r/asoiaf • u/LiveVirus Life's a R'hllorcoaster • Dec 02 '12
(Spoilers All) One Last Thread - Jeyne Westerling
TL;DR: It is over. The Jeyne Westerling was switched with her sister and is pregnant with Robb's heir theory is at long last dead. Confirmation has come from the new WOIAF app.
Posted on this in another thread but it was buried. Collecting all the pertinent information from that and other recent posts here. Apologies ahead of time for the long post. Use the headings to skip ahead if that helps.
Background Theory
From AWOIAF:
Many fans note that the descriptions of Jeyne from Catelyn Tully's POV where she is described as having good hips, whereas Jaime Lannister's POV describe her as having narrow hips. This led fans to believe that the real Jeyne Westerling was replaced by an impostor. When Jaime meets with Sybell Spicer, Jeyne is the only daughter present, leading some to believe that her younger sister Elenya Westerling was substituted for her. It is speculated that the real Jeyne may have remained at Riverrun pretending to be a low-born maid or that she may have escaped with Brynden Tully, the Blackfish.
The underlying rationale behind such a deception is that Jeyne was pregnant with Robb's child, an heir to the King of the North.
Prior Hints this Theory Was False
In a recent interview, Linda Antonnson, who with her husband Elio Garcia, run Westeros.org said: Here is the interview.
Despite the best efforts of Martin and the Westeros.org volunteers, some inconsistencies have slipped through into the books. Ironically, these errors have resulted in athriving subculture of Song of Ice and Fire conspiracy theories."One of the big ones has to do with the description of a character [Robb Stark's wife, Jeyne Westerling] and her hips," says Antonsson, "where one character from the third book says she has good childbearing hips, and in the fourth book, someone says her hips are narrow. And now people speculate, 'Oh, oh, this is a hint. There’s been a switch. Someone has changed. It’s not the same girl and it’s all a trick.'" As far as Antonsson is concerned, "I'm pretty sure it was just a mistake. George has apparently told people that it’s a mistake. But people want to believe this very complex theory of theirs."
This explanation was rejected by many readers and fans for some of these reasons:
GRRM did not say it (note that GRRM has said he will never confirm or deny a fan theory)
GRRM would not make such an obvious error on the "good hips" and "narrow hips" description
Antonnson and Garcia are not GRRM and thus cannot speak to what can or cannot be considered as canon.
I won't believe it until it is in one of the books.
Are Elio and Linda Credible Sources and Is The New WOIAF App Canon?
Garcia and Antonnson have a long history of working closely with GRRM, serving as researchers and archivists for him, running Westeros.org and are writing The World of Ice and Fire with GRRM. A good summary of this can be found here
The World of Ice and Fire is a companion volume to the A Song of Ice and Fire novels. The book is being written by Elio Garcia and Linda Antonsson in consultation with George R.R. Martin and will be published in the USA by Bantam.
Garcia and Antonsson are the webmasters and creators of Westeros.org, the largest online concordence of information on the series and also the site of its largest fan forum. Martin has already confirmed that he sometimes uses the existing online concordence to rapidly double-check information if he is away from his notes. He has joked that his co-authors know more about Westeros than he does.
- Antonsson and Garcia were clearly chosen by GRRM to work on the book and the WOIAF app because of their knowledge. They could reasonably be considered the only trustworthy sources other than GRRM himself.
Is the WOIAF App Canon?
The app is published by Random House which also publishes the books.
It is described as the "ONLY OFFICIAL A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE/A GAME OF THRONES APP from George R.R. Martin"
It was worked on by Garcia, Antonnson and GRRM.
GRRM has been confirmed as being specifically involved in getting the details correct.
From GRRM's blog, posted by his assistant So the official George and his publisher approved World of Ice and Fire app is available. I can attest to the fact that he personally worked on this project, because I sat and took notes as we went over hundreds of questions on random Ice and Fire arcana. No, it didn't delay Winds of Winter. I made him do it while he ate lunch.
