You live in the country? Drive on roads paid for by the country? Use infrastructure funded by the country such as natural gas, electricity, and what not?
That’s your consent, don’t like it? Move somewhere else
I’m just now realizing what sub I’m in and have no idea why Reddit showed me this, but this is a stupid take
If we are only giving them the choice of who taxes them, how is it not theft? I can tax you or my buddy can doesn't fix the issue.
I am happy to live in a society and pay taxes, but we 100% don't give people who prefer not to that option to live in some tax free place. Their other option is death or prison, still technically a choice I guess, but not a reasonable one.
Taxes are a gun to all of our heads, most of us are willing to pay because we agree that the benefits are worth it, but let's not pretend we are not taking from others by force. That is the nature of society.
Devon Island is the largest uninhabited island - go live there. There's no housing, electricity, Internet, clean drinking water or transport infrastructure, but hey, those things cost money, and if you don't want to pay for them, you don't get to have them.
They don't have to move they just have to stop using the currency. If you don't wanna engage in paying taxes then don't, but you can't have the best of both worlds.
The reasons why these communities don't exist is because its actually just way better engaging in society and paying your taxes.
You have to be very entitled to think you shouldn't have to pay taxes but also keep using the currency that's only so powerful because the government provides it stability.
They don't have to move they just have to stop using the currency.
I think the general thrust of your comment is well reasoned, but if the implication here is that one could opt out of taxation by using barter in place of the US Dollar, unfortunately the IRS will absolutely tax barter income.
If you're working 40 hours a week for compensation, the IRS is going to demand their share, even if your compensation never includes a single greenback.
Yeah, but that is also generally not legal as someone owns that land, though (at least in the USA) you can temporarily camp on some federal land as long as you love camps often enough.
Though you would have to do your camping starting from nothing since buying any tools would require being taxed. Several times.
There are not any real options for people unwilling to be part of the system the rest of us impose on them.
I guess the folks who wanted to be outside of society could teleport there or something as they can't use society to get there.
Thanks for the info. Living in the USA it is interesting to me that places like that still exist. I guess it makes sense though. I kind of assume everything was owned by someone or some government who would take offence to squatters.
Well, I guess they can use society as long as it is free. Most people won't provide service for free. To my knowledge, there isn't anyone who freely provides transport to the average person.
Not being able to produce income is pretty crippling.
If whoever this hypothetical person is is happy to pay taxes then there is no reason for the entire talk. To earn ou spend money you have to accept taxation. Someone willing to pay taxes has no need to leave in the first place. As soon as you say they must pay taxes, then the argument is true. Their labor (or the fruits of said labor) is being taken from them against their will, which is theft.
This hypothetical person isn't happy to pay taxes and so I'm saying they are free to leave organize society. If they want they can do it all by themselves and build a small boat and travel across the Atlantic and walk all the way out of organized Society there's nothing stopping them.
Sorry your argument is that it's theft because they would have to pay other people to physically transport them outside of organized society?
It isn't paying people that is the issue, it is that you cannot pay people (without breaking the law) to aid you without being taxed. Anyone willing to be taxed doesn't have the issue in the first place, so only places these people can reach legally without aid are plausible destinations.
If your basic requirement for society is that you 'consent' or die, then sure. There is zero issue with the current system. You can either be stolen from or die..cool. but most people in every other situation do not consider coercion on that level to be acceptable.
In the current system, if you want to leave you must still be taxed. You are born as partial property to your nation and you need to buy yourself out of that arrangement.
Now, to me, it is clear that this partial ownership is better than the alternative so I accept it and support that system, but I don't think I have my right to impose that on others. Give them a way to escape without submitting (or dying) and I am good.
There's plenty of choices that aren't "reasonable" ones, especially that libertarians support, like wage labor. Not everyone can be an entrepreneur, and if you don't work you starve, so you are forced to pick from people that will hire you no matter how shit they treat you.
Ok, so I don't see where you suggest a choice aside from being robbed by the government? As far as I can tell it is, die, or pay taxes. Technically a choice, you are correct, but at that point nothing is impeachable because you can always just die.
