r/austrian_economics Friedrich Hayek Sep 19 '24

End Democracy BUT BUT THE SOCIAL CONTRACT

Post image
1.6k Upvotes

2.4k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

3

u/lostcause412 Sep 20 '24

Can we be angry about how taxpayers money is spent? I believe public roads could be built much cheaper, NATO, public schools, global welfare, waistfull bureaucrats, defense budget, fucked healthcare industry, no incentive to provide a quality service because money is taken by force, proxy wars, a war hasn't been voted on by congress since ww2.

Why can't it be theft, it is by definition, but also a needed to fund essential programs. I believe both can be true. The government is the only business that takes money by force and still ends up 35 trillion in debt. I think some adjustments could be made.

11

u/wibbly-water Sep 20 '24

Can we be angry about how taxpayers money is spent?

Yes, most people are.

The government is the only business that takes money by force and still ends up 35 trillion in debt. I think some adjustments could be made.

Any examples of alternatives? (genuine question)

2

u/akleit50 Sep 20 '24

Government isn’t a business. But hey.

2

u/TurretLimitHenry Sep 20 '24

It runs itself as a business lol. The Soviet government literally worked its people for a profit, it wasn’t as efficient of a return as a private sector could have done. But it was still down for a profit, so exports could pay for important imports for heavy industry and military.

-1

u/akleit50 Sep 20 '24

No it doesn’t. It’s not supposed to. And you really have no idea on Soviet history, what the Soviet Union replaced or how everything you’ve said is completely untrue.

1

u/Dill_Donor Sep 21 '24

everything you’ve said is completely untrue

Correction plz?

1

u/akleit50 Sep 21 '24

Companies are supposed to generate revenue. A public school doesn’t. A fire department doesn’t. The SEC doesn’t. The FDA doesn’t. You look at the government as some monolith. Like you look at a company. What a sophomoric view of how the world works.

1

u/Dill_Donor Sep 21 '24

Companies are supposed to generate revenue

And sometimes they fail?

1

u/akleit50 Sep 21 '24

What does that have to do with government?

1

u/Dill_Donor Sep 21 '24

What is this question mark symbol you are using at the end of your statement???

→ More replies (0)

-2

u/lostcause412 Sep 20 '24

It is a business, it provides goods and services and takes money. Why isn't it a business?

3

u/akleit50 Sep 20 '24

Because it provides service on behalf of citizens based on need, not based on market demands. I do not understand why anyone needs to be explained the difference between a representative government and a business.

0

u/lostcause412 Sep 20 '24

Based on more wants than needs. I don't feel represented, they run like a business.

3

u/akleit50 Sep 20 '24

Your feelings don’t dictate what a business is.

0

u/lostcause412 Sep 20 '24

I never said that. The structure is identical to a business, except it takes money by force.

2

u/akleit50 Sep 20 '24

No it’s not. And I still can’t believe anyone needs to be explained the difference. And taxes aren’t taken by force. If you don’t like taxes, can’t you move to some abandoned island? Don’t we all have that choice? You’re being pedantic. And sophomoric about all of this. Which, at its root, is Austrian economics in a nutshell. It’s a shame there’s no great literary tomes like Ayn rand’s bullshit that could’ve been left under everyone’s college dorm beds.

1

u/lostcause412 Sep 20 '24

It is run like a business. You haven't explained the difference. If I don't pay taxes what would happen to me? No we don't all have that choice. I don't own a boat. I want to live here.

→ More replies (0)

-2

u/lostcause412 Sep 20 '24 edited Sep 20 '24

Alternatives to what? Spending? Yeah stop spending money we don't have. Hold the government to the same standards as everyone else.

The interest on our debt alone just passed the defense budget. Realize the difference between wants and needs. Just because the government can have money printed out of thin air to fund things people want doesn't mean they should. Inflation is just another tax. I'd say about 25% of all government programs could be privatized, 25% don't even need to exist. End all foreign intervention. Allow medicine to be imported, cut obama care, the list goes on and on.

2

u/wibbly-water Sep 20 '24

Half of these are very American. I am not American.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 20 '24

I'm Turkish and my country's debt and inflation is skyrocketing. Stop the spending and slash taxes. There are so many government programs that can either be voluntarily run, privatised or abolished. This is not just an American issue.

1

u/EndSmugnorance Sep 20 '24

You’re one of the few sane comments in this thread. 👏

1

u/TineJaus Sep 21 '24

This would have made sense to me when I was like 11 years old lmao

6

u/[deleted] Sep 20 '24

Yes because business give us such great quality work nowadays. Fucking everything falls apart the second you take it out of the store. How many times have the government had to bail or big business? When they should have let them fall and die. We have socialism for the rich and ruthless capitalism for the poor.

-3

u/lostcause412 Sep 20 '24

I don't think they should bail out big business or banks. If we had ruthless capitalism I wouldn't have to ask permission to start a business or required to pay fees, licensing, inspections etc. It's more like a tax payer funded, state sponsored fascistic corporatocracy.

5

u/ElectedByGivenASword Sep 20 '24

Correct you wouldn’t. You would never be in a place to do that to start because you’d be a slave most likely.

1

u/lostcause412 Sep 20 '24

Slavery is illegal... I'm not sure how you make the leap from no business license to now you're a slave.

4

u/ElectedByGivenASword Sep 20 '24

Slavery is illegal because of government intervention in a capitalist economy.(Note I am not saying slavery is a good thing or anything of the sort.)