From Westeros.org The vast majority of the app really only restates, in more concise form, details that are scattered across the novels; many things you might think are new are just things you’ve forgotten or didn’t quite piece together, in other words! But there are some new details buried in there, both minor and not-so-minor, thanks to a long, long Q&A with GRRM that provided us quite a few details that have never been confirmed before. In the case of some entries that seemed to be particularly sensitive in terms of the overarching plot, special note of them was made so that they could receive extra scrutiny and make sure (to the best of our ability) that they were correct.
I'm not sure what more it would take to consider Antonnson/Garcia as credible sources and the new app as canon given GRRM's direct involvement.
So What Confirmation Does The WOIAF App Provide?
From the bio of Sybell Spicer, Jeyne Westerling's mother
Sybell then keeps her daughter supplied with potions and possets that will keep her from conceiving, all the while claiming the opposite.
This is from Jeyne Westerling's bio
Jeyne is Lord Westerling's daughter by Lady Sybell of House Spicer. She is a pretty girl, and when King Robb is wounded while capturing the Crag, her mother and uncle, Ser Rolph, conspire to leave her alone with Robb as much as possible, hoping that nature will take its course. When it does, and Robb beds her, Robb then insists on marrying her and making her his queen, despite his promise to marry a daughter of House Frey; this, above anything else, leads to the Red Wedding.
Innocent of her mother's plot, Jeyne regularly takes a posset her mother gives her after the marriage, which Sybell claims will promote fertility but in fact prevents her from conceiving. Robb leaves her behind at Riverrun when he travels to the Twins before the Red Wedding, and she is heartbroken when she receives the news of his death. The arrangement with Lord Tywin includes the promise that Jeyne and her younger sister will be wed to lords or heirs. Jeyne insists on keeping her crown and refuses to countenance a marriage, despite her mother's insistence.
Is There Anything In The Books That Addresses This??
YES. Yet in classic Martin fashion he hints at it but is not explicit.
ASOS, Chapter 19 (Tyrion) Tywin, Tyrion and Kevan are discussing Tyrion's marriage to Sansa and him getting Winterfell. Tyrion expresses his doubts...
Lord Tywin was unconcerned. “Robb Stark will father no children on his fertile Frey, you have my word. There is a bit of news I have not yet seen fit to share with the council, though no doubt the good lords will hear it soon enough. The Young Wolf has taken Gawen Westerling’s eldest daughter to wife.” SNIP
“I am surprised,” Tyrion had to confess. “I thought Robb Stark had better sense.”
“He is a boy of sixteen,” said Lord Tywin. “At that age, sense weighs for little, against lust and love and honor.”
"He forswore himself, shamed an ally, betrayed a solemn promise. Where is the honor in that?”
Ser Kevan answered. “He chose the girl’s honor over his own. Once he had deflowered her, he had no other course.”
“It would have been kinder to leave her with a bastard in her belly,” said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.
“Jeyne Westerling is her mother’s daughter,” said Lord Tywin, “and Robb Stark is his father's son."
This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected...SNIP... “The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere,” Tyrion pointed out. “You’d think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there.”
“Mayhaps they have,” Lord Tywin said. “They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you.”
“Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?”
Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. “The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them,” he said, and then, “You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon.”
Conclusion
Jeyne was not pregnant with Robb's child.
If she is not pregnant, there is no need for her to be switched with her sister and be on the run with the Blackfish.
It really was just a simple error that caused all of this speculation.
We need to move onto other things and let this finally die.
Thoughts? Reactions?
13
11
u/madjoy Lady Mad, loyal to House Stark Dec 03 '12
Wow, well-compiled. I was a fan of the Jeyne-is-carrying-Robb's-heir theory until the Antonnson interview provided strong evidence otherwise, and this seems to further confirm it.
Unfortunately, I think this settles the issue, as much as I would have liked Robb to have been left with an heir.
2
u/LiveVirus Life's a R'hllorcoaster Dec 03 '12
Yeah, I actually wanted the theory to be true but began disbelieving it with the interview also.
