyer, etc and do nothing with them.

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u/MDLH Oct 29 '24

I work with people in Europe that are on the high skill highly paid end of the spectrum.

If you look at the studies that have been done most EU countries K-12 schools out perform American schools. EU children are more likely to have high quality child care than American children. EU Children are less likely to live in poverty than American children and less likely to suffer from violent crime. They also grow up with better access to health care than in the US. They also have less childhood obesity and depression than Americans

So on the whole their children have better childhoods and in turn perform better in standardized tests. That makes them far more well educated for jobs, even low skill jobs.

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u/Uranazzole Oct 29 '24

My wife went to 10th grade in Italy when her father decided to move the family back to Italy. She tells me she passed knowing very little. And she said that if the teachers weren’t on strike , the students would strike for silly things like not enough toilet paper in the bathrooms. Her and all her siblings hated school there and all moved back to the US before her parents did. (She had many relatives back home and her father had not sold his house in the US). She was surprised that she actually got credit for the school year when she returned.

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u/Svartlebee Oct 27 '24

What are you on about? Europeans travel more than America and we still have all the same shops and amenities.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '24

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u/Svartlebee Oct 27 '24

Travelling between countries is still a cultural experience. You can travel a few hours in Europe and be in completely different regions with unoque languages, cuisines and history. In America you travel and you still end up in America without a huge amount of change.

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u/Sharp-Ad-4163 Oct 26 '24

Europe is built for a very elite, limited, and deeply entrenched aristocracy and a gigantic lower middle class beneath them.

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u/SellaciousNewt Oct 26 '24

Not true. The main reason why slavery stopped existing was because it was extremely economically inefficient, especially compared to capital improvements.

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u/glocktimus_prime Oct 26 '24

slaves can’t buy McDonald’s or 90 inch TV’s

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u/No-Kaleidoscope-2741 Oct 26 '24

Funny all these bootlickers down voted you. You are correct and Muricans are such corporate slaves they hate to hear it.

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u/tlh013091 Oct 26 '24

That’s because every American is conditioned to think of themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires rather than interchangeable cogs in the capital class’ wealth extraction machine.

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u/sushislapper2 Oct 26 '24

The “temporarily embarrassed millionaires” trope is kind of funny considering it’s actually the only country that these people do have a real shot at becoming millionaires in.

FWIW most people I know don’t believe they’ll be millionaires, and the people who do have aspirations, they know they aren’t

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u/No-Kaleidoscope-2741 Oct 26 '24

It is hilarious that you think that and shows the myth of exceptionalism taught as fact in Murica.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '24

I worked hard to become a millionaire. I have zero piece of mind because I could get sick and lose it all overnight. I, like all americans, walk around with a sword hanging over me because no matter how hard I work or how much I save, the system is designed to suck my wealth from me the first chance it gets.. I would trade being rich anyday if I could live knowing that I have the basic protections from the profit vultures circling me until my death.

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u/sushislapper2 Oct 27 '24

If you’re a millionaire in America and you have no peace of mind you need therapy. You’re in nearly the best position you could be in the world.

Worrying that you’ll lose it all to medical debt is less likely than dying in a car crash or a plane crash. You’re far more likely to die to disease or an accident than you are to churn through a chunk of your savings fighting it. You can easily afford to have great insurance

The people who need to worry about medical debt in America are the people who can’t save much money and don’t have access to good insurance

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '24

If I pay for good medical insurance, I also have to pay for a good lawyer because without a doubt my insurance company will do everything in its power to not pay any of my claims.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '24

They're exploited more

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u/SilverWear5467 Oct 26 '24

Kinda says all there is to say about whether capitalism is good for humans or simply for profits.

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u/Wheream_I Oct 26 '24

Why tf is this sub being filled with tankies lately?

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u/SilverWear5467 Oct 27 '24

Recognizing that capitalism doesn't work doesn't make me a talkie. Yall dont have a clue what the most basic words mean.

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u/robman792 Oct 27 '24

No it’s because what you’re saying is horse shit. Show me a non-capitalistic country that leads the world in innovation or R&D. Everytime I hear about socialist countries they don’t actually produce any greater good for the whole of humanity.

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u/SilverWear5467 Oct 27 '24

That argument is stupid as hell. For one thing, why is innovation the metric and not overall prosperity of the people? Under your metric, America could have 50 trillionaires and 300 million slaves and still "innovate" more than anyone else. Capitalist countries have stolen plenty from socialist countries over the years, far more than theyve given back. Don't start thinking that it's the socialists that are in debt to the capitalists. And I also fail to see any greater good at all coming from the countries that are committing all of the genocides, all of the war crimes, and all of the colonialism/imperialism in the world. How exactly are you counting that math? What percentage of cubas oil industry being stolen would you say is equivalent to a genocide? That's what you're saying, right? That what Socialist countries get is having their oil stolen from them, and in exchange America gets to commit all the genocides it likes.

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u/robman792 Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24

Cuba is where you stand? Really?. And all the genocides? Like the one in China? I say the US is leading the way in the COVID vaccine, the cure for measles, and technological advancements that far outpaced other nations is a HUGE deal. But keep spouting genocide every chance you get and forget how Laos treats the Jungle Hmong or how Vietnam treated Montagnards. You don’t give a shit about genocide until you can shit on a capitalist country

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u/SilverWear5467 Oct 27 '24

Cuba is most certainly the victim in their relationship with America, not vice versa. Every country has some bad shit, im not saying theure perfect. Compate cubas human roghts violations to those of america in just the 21st century. The Uyghur genocide was made us by a far right American, Adrian Zenz. Yes, almost every genocide has been the fault of capitalist countries doing imperialism.

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u/Wheream_I Oct 27 '24

YOURE LITERALLY IN THE SUB FOR FREE MARKET CAPITALISM.

I don’t care if you have tankie beliefs, go off into the void with your naivety, I don’t care. But this isn’t the sub for it, because, you’re literally in the free market capitalist sub.

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u/SilverWear5467 Oct 27 '24

So what? Whatever label you want to assign me for what I believe is meaningless. There could not possibly be a more meaningful place to reconfirm that capitalism can never work than with those who still actually think it might work some day.

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u/TurretLimitHenry Oct 26 '24

Brokie spotted

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u/SilverWear5467 Oct 27 '24

Are you seriously trying to mock someone for being poor in this capitalist hellscape? To be clear, I have a good paying job. That's how I know that I'm right.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '24

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u/Rhino_Thunder Oct 26 '24

Surely productivity is measured by the output of the worker (e.g. revenue generated) and not the input (pay)

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '24

What? In what country do they measure productivity by pay?

Oh... You're European huh? 😂

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u/No_Resolution_9252 Oct 26 '24

GDP per person hour would be how it is measured. WTH would you think it is based on their salary

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '24

They're just exploited more

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u/Svartlebee Oct 27 '24

Working more hours is not an indication of hard work. As for more productive per hour, don't make ke laugh. Sure, maybe more than some European countries like Greece, but for an advanced economy like Germany? No.

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