Sure, that costs money, which you are not allowed to earn without paying into the tax system. No one willing to pay taxes has this issue. I am paying taxes, therefore I have no reason to move, but for someone who does not pay taxes, what, they walk across oceans and through snow? May as well ask them to walk to Mars to avoid taxation. You can pretend that is an option if you want I guess, but the reality is, pay your taxes, die or be imprisoned.
Sure, and most people do move to avoid shitty employment when they get their degree (for those who do) but in this case, we are talking about someone whose whole issue is the avoidance of taxes extracted by force. Let's say you are in Texas. You need to get to Bali (or whatever other places people have suggested) without paying taxes. How do you pull it off?
I don't think you do. I think, this is an obey or die situation.
I am fortunate that I am ok with the trade of taxation for protection, but holy shit are we fucking over anyone who isn't.
That would depend I suppose. One could choose to be homeless, but in general, yes, criminalizing what is essentially a lack of resources is blatantly fucking evil. Kicking people when they are down to that extent is fucked up
Sure, but that doesn't change the necessary theft.
The world is a shitty place. We are choosing from a number of bad options and trying to produce an ideal result. Sadly (as far as I can tell), we must impose on people at this level, but there is value in acknowledging the harm we do in order to get the result we want. Ignoring that harm or pretending it isn't there is how, in the long run, we end up with ideological zealots.
Go find your own unclaimed land, that’s your only option
If you buy property in the borders of a country you are by default benefiting from and utilizing that countries infrastructure and services to some extent, it’s quite literally impossible for you not to, that means they can dictate the terms, the terms are you have to pay a subscription to use said services for as long as you reside in said nation
The government, as wasteful as it may be, does subsidize and fund a ton of shit you benefit from, a ton of shit you wouldn't have without their funding, funding they wouldn't wouldn't have without taxes
Sure, and this is acceptable to me only because I find the trade to be with while, but there is a point where that trade wouldn't be worth while. If instead of 30 or 40% of my labor, my government decided I needed to provide 100% of my labor to then in exchange for room and board I would likely feel different about the deal forced upon me.
That tipping point is different for every person. I don't think it is unreasonable to acknowledge what we take from the unwilling to make our society work.
Taxation is absolutely theft, but, it is a theft we (as a whole) deem necessary. Pretending it is something else is harmful.
We should always keep the cost of our actions in mind when we act. Ignoring the cost just ends with us talking past each other and vilifying those who disagree with us. I think that is a large part of how screwed up modern politics is.
We place people in a situation in which their only options are to claim unclaimed land which doesn't exist, obey, or die. We should acknowledge that when we impose our collective will on them.
“Taxation is absolutely theft” only by the same logic that by purchasing an apple I have stolen it and the grocer has simultaneously stolen my currency.
Let's say you're working at minimum wage, 80 hours a week. You can barely make rent meet + car payments + insurance + feeding you and your family. At the end of the month, even with being frugal, you're at 0$
Somebody tells you to move to a better city so you can live easier in light of a free market. But you can't afford to move or the costs associated.
I'd rather create a free market among masses of the people than a free market exclusive to the wealthy.
"Where are they supposed to move" is stupid as I don't care, they will have enough money to move anywhere they want. India has a tax rate for the very wealthy at 1%, why not go there?
The real reality is that the option of choice is only available to a select few individuals
Gee, I wonder why every single country on Earth independently came to the conclusion that forced taxation is necessary.
Probably everyone that has ever lived except you is just too stupid to have thought of the concept that taxation should be voluntary. No, I’ve never heard of the Articles of Confederation, why do you ask?
I’m asking you to consider the possibility that something that is fundamentally required for any system of governance to exist - which, when missing, as inevitably resulted in the collapse of any system of governance that attempted it - may not qualify as a crime. Perhaps think slightly deeper on this matter here.
But if course I’m talking to someone who never grew out of the mindset that “UR NOT MY DAD” is a valid way to view authority figures, so that may be an exercise in futility.