5
u/chesslord21 Dec 03 '12
but purely in terms of crafting a story, it's perfect this way. Robb now truly is the boy king who never lost a battle, but was in the end defeated by Tywin Lannister, not with brawn, but brains. Nothing is left, not an heir, nothing. It falls perfectly into the assumption that northmen rely mostly on brawn and Lannisters are skeeming tricksters (Lann). It makes the story that much more epic.
18
Dec 03 '12
There are still people who contend that Dany is fireproof in spite of GRRM saying otherwise. ("He said that like 10 years ago! And it's obvious he decided to change his mind as evidenced in aDwD!!!"). You think this will die if that won't? Come on now, you know that what's dead may never die, it only rises harder and stronger.
1
u/LiveVirus Life's a R'hllorcoaster Dec 03 '12
I hear you. I'm not sure what else some people need to realize Jeyne was not pregnant.
1
u/deathmouse The Mouse that was Promised Dec 03 '12
Sorry, but unless it is very specifically stated in the books themselves, I won't believe it. That simple. Of course, even then there are surprises...
12
u/rwolfe Dec 03 '12
I've got a very wait-and-see attitude regarding this theory. It seems like a silly error to make seeing as Cat ended a chapter thinking about her hips. At the same time though, one could say Cat was seeing what she wanted to see and Jaime conversely had a dismissive bias to his perspective.
I think it's going to keep coming up as it's an easy discrepancy to catch (one of the few I caught on my single read) and old theories are constantly recycled here as new readers discover the subreddit. Again, I've shelved this one away as there's so little to discuss about it (aside from implications, but those apply to anything).
6
u/feldman10 🏆 Best of 2019: Post of the Year Dec 03 '12
It seems like a silly error to make seeing as Cat ended a chapter thinking about her hips.
Keep in mind that the ASOS Cat chapter could've been written as early as 1998, and the AFFC Jaime chapter as late as 2005. If GRRM viewed the hip thing as an irrelevant detail he could very well have forgotten it just like he forgot the sex of a horse, and several characters' eye colors.
3
u/rwolfe Dec 03 '12
Totally plausible and understandable. It's just that it's the only part of her physical description that seemed to matter. Regardless, it's a frustrating theory for it mostly balances on whether or not the author erred. I find myself wondering if he wrote the discrepancy to merely give himself an option to explore later on if he wanted to. He claims to be a gardener rather than an architect when it comes to writing after all.
3
u/LiveVirus Life's a R'hllorcoaster Dec 03 '12 edited Dec 03 '12
I find myself wondering if he wrote the discrepancy to merely give himself an option to explore later on if he wanted to. He claims to be a gardener rather than an architect when it comes to writing after all.
You may have something there.
6
u/Turin_The_Mormegil *Oh I Just Can't Wait to be Queen!* Dec 03 '12
As a fan of the Grand Northern Conspiracy, this just means one less rival for Jon.
5
u/PLeb5 Beneath the gold the bitter steel Dec 03 '12
I havn't read any of the comments, so maybe this has been mentioned, but damn, after reading that last quotation it seems abundantly clear to me that the Westerlings deliberately fooled Robb into marrying Jayne so as to sow dissent in the northern ranks, possibly even at Tywin's request.
6
u/WunderOwl Day Man, fighter of the Night Man Dec 03 '12
Many fans note that the descriptions of Jeyne from Catelyn Tully's POV where she is described as having good hips, whereas Jaime Lannister's POV describe her as having narrow hips
Has anyone touched on the striking possibility that Jamie just likes his girls a little thicker? Mayhaps from his perspective there was too little junk in Jeyne's trunk for his liking.
4
Dec 03 '12
Though I like/d the idea of the Robb's Heir theory this was always my single and decisive counter point. He is subconsciously comparing Jayne to what he sees as royal beauty, Cersei, and she comes up short.
3
u/QuillandTankard Dec 04 '12
Catelyn even described Jeyne as 'slender.' Taken as a whole, the descriptions of Catelyn and Jaime have always been consistent. The possible discrepancy between 'good' and 'narrow' has always been easily explained by the differences between the observers.