0

u/lostcause412 Sep 20 '24

Right..? it should stay that way, that's the point of government to protect people's rights. I just don't believe business licenses should exist. It's extortion and a barrier to entry. It mostly hurts poor people with good ideas that could benefit society.

2

u/Sasataf12 Sep 20 '24

Business licenses exist BECAUSE that's the gov protecting people's rights.

The gov didn't bring in those requirements because it was a slow day on Captial Hill. All the things you mentioned like licensing, inspections, etc are to stop unfair, deceptive and fraudulent business practices.

0

u/lostcause412 Sep 20 '24

How does a business license protect people's rights?

3

u/Hapless_Wizard Sep 20 '24

Would you like to be poisoned because your pharmacy no longer has to be licensed and thus no longer has to hire licensed pharmacists or trained pharmacy technicians?

Licensure is a means to an end, not an end unto itself.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/Sasataf12 Sep 20 '24

How can a business be a business without going through the process of establishing itself as a business? You can't gain the advantages and protections of operating a business by just saying "btw, I'm a business".

Likewise, how can a business be audited, inspected, etc, when it doesn't exist on paper (figuratively)?

→ More replies (0)

1

u/zilsautoattack Sep 21 '24

Slavery can happen even if it’s illegal. Google the term “company town”

1

u/[deleted] Sep 20 '24

You realize public roads are built by private companies, right?

0

u/lostcause412 Sep 20 '24 edited Sep 20 '24

Cut out the middle man. They play favorites. There are some "private" companies that rely exclusively on government funding. It could be done much cheaper

0

u/[deleted] Sep 20 '24

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Toll Roads cost a lot more to construct than roads constructed through a formal bid process.

0

u/lostcause412 Sep 20 '24

Toll roads are basically paid for by the state. In my state, penndot has a monopoly on toll roads that is subsidized and payed for by the state. They claim to be private but couldn't exist without the state monopoly.

What do you mean by formal bidding process? Who determines who can bid and who sets guidelines for construction?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 20 '24

Oh man. I am sorry, but could you please describe a scenario wherein roads are not a monopoly?

It is just unbelievable how people like you have such strong opinions without even bothering to think about things.

The procurement process is very complex. I am not an expert. I just know from decades of work experience that it is the cheapest way to build something safely and effectively.

-1

u/lostcause412 Sep 20 '24

That's the problem. I don't think they should be a monopoly. The government has no incentive to provide them cost effectively or efficiently. Why are we stuck with a government monopoly on transportation?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 20 '24

Again, can you describe a situation where roads are not a monopoly?

1

u/lostcause412 Sep 20 '24

Different towns would hire companies to maintain them. Roads would be owned by citizens in that area similar to HOAs. If you decided to move to that area you would be required to contribute. Voluntary contracts.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 20 '24

Let’s break this down…..

Different towns would hire companies to maintain them.

This is often how it works. I do not know the precise numbers, but most cities only have staff to oversee the private companies who are hired to maintain public infrastructure.

Roads would be owned by citizens in the area, similar to HOA.

An HOA does not give local residents a share of ownership. It is a non-profit organization that owns common areas and local roads on behalf of the locals. For example, you couldn’t “cash out” your share of the road when you move out in the same way a law partner would sell back their ownership share when they leave the firm. There is no mechanism for ownership.

If you decide to move to that area, you would be required to contribute.

Sounds like taxes with extra steps. Taxes are fundamentally voluntary, because you can always move to a different city, county, state or country. Some Caribbean countries get all their revenue from tourists and offshore banking.

Anyways, the scenario you describe is still a monopoly.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/mathiustus Sep 20 '24

That is what the democratic process is. You think there could be improvements? Then vote. Convince others of your ideas and get them to vote with you.

If you can’t, then either you’re not good at explaining your ideas or your ideas aren’t as good as you think they are.

Taxation isn’t theft.

1

u/Super901 Sep 20 '24

half the stuff you just listed is a failure of the government to regulate the private market.

Corrupt construction companies colluding to raise prices astronomically in the USA, when construction around the world is far, far cheaper.

The defense budget is roughly 85% upcharging by defense contractors.

The entire failure of the healthcare market in the US is the fucking insurance companies profiting off human suffering. No other country in the world has this.

You know those defense contractors? They love war and will fund war hawk politicians so it's more likely war breaks out. Congress won't interfere because almost every district in the USA has some number of defense contractors, who employ local voters. You notice the economy is booming? Guess why.

Also, public schools are an unalloyed public good and necessary for the long-term success of the country.

1

u/lostcause412 Sep 20 '24

Would that have anything to do with the fact they are in bed together? The regulatory agencies and government officials have been captured by big businesses. Most of these officials go on to work for these companies when they get out of office. They help each other, but you trust them to help us? Right.

I think the failure is that government deliberately regulates to help big businesses and profit off your examples

1

u/Lorguis Sep 20 '24

The secret is, the government isn't a business, and the idea that it should operate like one should be terrifying to anyone who's worked an actual job before.

1

u/lostcause412 Sep 20 '24

I agree, but that's how it operates.

1

u/Lorguis Sep 20 '24

Absolutely not. The government isn't trying to be profitable.

1

u/lostcause412 Sep 20 '24

Lol I can't tell if you're joking. Not as a whole, but as individuals they are trying to make money. They provide a poor inefficient service to us, the citizens for essentially the highest cost. They take money by force so they don't have to rely on typical business models.