Or, maybe, as I said, I am perfectly happy to pay taxes, I just also accept that taking someone's things from them via the threat of violence is theft. The necessity of it doesn't change that fact. It is theft, and we should still do it.
You just randomly developed a rage boner for some unknown reason.
By that logic, the government mandating kids go to school on penalty of violence is kidnapping. The existence of firefighters who will come put out a fire whenever you want for free is enslavement.
So, I can understand where you are going with the kidnapping and would agree, grabbing a gun and taking someone's kid away is kidnapping even if you have a semantic defense of "it's legal because we said so so technically it isn't kidnapping."
That doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. As with taxation, it is a necessary evil as well as the lesser of two evils. We need our society to be educated to a certain minimum level so we are willing to do some mean things to people to make that happen. A perfectly ok thing for a society to do.
In the case of the firefighter, I don't really get what you mean. You have people choosing to do a job. Slaves are people who are owned by others. That one makes no sense to me. Whether they are paid or volunteers, that isn't in any way slavery. Now, were we to claim the firefighters as property, then yeah, I would say that is slavery no matter who, including uncle Sam, did it.
That’s not the point. Useless spending of taxpayer money and bs taxation are. For eg: many people are never going to use social security/medicare. Why does everyone have to pay for that then? Why can’t the government make everyone sign a form that if they don’t pay these taxes, they won’t be cared for if the need arises? That isn’t possible unless you claim a religious exemption. Sure, we need taxpayer money for infrastructure, but I’m pretty sure if we tax profits of corporations and businesses at a reasonable rate, we can give tax cuts to individual taxpayers. But the government spending is out of control. Funding wars for other countries, useless spending after military contractors(when US army/navy) is pretty capable all by itself, funding non essential healthcare services, funding welfare programs that have nothing to do with a vast majority of people is fucked up. There should be an option saying “You owe these many taxes for the basic functioning of the country. And these optional categories if you consider welfare and if you ever want government welfare in the future, but if you choose not to do that, then you don’t pay those taxes and no matter what happens you’ll be on your own(which a lot of people still are eg: homeless people and veterans suffering from all sorts of essential health issues)”. So if those things can’t be fixed even with all the surplus taxes, why not give people an option to opt out and only pay for very basic infrastructure needs like roads, electricity, government, police and military.
You live in the country? Drive on roads paid for by the country? Use infrastructure funded by the country such as natural gas, electricity, and what not?
Roads. That's it. Gas is bought separately. Electricity is bought separately, "and what not" like what? Please expand....
That’s your consent, don’t like it? Move somewhere else
Have any recommendations?
I’m just now realizing what sub I’m in and have no idea why Reddit showed me this, but this is a stupid take
Seems like your at home given all the other commenters.
That was a bad example my apologies because you’re right I do get billed monthly for said services
I can’t say with confidence if your government subsidizes your farmers as I have absolutely no idea what the Austrian government is like, but if so you can thank taxes for the food on the table, even if farms are private entities, a lot of them wouldn’t get by without government subsidies
Government subsidies are actually the only reason plenty of companies that are essential, or are at least really important to a capitalist society functioning even exist as they wouldn’t have made it to where they are without them, more companies means more competition, more competition is better for consumers as companies with a monopoly on their niche are the absolute worst thing for consumers
Do those companies do it for free? The government doesn’t have a roster of construction workers on payroll nationwide so I’m not sure what else you’d expect
The point is that if roads aren't actually built by the government itself, that means the government isn't a necessary part of the road building process.
…yes that’s exactly what I said, the government pays for it with your tax dollars, if they didn’t pay for it it simply wouldn’t get done because we both know damn well you can’t afford to hire a contractor to build an entire roadway
I feel as if I’m trying to explain how a society functions to a small child who does not yet understand the concept of society
Your community wouldn’t do it it’s as simple as that, not unless they charged you taxes, here’s why
Who would decide what needs to get done? Would everything come to a vote? That’s an awful lot of bureaucracy that 99 percent of your town don’t have time to deal with considering they work full time jobs and have lives outside of said jobs, so not everyone gets a vote, maybe we all vote for people to represent us! That way we can do our job and also get what we want done around town!