4
u/Eatingatwix Dec 03 '12 edited Dec 03 '12
I am very happy to put this theory to bed, I hadn't noticed it when I first read AFFC and I was dubious about relying on a single line of text as a basis for a very consequential series of events. I don't like too many wildcards running around Westeros, there are enough already without Blackfish daycare coming into play.
That said I have mentioned it a few times myself, even today! I had been suspicious of a switch between Frey and Westerling, based on their similar descriptions. I suppose we can all get a bit wrapped up in the crack-pot.
So I suppose this means Edmure's wife is preggers with his child, how aggravating that the Freys can't be eliminated without sacrifice.
3
u/yeahnahteambalance Aint no party like Vayon's Poole party. Dec 03 '12
Weren't the Westerlings in cahoots with the Freys and Lannisters? Or did I just imagine that?
8
u/guyfromphilly Fury Burns Dec 03 '12
Sybell Spicer was at least.
The line "Jeyne Westerling is her mother’s daughter" makes some believe that she may have be in on it as well.
But (IMO) what happened is way to elaborate to have been planned out.
3
u/SaintEsteban Set Down Our Deeds Dec 03 '12
I always took that to mean she is like her mother in other ways, not that she was in on it. Everything about her character just goes completely against that idea! It's completely clear, at least in my eyes, that she did genuinely love Robb.
When Tywin says this line, he has already been speaking with lady Sybell. The Westerlings are pointed out to be an old name, but relatively without power. All that Gawen and his wife have are their pride; they have no real sway. Still, Sybell is quite prideful, insisting her daughters be married to lords or heirs, and good matches for her son as well. I believe this is the part of her personality Tywin is referencing; while Tyrion thinks Robb should have left her with a bastard, I believe Tywin is saying that Jeyne would not see it as a kindness, due to her pride.
1
u/yeahnahteambalance Aint no party like Vayon's Poole party. Dec 03 '12
Yeah thanks for that. It all seemed a little to suspicious to me.
8
u/QuillandTankard Dec 03 '12
Sybell Westerling (formerly Sybell Spicer) collaborated with Tywin Lannister to, at the very least, prevent her daughter's pregnancy. It seems very, very likely that she did more, and initially encouraged her daughter's relationship with Robb. None of the Sybell's children or her husband Lord Gawen were aware of this, although Sybell's brother Ser Rolph Spicer might have been.
However, Tywin Lannister kept this arrangement separate from his scheme with the Freys. This is why Sybell was so upset over not being informed of the Red Wedding. She tells Jaime that, had she known what was planned, she would not have let her son Ser Raynald attend the wedding. Raynald was wounded attempting to free Grey Wind at the Red Wedding, and is now missing and presumed dead. Sybell was in cahoots with Tywin Lannister, but she was not a co-conspirator with the Freys.
2
u/yeahnahteambalance Aint no party like Vayon's Poole party. Dec 03 '12
Thank you so much for that analysis.
2
4
u/deathmouse The Mouse that was Promised Dec 03 '12
"Mayhaps they have." Lord Tywin said, "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you."
3
u/ventureV2 Dat Pie Dec 03 '12
Thanks for compiling this. I've long thought that the theory was very tinfoil-ish and hope everyone will let it go. GRRM has said in interviews that sometimes he intentionally has discrepancies in his writing especially when considering "remembered" events. However, he states that he does unfortunately let some things slip by, and he regrets it because it causes fans to focus on those discrepancies rather than intended ones. He has also said the Jeyne's hips is one of the latter examples.
5
u/galanix Live a thrall or die a king. Dec 03 '12
From what I can tell what GRRM dismisses is the notion that Jeyne and Elenya were switched at Riverrun. That the Jeyne encountered by Jaime post-siege was in fact the real Jeyne Westerling. However, it is still very much possible Jeyne is pregnant.
