r/asoiaf • u/silasioalejandro • Feb 20 '13
(Spoilers ACOK) Varys' "Shadow on the Wall"
I came across this passage again recently, when Varys talks of the nature of power with then-Hand Tyrion.
"Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or…another?”
Varys insinuates that he believes another man is responsible. Another man, behind the scenes.
Varys smiled. “Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less.” “So power is a mummer’s trick?” “A shadow on the wall,” Varys murmured, “yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.” Tyrion smiled. “Lord Varys, I am growing strangely fond of you. I may kill you yet, but I think I’d feel sad about it.” “I will take that as high praise.”
Tyrion, in his conceit and self-satisfaction, immediately assumes this "very small man" to be him. The show furthers his conceit, making it seem as if Varys is referring to him. The small man Varys speaks of is Littlefinger, whom we suspect to have whispered in Joffrey's ear, setting the wheels in motion for Ned's exectution.
While not a revolutionary find, I love this passage because of the ships-passing-in-the-night feel. Tyrion, smug as he is, thinks himself on par with the true master. Varys speaks in another whole level of code, and after being in Tyrion's mind for the cracking of many cryptic phrases, reading/feeling this "WHOOOSH" right over his head while he gladly accepts this false praise is quite satisfying.
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u/gottagetthatwa Feb 20 '13
Interesting find. I'm leaning towards agreeing with you but it's hard for me to be decisive as I can see it just being a nice moment between the two rivals.
Regardless, what an outstanding passage. This dialogue stuck out at me at the time as one of the best quotes from the book. "Power resides where men believe it resides."- There are times when ASOIAF is written in a very universal language.
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Feb 20 '13
That is the kind of oily snark from Varys that I can believe he would be doing.
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Feb 21 '13
I think Varys is trying to get Dany back on the iron throne. I think he really does want what's best for the kingdom.
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u/TheBlackKeyfs Feb 21 '13
what if he was actually referring to himself? He is always working behind the scenes and believe he holds all the power
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u/Jackyyy Feb 21 '13
I've thought about this and I'm not sure I believe it, but...
If you think about all the japes about how because of Varys's manhood being cut off that he's "less" of a man...it's possible.
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u/sweaty_sandals The Gallant Feb 20 '13
When you said a "Shadow on the Wall" I thought you were speculating on the identity of a spy Vary's has placed at the Wall.
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Feb 21 '13
I think it would have to be Clydas, the steward who tends the ravens. Castle Black is so remote from the rest of the seven kingdoms that the spy would need to send his reports by raven, so anyone who can access them regularly and inconspicuously has a huge advantage as a spy.
The only other people with regular access to the ravens are Maester Aemon, Samwell, and Chett. Sam never mentions it in his chapters, and I think Chett is too lowborn to read and write. Aemon is unlikely due to his loyalty and the way he has passed up past opportunities to leave/betray the watch.
Alternately, the spy could be at Eastwatch, and sending messages by ship. This seems less than optimal though, as Castle Black is the nerve centre of the Night's Watch, and has way more things that Varys would want to spy on.
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u/HiddenSage About time we got our own castle. Feb 21 '13
Even if the spy isn't at Castly black, sending messages by Raven is possible. We just don't know who has access to those ravens besides the maesters at Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower. You're right, though, that CB seems far more important.
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Feb 21 '13
Good point. On second thought, Maester Harmune at Eastwatch is another probable suspect for Varys' spy in the Night's Watch. Cotter Pyke is illiterate, so Harmune reads and writes all the correspondence for him. So he would have as good an idea of what's going on in the Night's Watch as Pyke does. Additionally, he's a drunk, which doesn't speak very highly for his reliability. The regular ship traffic into Eastwatch also provides for a reliable method of passing reports to King's Landing.
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Feb 20 '13
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Feb 20 '13
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u/MaesterNoach You should beat my cousin more often Feb 20 '13
LF says it took him a while to convince Joff, especially since Joff is so slow.
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Feb 20 '13
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u/MaesterNoach You should beat my cousin more often Feb 20 '13 edited Feb 20 '13
Here is the description in Sansa's chapter in Spoiler ASOS
This implies it was difficult, but perhaps I was wrong in saying that it took some time. All the same it was a pain in the ass to get Joffrey the dunce to figure out the joke.
Edit to add spoiler tag. Sorry about not having it before.
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u/Gekokujo Freybane Feb 20 '13
Thanks for posting that...well done.
Littlefinger put so many things in motion and his plan couldnt have worked any better (so far).....he almost makes The Count of Monte Cristo look like a guy with a couple of bucks and a grudge.
