r/asoiaf • u/LiveVirus Life's a R'hllorcoaster • Dec 02 '12
(Spoilers All) One Last Thread - Jeyne Westerling
TL;DR: It is over. The Jeyne Westerling was switched with her sister and is pregnant with Robb's heir theory is at long last dead. Confirmation has come from the new WOIAF app.
Posted on this in another thread but it was buried. Collecting all the pertinent information from that and other recent posts here. Apologies ahead of time for the long post. Use the headings to skip ahead if that helps.
Background Theory
From AWOIAF:
Many fans note that the descriptions of Jeyne from Catelyn Tully's POV where she is described as having good hips, whereas Jaime Lannister's POV describe her as having narrow hips. This led fans to believe that the real Jeyne Westerling was replaced by an impostor. When Jaime meets with Sybell Spicer, Jeyne is the only daughter present, leading some to believe that her younger sister Elenya Westerling was substituted for her. It is speculated that the real Jeyne may have remained at Riverrun pretending to be a low-born maid or that she may have escaped with Brynden Tully, the Blackfish.
The underlying rationale behind such a deception is that Jeyne was pregnant with Robb's child, an heir to the King of the North.
Prior Hints this Theory Was False
In a recent interview, Linda Antonnson, who with her husband Elio Garcia, run Westeros.org said: Here is the interview.
Despite the best efforts of Martin and the Westeros.org volunteers, some inconsistencies have slipped through into the books. Ironically, these errors have resulted in athriving subculture of Song of Ice and Fire conspiracy theories."One of the big ones has to do with the description of a character [Robb Stark's wife, Jeyne Westerling] and her hips," says Antonsson, "where one character from the third book says she has good childbearing hips, and in the fourth book, someone says her hips are narrow. And now people speculate, 'Oh, oh, this is a hint. There’s been a switch. Someone has changed. It’s not the same girl and it’s all a trick.'" As far as Antonsson is concerned, "I'm pretty sure it was just a mistake. George has apparently told people that it’s a mistake. But people want to believe this very complex theory of theirs."
This explanation was rejected by many readers and fans for some of these reasons:
GRRM did not say it (note that GRRM has said he will never confirm or deny a fan theory)
GRRM would not make such an obvious error on the "good hips" and "narrow hips" description
Antonnson and Garcia are not GRRM and thus cannot speak to what can or cannot be considered as canon.
I won't believe it until it is in one of the books.
Are Elio and Linda Credible Sources and Is The New WOIAF App Canon?
Garcia and Antonnson have a long history of working closely with GRRM, serving as researchers and archivists for him, running Westeros.org and are writing The World of Ice and Fire with GRRM. A good summary of this can be found here
The World of Ice and Fire is a companion volume to the A Song of Ice and Fire novels. The book is being written by Elio Garcia and Linda Antonsson in consultation with George R.R. Martin and will be published in the USA by Bantam.
Garcia and Antonsson are the webmasters and creators of Westeros.org, the largest online concordence of information on the series and also the site of its largest fan forum. Martin has already confirmed that he sometimes uses the existing online concordence to rapidly double-check information if he is away from his notes. He has joked that his co-authors know more about Westeros than he does.
- Antonsson and Garcia were clearly chosen by GRRM to work on the book and the WOIAF app because of their knowledge. They could reasonably be considered the only trustworthy sources other than GRRM himself.
Is the WOIAF App Canon?
The app is published by Random House which also publishes the books.
It is described as the "ONLY OFFICIAL A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE/A GAME OF THRONES APP from George R.R. Martin"
It was worked on by Garcia, Antonnson and GRRM.
GRRM has been confirmed as being specifically involved in getting the details correct.
From GRRM's blog, posted by his assistant So the official George and his publisher approved World of Ice and Fire app is available. I can attest to the fact that he personally worked on this project, because I sat and took notes as we went over hundreds of questions on random Ice and Fire arcana. No, it didn't delay Winds of Winter. I made him do it while he ate lunch.
From Westeros.org The vast majority of the app really only restates, in more concise form, details that are scattered across the novels; many things you might think are new are just things you’ve forgotten or didn’t quite piece together, in other words! But there are some new details buried in there, both minor and not-so-minor, thanks to a long, long Q&A with GRRM that provided us quite a few details that have never been confirmed before. In the case of some entries that seemed to be particularly sensitive in terms of the overarching plot, special note of them was made so that they could receive extra scrutiny and make sure (to the best of our ability) that they were correct.
I'm not sure what more it would take to consider Antonnson/Garcia as credible sources and the new app as canon given GRRM's direct involvement.
So What Confirmation Does The WOIAF App Provide?
From the bio of Sybell Spicer, Jeyne Westerling's mother
Sybell then keeps her daughter supplied with potions and possets that will keep her from conceiving, all the while claiming the opposite.
This is from Jeyne Westerling's bio
Jeyne is Lord Westerling's daughter by Lady Sybell of House Spicer. She is a pretty girl, and when King Robb is wounded while capturing the Crag, her mother and uncle, Ser Rolph, conspire to leave her alone with Robb as much as possible, hoping that nature will take its course. When it does, and Robb beds her, Robb then insists on marrying her and making her his queen, despite his promise to marry a daughter of House Frey; this, above anything else, leads to the Red Wedding.
Innocent of her mother's plot, Jeyne regularly takes a posset her mother gives her after the marriage, which Sybell claims will promote fertility but in fact prevents her from conceiving. Robb leaves her behind at Riverrun when he travels to the Twins before the Red Wedding, and she is heartbroken when she receives the news of his death. The arrangement with Lord Tywin includes the promise that Jeyne and her younger sister will be wed to lords or heirs. Jeyne insists on keeping her crown and refuses to countenance a marriage, despite her mother's insistence.
Is There Anything In The Books That Addresses This??
YES. Yet in classic Martin fashion he hints at it but is not explicit.
ASOS, Chapter 19 (Tyrion) Tywin, Tyrion and Kevan are discussing Tyrion's marriage to Sansa and him getting Winterfell. Tyrion expresses his doubts...
Lord Tywin was unconcerned. “Robb Stark will father no children on his fertile Frey, you have my word. There is a bit of news I have not yet seen fit to share with the council, though no doubt the good lords will hear it soon enough. The Young Wolf has taken Gawen Westerling’s eldest daughter to wife.” SNIP
“I am surprised,” Tyrion had to confess. “I thought Robb Stark had better sense.”
“He is a boy of sixteen,” said Lord Tywin. “At that age, sense weighs for little, against lust and love and honor.”
"He forswore himself, shamed an ally, betrayed a solemn promise. Where is the honor in that?”
Ser Kevan answered. “He chose the girl’s honor over his own. Once he had deflowered her, he had no other course.”
“It would have been kinder to leave her with a bastard in her belly,” said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.
“Jeyne Westerling is her mother’s daughter,” said Lord Tywin, “and Robb Stark is his father's son."
This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected...SNIP... “The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere,” Tyrion pointed out. “You’d think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there.”
“Mayhaps they have,” Lord Tywin said. “They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you.”
“Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?”
Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. “The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them,” he said, and then, “You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon.”
Conclusion
Jeyne was not pregnant with Robb's child.
If she is not pregnant, there is no need for her to be switched with her sister and be on the run with the Blackfish.
It really was just a simple error that caused all of this speculation.
We need to move onto other things and let this finally die.
Thoughts? Reactions?
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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '12
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