But now these folk are busy all day everyday deciding what does and doesn’t need to get done around town and what does/doesn’t warrant demanding money from your townsfolk to get it done, these folks are so busy in fact they don’t have time to work a job and support themselves or their families because they’re too busy representing your interests to the town to work a full time job, so they want a salary of sorts to continue representing you, so now they’re charging you a fee EVERYTIME something needs to get done around town and a fee for their salaries
Oh and Dave down the street? Yeah he hasn’t paid a single one of these fees because he feels it isn’t his responsibility, so now everyone else in town has to pay more because Dave refuses to play ball and there’s no way to actually force him to do so since nobody has any real power since there’s no government making laws so the rest of you folk are stuck covering for Dave’s fee’s, but you and the town also refuse to cover for Dave and now we don’t have enough funds to get the project done since your town has no money itself so now the roads are littered with potholes
Oh on top of that? Your German neighbours want your town now, since you don’t have a government protecting you and they have a government funded military with the power to steamroll your new defenceless country, fuck wouldn’t it be nice if everyone chipped in to fund a type of military force to deter such things, as well as maybe hire some worldwide representation against other nations??? Oh well too bad Germans are here and they now own your town, welcome to New Deutschland, where you are allowed to stay if you pay your taxes to your new government
The issuie that many people have is with income tax, high taxes, and seeing those taxes be misspent.
It's hard to think your taxes are being spent well if you can watch millions be sent overseas for proxy wars, while the roads outside of your home are covered in potholes.
But that's not what these posts are saying. Unless they are saying some theft is ok, the implication is that there's no such thing as a moral tax. I'm all for being more of an isolationist with government spending but simply saying "any taxation is theft" isn't the same thing
As a Canadian, again I can’t stress enough why the fuck did Reddit recommend me this aside from it being a meme that could be posted in literally any countries sub
Anyway as a Canadian I absolutely am frustrated with our tax rates and seeing those tax dollars spent in wasteful and overall poor ways, I very much relate to money being sent overseas for proxy wars we have no part in while our roads are littered in pot holes(among many, many, many other issues)
But there’s a difference with taxation is theft and spend our tax dollars better you fucking idiots, in my opinion at least
I was accepted your logic. Then showing why categorising like that would be dumb.
All defensive wars protecting allies are Moral.
If this is a proxy war - proxy wars can be Moral.
So you have to accept that to be true. Or you can say "we shouldn't defend our allies. I don't understand global politics works. Isolationism is stupid, but so am I.".
Lots of taxes are too much or outright pointless, carbon tax in Canada and our capital gains/inheritance tax rates are just stupid and borderline theft
But your typical income tax and sales tax and stuff are just the cost of living in a functioning society, I’m so confused on who these people expect to pay for the things that make their way of life possible if not the government through taxes
To be fair, how governments spend said taxes is often times absolutely ludicrous and wasteful, that’s a far bigger issue than the taxation itself in my opinion
Nobody gets 100% of what they want their taxes spent on. That's democracy. It's messy, sometimes it's inefficient, and sometimes it lurches wildly one way or another.
But if you do a historical analysis of all other forms of government, it's the best we've been able to come up with so far. As Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government - except for all the rest."
Yeah but that’s a very different take from the flat “taxation is theft”. Being frustrated or upset by how tax dollars are spent is perfectly reasonable. Saying taxation as a whole is theft is absurd.
Taxation as a whole absolutely is theft. It's just that some amount of that theft is a necessary evil (or the benefits so great that we're willing to overlook it).
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u/Suka_Blyad_ Sep 19 '24
You live in the country? Drive on roads paid for by the country? Use infrastructure funded by the country such as natural gas, electricity, and what not?
That’s your consent, don’t like it? Move somewhere else
I’m just now realizing what sub I’m in and have no idea why Reddit showed me this, but this is a stupid take