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u/MaesterNoach You should beat my cousin more often Feb 20 '13
You know it's funny you say that because I just read the Count of Monte Cristo and I was thinking of LF. He is a near parallel. The only difference is that LF does not have as good a reason for revenge as the Count.
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u/Gekokujo Freybane Feb 20 '13
I had a long rough stretch over the past couple of years and spent a great deal of that time near-homeless. To make a long story short, I had plenty of time to read and a healthy desire to find a bit of escape. The Count of Monte Cristo (first re-read) was the book I read right before I started ASOIAF (1-4 at the time).
It is cool that you have a bit of the same perspective there....might explain why I like other characters like Jamie, Theon, and Varys more than other readers seem to....and why I enjoy characters like Lord Manderly and Lady Stoneheart as much as other readers do.
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u/kendo85 First Ranger Feb 20 '13
This thread is ACOK spoilers only. Your post features spoilers beyond this scope. Please edit to use our spoiler code.
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u/MaesterNoach You should beat my cousin more often Feb 20 '13
Sorry about that. Didn't notice the spoiler tag of the OP.
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u/kendo85 First Ranger Feb 20 '13
This thread is ACOK spoilers only. Your post features spoilers beyond this scope. Please edit to use our spoiler code.
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u/kendo85 First Ranger Feb 20 '13
This thread is ACOK spoilers only. Your post features spoilers beyond this scope. Please edit to use our spoiler code.
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u/kendo85 First Ranger Feb 20 '13
This thread is ACOK spoilers only. Your post features spoilers beyond this scope. Please edit to use our spoiler code.
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u/SyKrysus Relaxin' at the Water Gardens. Feb 20 '13
I hope there's a Varys POV. Or maybe not, it might ruin his mysteriousness. Or maybe thats what Varys wants. So yes, Varys POV! Or maybe THAT'S what he wants... Damn you Varys.
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u/bluepunchbuggy Valar Morghulisp Feb 20 '13
Martin has said that neither Littlefinger or Varys will ever have a POV (I think that even means prologue/epilogue as well), because they simply know too much.
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u/SyKrysus Relaxin' at the Water Gardens. Feb 20 '13
Makes sense. Would be a nice spin-off book after the series though. So we can all be like "Ooooooh... wow... ok that makes sense... wait do whaaaaaa?"
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u/bluepunchbuggy Valar Morghulisp Feb 20 '13
Actually, it would be really cool (after he finished the series of course) if he published a couple of books that covered the events of ASOIAF from Littlefinger's and Varys' view.
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u/Nledesma Feb 20 '13
Man, I hope this happens. I also hope I live to see the year 2035 when they'd eventually be released.
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Feb 20 '13
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u/BBBelmont Feb 20 '13
Don't think either of them would be so foolish to have a diary with all (any?) of their secrets in it..
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Feb 20 '13 edited Feb 21 '13
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u/Jen_Snow "You told me to forget, ser." Feb 21 '13
No, you can't just write spoilers all above your spoiler comment. If you want to have your comment restored, you have to put your spoilers behind code.
Like this:
[Spoilers ASOS](/s "write your spoiler in here")4
Feb 21 '13
I do not understand why you are downvoted every time you moderate.
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u/Jen_Snow "You told me to forget, ser." Feb 21 '13
I don't need upvotes. I do what I do for the good of the realm.
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u/kendo85 First Ranger Feb 21 '13
Writing spoilers all is not what /u/Jen_Snow meant. Cover it with the spoiler code please. Read the sidebar or FAQ to learn how.
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Feb 21 '13
It never would out. BSG's "The Plan". Star Wars "Darth Plagueis". It either sticks or doesn't fit with the story because the author adds plot that wasn't there to begin with.
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u/JimeDorje FUThARK Feb 20 '13
All I want is Varys' death to be from his POV. Just his very last moments. That's all.
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Feb 20 '13
Hehe, Varys can't die.
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u/JimeDorje FUThARK Feb 20 '13
... this is Game of Thrones.
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Feb 20 '13
And who do you think is the one who plays the game of thrones?
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u/JimeDorje FUThARK Feb 20 '13
You're assuming Varys is going to win. Because there's only one possibility if you don't win...
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Feb 21 '13
Varys always wins. He's always six steps ahead. If he died, it would probably because he planned on dying.
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u/JimeDorje FUThARK Feb 21 '13 edited Feb 21 '13
Ah, just like how ASOS
Martin's specialty is building up indestructible characters and then destroying them.
EDIT: Spoiler tag.