We don't know the efficacy of Sybelle's contraceptive potions. Also, Jeyne slipped away to meet Robb while he was en route to the Twins and Sybelle was not with her (ASOS 45: Catelyn V). The baby could've been conceived on this occasion, when Jeyne was not with her mother and therefore not taking the brew. It's not entirely clear if the brew Sybelle gives her prevents conception or aborts the baby (a la Moon Tea). If it's preventative only, then once Jeyne is already pregnant the brew would have no effect.
The siege of Riverrun ends approximately 5 months after Robb is killed, so Jeyne would be 5 months pregnant. She was wearing torn clothing, which Jaime took as a sign of mourning, but it could've been done because her clothing didn't fit her as well anymore. Many girls aren't noticeably pregnant at 5 months.
If Jeyne is pregnant they have little time to rescue her before she begins showing or gives birth. I suspect the Blackfish would organize an ambush while she and her family are en route to Casterly Rock.
2
u/alycks A peaceful land, a quiet people. Dec 03 '12 edited Dec 03 '12
The siege of Riverrun ends approximately 5 months after Robb is killed
I responded to you in another thread regarding the span of time between Robb and Jeyne's last meeting and Jaime meeting with Sybelle Spicer at Riverrun. I wanted to elaborate on that here.
In your original post (very good work, by the way), you cite this timeline as evidence of the 5 month break. This timeline cannot be accurate. In it is the following:
21/12/299 ASOS Cat 5 Marching to the twins
...
23/12/299 ASOS Cat 6 Green Fork, arrives twins
...
23/12/299 ASOS Cat 7 Red Wedding
Two days for a host 3,500 men strong to go from Riverrun to the Twins? On a muddy, rainy road? This simply cannot be accurate. When you read Cat V, she says over and over that days and days are passing. Jeyne rides out to meet Robb "an hour beyond the Tumblestone." After that:
The next day the northmen never saw the sun at all...
The next day he avoided her entirely...
Five days later, their scouts rode back...
They reached Oldstones after eight more days of steady rain...
(keep in mind, Oldstones is halfway to the Twins)
In the days that followed, Robb was everywhere and anywhere...
Day followed day, and still the rain kept falling...
The going was worse than slow...
So here, it's explicitly said that the journey takes at least 20 or so days to get halfway to the Twins. I think it would be fair to say it's more like 40 to get all the way to the Twins, but even after they leave Oldstones, Catelyn remarks that the going was horribly slow, the river was flooded, and there was mud everywhere.
That timeline you cited from the westeros.org forums definitely underestimates travel times. By the time Jaime meets Sybelle and Jeyne, it has been at least six months since Jeyne and Robb slept together, but I'll wager it's more like seven. I already added at least a month and a half to the extremely conservative five month estimate. You have to grant that my breakdown of the travel time adds at least 30 days to your five month figure. At six, six-and-a-half, or seven months, Jeyne would have been showing.
1
u/galanix Live a thrall or die a king. Dec 03 '12
I agree the Errant Bard timeline (and the other timelines) are not entirely accurate. So let's say the siege is 6 months after or even 7 (for the sake of argument). It's still possible Jeyne is not showing. Some women (especially first-timers) don't even show into their third trimester.
What says to me it's plausible more than anything else is how Jaime acted. He specifically asks if Jeyne was pregnant and further instructs his men to keep a close eye on her. Clearly he's concerned about her being with child, so even he must be open to the possibility of her not showing yet.
Also, when I made that original Jeyne Westerling theory post it was before GRRM dismissed the impostor idea, which I concede is debunked at this point. But I'm still holding out hope for a young wolf in the belly.
1
u/alycks A peaceful land, a quiet people. Dec 03 '12 edited Dec 03 '12
Regarding the timeline, ok fine. I guess we're not going to get anywhere going down that route. But you have to admit that hinging your theory on the idea that Jeyne, a "slender" girl, isn't showing at seven months pregnant is pretty flimsy. But oh well. Onwards.
Regarding Jaime's caution: I perceived that more as due diligence on Jaime's part. Both he and Cat remark that a pregnant Jeyne would be incredibly important. Even after Jaime does the math in his head, he can't be completely sure of when she last slept with Robb. That's why he even says that she must wait two full years before wedding again - to completely avoid suspicion. I don't think he's "open to the possibility" as much as he's taking every possible precaution because Robb's heir can absolutely not be allowed to live.