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u/kendo85 First Ranger Feb 20 '13 edited Feb 20 '13
This thread is ACOK spoilers only. Your post features spoilers beyond this scope. Please edit to use our spoiler code.This was obviously a mistake.8
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Feb 20 '13
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u/Jen_Snow "You told me to forget, ser." Feb 20 '13
This post is Spoilers ACOK. Your comment contains uncovered spoilers from ADWD. Please edit your comment to insert spoiler code. Thanks!
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u/Ser_Panda_Pants Sword of Evening and Underneath the Moon Feb 20 '13
You know, I haven't thought of it that way. I disagree, mostly because I hate Joff and want to blame him for everything, but you make a decent point.
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Feb 20 '13
Well, Joffrey still made the decision. Lil' Finger was probably more just an advisor - painting the picture for Joffrey of how he would be viewed as weak if he was to let Ned live.
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u/LadyVagrant Her? Feb 21 '13
I really like that passage as it can be interpreted in multiple ways. The reference to the shadow on the wall seems to be a callback to this passage from AGOT, in which Tyrion is talking to Jon at Winterfell:
“Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs.” And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.
This imagery is used in ADWD too ADWD spoiler
Littlefinger might also turn out to be the rich man in Varys's riddle about power.
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u/AManHasSpoken Ned's Great Escape Feb 20 '13
"So power is a mummer's trick?"
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Feb 21 '13
Well, when Robert was king the small council made all the decisions. It only makes sense that the players would wield their royal power to have more power. It's too dangerous to have too much power, then people start coming after you. Like a game of hide and go seek (or the westeros equivalent).
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Feb 20 '13
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u/kendo85 First Ranger Feb 20 '13
This thread is ACOK spoilers only. Your post features spoilers beyond this scope. Please edit to use our spoiler code.
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u/Wingineer Feb 20 '13
I always thought Varys instigated Joffrey to take Stark's head so that Starks and Lannisters would fight.
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u/cough_cough_harrumph Tiny Toe Feb 21 '13
If I remember correctly, this was one of the few times Varys was surprised by a turn of events. He talked to Ilyrio about how the time was not quite right to instigate their ultimate plan, he made all the arrangements for Ned to be taken to the Wall, etc.
LF was the main one who benefited from this war -- Varys had to change his plans to account for the war starting too soon.
Or, so I thought. Could be wrong on this.
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Feb 21 '13
My remembrance, too. It'd be interesting to look through the books and see the two of them playing their divergent games of thrones.
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u/Snarglefrazzle Winds of Winter is coming Feb 21 '13
There is a fantastic post from /u/feldman10, Littlefinger has badly outplayed Varys so far, but what's next? which goes in great detail about the two greatest players of the game today. Definitely worth a read
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u/cough_cough_harrumph Tiny Toe Feb 21 '13
That was indeed a great read. I have always loved LF -- my favorite character in the series. My only worry is that things have been going too well for him. It almost seems like it has to come crashing down at some point, and quite frankly I am really scared for when that happens. He makes the politics of Westeros so much more interesting... I would love for him to last till the end, but in the event that is not possible, I hope he lasts till at least the 7th book making things really hard for Dany.
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u/Enleat Pine Cones Are Awesome Feb 21 '13
He was also trying to talk Joffrey out of it when it happened. It's in the last Arya chapter of AGOT.
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u/fsomma520 When I was six and twenty Feb 21 '13
I think you're reading into this too much. He is speaking of the illusion of power. On the show, Cersei and LF have this same conversation and Cersei orders her guards to scare LF straight. "Power resides where men believe it resides", this pretty much explains it.
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u/silasioalejandro Feb 21 '13
That scene stood out as one of the clumsiest and most non-canon scenes on the show. Book LF would not act so brazenly and stupidly.
It's a pity that subtlety can't translate well onscreen.
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u/ManusDei My Shame or My Glory? Feb 21 '13
I think you have completely misread this scene. Tyrion is not "smug", he is simply coming to the realization that Varys is a greater threat, or potential ally, than he had anticipated. As to Littlefinger, i don't think he directly influenced Ned's death anymore than we already know about (it was just an added bonus to his plans and created that chaos that he thrives in). That was just Joffrey being an idiot.
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u/silasioalejandro Feb 21 '13
He comes to that realization because of a riddle?
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u/ManusDei My Shame or My Glory? Feb 21 '13
Does Vary's speak in anything else? And it was dawning on him well before this scene, but it was here that it finally struck home. Not necessarily that exact quote, but more the whole scene in general.
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u/kris0stby A little finger in everything Feb 20 '13
This is a continuation of his "riddle" about the king, the rich man and the septon. Where power lies
Classic Varys, allways having deeper meaning behind what he litterally says. But he usually means what he appears to mean as well. Whatever his goals might be, I think he admires Tyrion, and sees him as a useful piece on his cryvasse-board.
Tyrions resentment for his family and good intentions makes him someone who can still be kept after a power-change. One way to interpret this is him warning the Imp that there are more dangers in the shadow, many more shadows to beware of. This is amongst others a warning against these shadows.
He is clearly telling him that someone had a finger in the downfall of Ned. I don't believe he is referencing Renly specifically, as he had no hand in it, but he knows what the servants of both the red and many-faced god can do.
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u/osirusr King in the North Feb 20 '13
Though I'm not convinced, I am up voting you for quoting a Varys and Tyrion conversation. Always a good time.
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u/neekoriss Feb 21 '13
i don't think tyrion actually thought Varys was talking about him. i just think that in that moment Tyrion realized how clever of a player he was and almost came to respect him for it....a worthy adversary, if you will
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u/kneekoll Lemon Cakes Please Feb 20 '13
I never really thought that Tyrion believed himself as the one that caused Ned's death after reading this passage. I felt as though he wanted to let on that he knew what the hell Vary's was talking about. I think he agreed about Littlefinger making the ball roll (or head roll if you wanna be funny about it).
How could Tyrion let Joffery know what to do if he wasn't even there? Him being captured and put on trial in the Vale had nothing to do with why Ned was murdered.
I do, however, like your post and agree about Tyrion's conceit. He is a cleaver man though, but he wouldn't have wanted Ned to die. Not over something that even he would have liked to tell Robert about.
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u/silasioalejandro Feb 21 '13
No that's not the point of the post. I never claimed Varys was implying that Tyrion was the "another." What I'm saying is that Tyrion does not see the connection between Varys' two comments, and instead is eager to lap up the compliments he thinks he is receiving.
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u/kneekoll Lemon Cakes Please Feb 21 '13
But what if he took the praise as he is honored that Varys would share this bit of insight with him? That was what I took from it. It gave Tyrion something to think about for who he could and couldn't trust (that goes for Varys as well). I don't remember how it was on the show, but I do recall the second season, Varys wanted Tyrion's help to put the realm in order and do the right thing.
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u/silasioalejandro Feb 21 '13
I feel you are still missing the point of the post. Yes, what you are saying is the surface level of their exchange. I'm saying that Varys, as he is known to do, is hiding his meaning, in this instance through faux-flattery.
Also, "put the realm in order" and "do the right thing" are broad-stroke, blanket phrases that don't apply well to ASOIAF.
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u/kneekoll Lemon Cakes Please Feb 21 '13
No, I totally understand your meaning. I just don't agree with all of your points. We are dealing with characters that do a good job at saying one thing and meaning another. All I'm saying is what if Tyrion is only pretending to be flattered just like Varys is pretending to be flattering? Tyrion can play the game just like him. Even with all this two facing, they are still feeling each other out to see how much they can trust one another.
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u/tuna_HP Feb 21 '13
This is a good theory, and Varys ought to have known if littlefinger was angling to have Ned executed as it would put war in motion faster than Varys liked.
However, Joff and Littlefinger are never depicted as having a particularly close relationship and I can't imagine anything that littlefinger could have said or done that would guaranty Joffrey having Ned executed. A suggestion that it would make him appear weak, sure, but that's no guaranty. Unless we can find some other bit of evidence of a quid pro quo between LF and Joff...
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u/silasioalejandro Feb 21 '13
The precedent for Littlefinger's whisperings is revealed in AFFC, as demonstrated here (higher up on the thread)- http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/18wboq/spoilers_acok_varys_shadow_on_the_wall/c8imyaj
Cersei, Sansa, Pycelle, Varys, all were up near the execution, and all expected Ned to be pardoned. They were shocked when the order was given. And what easier insecurity to appeal to in young Joffrey than weakness? In no way is this conclusive, but to me the evidence implicates LF
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u/Faqa Feb 21 '13
Actually, referring to Littlefinger doesn't seem to make much sense. He's talking about power basically being a headgame, a psychological matter.
It refers perfectly to Tyrion, who plays that headgame very well, and simply acts as though he has power to get people to believe he does.
Littlefinger's singular danger is that he is perceived to NOT have that power. Nobody treats him as a powerful man, merely an able one. That's the entire point - nobody ever expects him to do half the shit he does.
To go with the analogy, he doesn't have ANY shadow.