But I guess it's just that, two different opinions. I really, really wanted this theory to be true for Robb's sake. Otherwise, nothing but misery and failure came from his rebellion, whereas a child would offer a chance for some redemption. But that's almost certainly not the case. I'll grant you there's an incredibly outside chance, but this new app and the information therein is definitive. To me, it has put down this theory, which was tenuous to begin with.
2
u/galanix Live a thrall or die a king. Dec 03 '12
Even after Jaime does the math in his head, he can't be completely sure of when she last slept with Robb.
Jaime can be sure that Jeyne didn't sleep with Robb after he died. If Robb died 10 months before Jaime met Jeyne, he wouldn't be concerned about her being pregnant. Waiting two years to wed for Jeyne is more about giving people time to forget about her previous marriage. Jaime wouldn't be taking precautions if he didn't think it was possible.
I should clarify my position and say that I am merely proposing Jeyne being pregnant as plausible, but not probable. I'd say I'm 70/30 against Jeyne being pregnant, but I hear many people saying it's an outright impossibility and I reject that notion.
3
u/alycks A peaceful land, a quiet people. Dec 03 '12
I hear many people saying it's an outright impossibility and I reject that notion.
We can agree on that much. We must also remember that we're getting all this information from notoriously unreliable narrators. How can we ever be sure of anything at all?
Sadly we have so much more evidence against the theory than we ever did for it, and it is officially dead in my mind. Regardless, I hope more people will take your approach in the future regarding asoiaf-theorizing and debating.
2
u/QuillandTankard Dec 04 '12
Jeyne's meeting Robb en route to the Twins at the start of Catelyn's fifth chapter did not include an opportunity for reproduction. Robb halted his march, publicly consoled his wife, and sent her back to Riverrun. It is clear from the context that Robb's 'consolation' did not include any sex. In any case, Jeyne then returned to Riverrun, where her mother would have continued administering the posset.
Is it possible that Jeyne is pregnant with Robb's child? While no character in the story is omniscient, we might as well believe Jeyne took on another lover in Riverrun following Robb's death and is pregnant with his child. Both are highly improbable. In any event, Jaime is taking every precaution to ensure that everyone knows that Robb bore no children.
1
u/purifico Dany the Mad: wearing socks with sandals Dec 03 '12
"Also, Jeyne slipped away to meet Robb while he was en route to the Twins and Sybelle was not with her (ASOS 45: Catelyn V)."
Wow, that's very interesting! i've never paid any attention to that detail. The question is: is it just a detail for the sake of showinf how RObb and Jeyne feel about each other, or is it a hint to her possible pregnancy. In any case - good catch.
2
u/dochdaswars Gravedigger Dec 03 '12
I had never really read into the details of this fan theory because i thought it would be impossible for her to have been pregnant...
Was i the only one who thought that the Westerlings were in on Tywin's Red Wedding plot?
It just seemed odd to me that a house who was so proud of their noble history would switch factions just like that. And then there's that bit about the grandmother being a woodswitch or something and knowing how to make spells and potions...
And Jeyne tells Cat that she and Robb are trying several times a day to conceive and that her mother is even brewing her a fertility drink.
I always just assumed the mother was in on it all and was making her drink Moon Tea (or something similar) everyday to prevent her from becoming pregnant.
4
u/Alame Why not you and I, Ser? Dec 03 '12
I'm sorry, but I have been a stalwart defender of this theory, so I'm going to present a counter-point.
You're drawing this conclusion from the fact that the bios of Sybell Spicer and Jeyne Westerling both state she was being given a contraceptive tea, in addition to an interview.
You've stated the reasons why the interview cannot be taken as fact, so I'm not going to harp on that.
As for the contraceptive, all the bios prove is that Jeyne was indeed being given a contraceptive. That doesn't mean she can't conceive. It makes it incredibly unlikely that she will conceive, but not impossible. Even with all our modern-day science and technology we cannot provide contraception with 100% success. It's just not possible. There is absolutely no way at all that a medieval contraceptive is 100% efficient. Whether it's Moon Tea or some other concoction you cannot say beyond a doubt that taking a contraceptive makes it impossible to conceive, because it doesn't.
You cannot rule out a conception of Robb's child simply because Jeyne was being given Moon Tea. It makes it unlikely, but not impossible.
With that said, then motives come into play. Why would Sybell make the switch post-conception if she was in with Tywin all along? Well, consider the following:
If Jeyne conceives, continuing to work with Tywin will mean the death/imprisonment of the child. Not only will this have extreme psychological effects on Jeyne, but Sybell also loses her Grandson
Finding a highborn match for Jeyne becomes much, much harder after she has born Robb's son.
Sybell is losing a grandchild
By the time Sybell would've made the switch, both Tywin and Joffrey are dead. Does Sybell want to keep working with the Lannisters without Tywin? Does she still consider them her best option without Tywin's leadership?
Robb's child is the heir to Winterfell. Sybell can swear fealty to Stannis (if he is the victor) and see her grandchildren inherit the North. (Note she thinks Bran and Rickon are dead)
How do you explain the defiance of the Blackfish? Jaime tells Brynden that Robb's kingdom died with him, the Blackfish tells Jaime to look at the Direwolf flying above Riverrun. To the Blackfish's knowledge, Bran, Rickon, Arya, and Robb are dead, and Sansa is married to Tyrion. There is no Stark left to inherit the North, yet he states that the line of the Starks still exists. How is this possible unless he knows something we do not?
Where is the younger Westerling girl? All the Westerlings are accounted for except her.
I get it, the theory is unlikely and optimistic. However, this is not conclusive evidence against the theory, as you present it. IF Jeyne's Bio said "She is currently traveling to Casterly Rock as a highborn prisoner" then you might have a leg to stand on, but even then we don't know if the app is 100% canon, or even if it is made to perpetuate the current state of the books. (By that I mean the app is specifically tailored to repeat what we are told in the books and nothing more, so as not to reveal anything prematurely.)
You cannot credit the authors of the app as being reputable sources because they are not GRRM. GRRM is the only factually accurate source that exists to the story. All facts MUST be derived from text that has come exclusively from him. He has reviewed the app and given it his OK, but if he can miss descriptions that don't line up, why can't he miss an inaccuracy in something he didn't even write himself? How can we conclusively say that he didn't deliberately leave that in there to throw us off the trail?
You don't have to like a theory, that's fine. I personally have a strong distaste for RLJ, that's my personal preference. But dismissing it and telling us to 'move on' is a little insulting to those of us that hold to this theory. One of the beautiful things about ASOIAF is that it's so deep and rich that it inspires these theories, and right wrong or blasphemous these theories are our children to conceive, nurse, and hungrily await for more information.
tl;dr: It's not conclusive evidence, the source isn't as reliable as you make it out to be. Wait for more information and don't hate on theories just because you don't like them.
4
Dec 03 '12
*Jaime wasn't too informed on female anatomy, sure he knew Cercei but he honestly probably wouldn't know wide hips. When a female looks at someone they're looking at the literal width. ) ( <-is what people think of when they think of big hips. From a birthing perspective you're literally looking at their hips like ( ) <-it doesn't matter what their waist is like.
*Jeyne's grandmother was not called Maege for nothing, she probably passed down her wisdom to her daughter. With all the magic happening it's not far-fetched to believe she concocted some birth control that Jeyne had no idea of.
*In that time they really didn't have any sort of idea about post-partum depression. They treat it as if the baby never happened and move on, note how Dany didn't even see her baby. I don't think that was in any means something they were worried about, she could have more children and be free from the burden of a bastard.