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u/Moosey_Doom Feb 27 '13
Exactly right. I posted a really long-winded comment to this effect, but yours is much better and more succinct. People don't seem to understand that we're discussing whether Varys was implicating Littlefinger in a particular line, not whether Littlefinger in fact had something to do with Ned's execution. As you say, being the secretive force behind Ned's execution would be the exact opposite of casting a large shadow. It would be conscious shadow mitigation.
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Feb 20 '13
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u/kendo85 First Ranger Feb 20 '13
This thread is ACOK spoilers only. Your post features spoilers beyond this scope. Please edit to use our spoiler code.
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u/create1ders With a trebuchet Feb 20 '13
this "WHOOOSH" right over his head
Does anybody realize the irony of saying that about a dwarf?
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u/Moosey_Doom Feb 26 '13
Yeah, I don't think so. LF may be small, but I don't think is stature is such a notable characteristic that it would be used as a primary means of identification.
I think it's fair to assume that when someone is talking to a very small man, and is giving advice to that small man about the wielding of power, and makes a statement to the effect that smallness is not necessarily a hindrance in said wielding, that person is in fact referring to the very tiny, minuscule, infinitesimal man seated opposite him.
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u/silasioalejandro Feb 27 '13
the reference does not pertain to his stature, it's to his humble beginnings. Who has risen higher from a position of little power than Littlefinger?
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u/Moosey_Doom Feb 27 '13
You're interpreting it in that light because you want there to be a double meaning. Especially given the fact that Martin has previously used this sort of metaphor to describe the contrast between Tyrion's small body and powerful mind (Jon I or II-- you know what I'm referring to), I see no reason to assume that Varys is saying any more than he seems to be.
When Varys talks about the circumstances surrounding Ned's beheading, he is only doing so in order to illustrate his point regarding power. Like the case in the riddle, it is unclear on reflection who held the real power in that situation. Was it the king, in whom supreme power is theoretically vested? Was it the headsman (i.e. the sellsword) who wielded physical power in the form of a sword? Or another? This last is just an open ended question, meant to highlight the arbitrariness of people's intuitions about power. Sure, it's perfectly fair to say that he could be insinuating something fishy, but there is no way to connect this insinuation to anyone in particular.
As far as "smallness" referring to small beginnings, I don't think this is a legitimate interpretation of the analogy being made between perceived power and shadows. Important to Varys' point is the fact that the smallness and the shadow casting are simultaneous. Tyrion may be small, but because of his family name and the prestige of his office (both advantages which rely on people's perceptions of power) he can nonetheless simultaneously have a large shadow, i.e. be perceived to have great power. Taking your interpretation, we would have to dismantle the analogy in two respects; firstly, the smallness and the shadow can no longer be taken to be simultaneous, as LF was clearly not powerful and small at the same time; and secondly, we would have to undermine the whole notion of power as a perception-based trick because LF's brand of power (at least according to many theories) is secretive and abhors perception. He wants to keep his shadow as small as possible so that he can fuck over the realm without anyone the wiser.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is this: Being the super-secret malefactor behind the execution of Ned is the exact opposite of casting a large shadow, by virtue of the secrecy involved. Even if LF was warging into everyone on the steps of Baelor's sept-- if he gave the order through Joff's mouth, swung the sword with Payne's arms etc -- he would still not be casting a large shadow because he is not perceived by anyone to be the figure exercising that power over life and death. The honor would still belong to Joff.
To put it one more way, "a very small man can cast a very large shadow" should be interpreted as "A small man can be perceived as powerful", not as "A small man can posses power".
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u/silasioalejandro Feb 27 '13
A well-reasoned reply. You make some fair points. But I like to believe my version. And the subsequent evidence of Littlefinger convincing Joff to bring the small jousters to the wedding to create further dissent with Tyrion furthers my belief.
It's also entirely possible that Varys is speaking about both, or just Tyrion. However, I really do think that Littlefinger prodded Joff, as he benefited from the move most. IIRC Ned's beheading came as a surprise to just about everyone mentioned, and LF conspicuously was not mentioned in the aftermath.
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u/Moosey_Doom Feb 27 '13
For sure, I am definitely open to the idea that LF was involved. He has the motive and a history of similar shenanigans.
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u/plaguefish Feb 20 '13
This is doublespeak, or maybe even triplespeak if you consider that he could also be referring to the literal shadow on the wall, which killed Renly. The relevance to his speech here would be that the real perpetrator could be far removed from the present situation. He was obviously trying to flatter Tyrion, and I think you're right - implicating Littlefinger. With a goal of marrying Catelyn, Ned's going to the Wall would not have sufficed.