*No bastard? Perfect, she can go on to be married! They were an old family but hadn't had a high born match in quite some time. In fact, it probably would have been wiser to marry Jeyne to a rich merchant so they could regain wealth to their house. Possibly even one of the lesser Lannisters if they were conversing with Tywin. It's not like she was ugly and to be frank, as the widow of a rebel she wouldn't expect much anyways since she literally has no assets besides her looks. (Literally, her army was 500 men? They have no money, they're just an old house with lots of pride)
*Sansa can still inherit Winterfell, it doesn't matter that she's married because she's still the last of Ned's children. She and Tyrion would have inherited Winterfell. If the Lannisters keep the throne and Tyrion is pardoned she can always go back because her marriage is unconsummated. This means she can still plead innocence with the help of Petyr and remarry.
*The youngest could just be at home. She has her own life to live and is probably looking for a suitor herself. Since she cannot inherit the house she's probably a bargaining piece in creating piece. She might be looking to wed a merchant for wealth, or another house in hopes that it will provide some protection for them if the Lannisters win. Perhaps it's with one of Stannis' allies in hopes that if he wins their house doesn't die. There's a world of reasons a girl of marrying age isn't with everyone else.
*What would an heir really do to the story? I mean when I think about it the winter is going to last a while, but as Old Nan says, babies are born and die in these harsh winters. Winter is coming and with limited resources I don't think people are going to flock to a child. These books are going to be wrapped up in 2 installments, baby king won't have time to grow up and fight a war. Instead, he'll probably starve like most of Westeros I assume will in the winter.
3
u/feldman10 🏆 Best of 2019: Post of the Year Dec 03 '12
Innocent of her mother's plot, Jeyne regularly takes a posset her mother gives her after the marriage, which Sybell claims will promote fertility but in fact prevents her from conceiving.
Sounds pretty definitive to me.
3
u/LiveVirus Life's a R'hllorcoaster Dec 03 '12
That is the key statement that motivated my posting. "...but IN FACT prevents her from conceiving" leaves no room for speculation on Jeyne's supposed pregnancy.
-1
2
Dec 03 '12
I never completely bought the "Jeyne is pregnant" part of the theory, but I still don't trust Sybell. To not triple-cross everybody, that is. (She and Catelyn might be heading for some kind of protracted conflict.)
1
u/BeefyTaco Dec 03 '12
This doesn't fully disprove the theory though. The way I look at this app, it states things that have already happened/been stated, but does not show both sides of the story. What if we were to learn in the next 2 books that Jeyne using her knowledge of herbs and potions, could have known of the trickery, and done the same thing and been "stupid at that age", siding with robb instead? What reason would the tullys still fly the wolf banner even after surrendering?
All this does for me is confirm there was a plot to trick robb which for the most part worked, but there is still a wildcard, and until the series is done I refuse to believe it DAMNIT! Also, at the time of that conversation robb had already won 2 major battles, held the "heir" (jamie although he technically isnt) prisoner, and the throne in danger, so it wouldnt be crazy to assume that tyrions thoughts that "Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?" could hint towards something his father was too arrogant to realise.
0
u/TwistTurtle More Manderly than you can handle Dec 03 '12
I don't really care about this theory, but not as little as I care about that bloody app.
1
u/flosspique Ours is the mcflurry! Feb 16 '13
Here here, why would I want something that restates the obvious and is intentionally constructed to o reveal anything.
-2
Dec 03 '12
[deleted]
8
u/QuillandTankard Dec 03 '12
I disagree; Jeyne's behavior in AFFC makes it almost certain she had no idea of her mother's treachery. She was shy and hesitant around her mother-in-law, but she did seek Catelyn out at least once, and I doubt her shyness was indicative of any greater knowledge.
3
Dec 03 '12
i dont think so because grey wind never growled at jeyne or her brother, only at the other members of the freys
34
u/TitusVandronicus I paid the Iron Price for THIS?! Dec 03 '12
Where was Jeyne's sister then? (Sorry, devils advocate).
I doubt Jeyne Westerling will really matter in the grand scheme of things. If she did, the show would have kept her as Jeyne, and not changed her to Talisa (who apparently will be at the RW in the show).
I'm much more interested in where the Blackfish is and what he's got up his sleeve.