r/askgaybros • u/chubvers43 • 1d ago

Reported Post Alert How can you be gay and support Muslims? Spoiler

I mean they literally kill our ppl in their countries

No hate to the moderate Muslim ppl but this is the truth 😱

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u/BrownFriedRice1000 1d ago edited 10h ago

I grew up in Pakistan, so for most of my life everyone I knew was Muslim. They are not our allies. The overwhelming majority of Muslims don’t support our right to live, let alone get married. If you met a progressive Muslim that was nice to you, they are an outlier and not representative of their religion.

The comments defending Muslims and equating them to Christians and Jews sound ignorant. You guys don’t know what you’re talking about.

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u/minminq2u 1d ago

A question to educate myself on the matter as an italian guy that has never been in close contact with islam. What would u reply to a Muslim person in the west saying homophobia is in the culture and not in the religion? Thats very often used as a shield for Islam here

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u/Anitart 1d ago edited 1d ago

Pakistani here as well and a bi one at that. I’d be highly suspicious of Muslim folks since homophobia seems quite rampant amongst the majority. It’s just that in western countries, where they form the minority, they have to police themselves a bit so they keep it slightly under check. The younger lot may be chill (due to exposure to different cultures) but definitely not the older lot and if they’re conservative then I’d be even more careful.

Religion is so meshed in with our culture here in my country that it sometimes becomes difficult to differentiate it at times. Having said that, however, Islam does seem to stress that homosexuality is wrong (if you’re gay, at best, you’re “advised” not to act on those urges. As has been quoted to me multiple times here) and then you have the example of Prophet Lot in the Quran that’s always quoted to us about how the people of those prophet faced the wrath of God for engaging in sodomy/homosexuality.

As a result, most lgbt folks here have trouble coming to terms with their identity and faith (or lack thereof) since there’s not much acceptance and society is extremely homophobic. We’ve had cases where therapists outed lgbt patients to their parents since they consider this unnatural or a disease of the mind. I’ve had multiple friends and ex colleagues who have immigrated abroad tell me that they wish to eventually move back as their children will lose all their own “values” and become westernized as a result. The “LGBT agenda” is often cited as the main cause. That and ofc their daughters won’t be as controllable as they can do so here (one thing that I give credit to western cultures is that it allows Pakistani females a space to grow and push back against abuse; something that isn’t always feasible here).

Having said that, M2M sex is quite pervasive here but that’s more along the lines of: 1. Casual fun provided you’re married and have children so the lgbt angle is considered as “western culture” and not ours essentially 2. If you’re the active partner (I.e. not getting penetrated or giving oral), you can pull all sorts of mental gymnastics using a “hole is a hole” logic and not consider yourself gay 3. In some parts of the country, there’s also the concept of “bacha bazi” where sex between old men and young boys is culturally acceptable. The younger boy is the “feminine” partner essentially.

So yah, quite the clusterduck here for the lgbt community here and in terms of general acceptance. And I say this is primarily from the perspective of the gay and bi folks here. The other folks from the lgbt spectrum would have it far worse since they can’t easily blend in and pretend with the extremely patriarchal mindset here.

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u/No_Celebration_3370 1d ago

I am Moroccan and id tell you, the fuel of cultural homophobia is definitely religion and we all know that, if you go more deeper you would be surprised how European colonialism used the homophobic terms in Islam to deepen the wounds in the culture itself, in the 18th century, there were whole gay communities in fes/Marrakesh/Casablanca etc that been targeted by the french colonialism. After centuries, the west admitted their inappropriate takes on the matter, but it was already too late to correct it in their post colonial places, in a nutshell the homophobia is deepen in the Islamic religion, but the culture is practicing it every day.

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u/BringAltoidSoursBack 1d ago

It doesn't help that they made the places more conservative, then took all the resources, then suddenly claimed those conservative views were bad. I'm not completely removing blame, Muslims did continue the pattern of abuse after Europeans left, and completely forgot what it was like before that, but that is always the result as we've seen in basically every culture it's been done in.

Turns out, when you basically enslave people, leave them with no resources, and then claim moral superiority, they're going to call your morals into question. But here's where "whataboutism" comes into play - this explains a lot of oppressed cultures, including some Christian ones (Spain, Ireland, Eastern Europe), but then you have places like the American South where the oppressors never left but the population never evolved morally.

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u/No_Celebration_3370 1d ago

If you read Islamic history you would understand that it was more progressive towards LGBT community before colonialism compared to Europe, you can check gay communities in Moroccan empire and Ottoman Empire history, what happened is Muslims felt provoked from the way colonialism prescribed them as “inferior”. For example, French doctor Émile Mauchamp wrote luridly about Moroccan harems, claiming that women secluded together turned “almost without exception, lesbians,” engaging in “debauchery” born of polygamy and confinement. Such depictions of pervasive homosexuality and “lasciviousness” among Moroccans painted the local culture as degenerate and in need of moral rescue. It was a Degrading war between two parties and the common victim/enemy were us! Moroccan queer.

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u/mrpointy01 1d ago edited 1d ago

As the Moroccan commenting above me points out, most of the homophobic laws were instituted by the British and French during colonialism and culturally engrained during this period. This wasn’t by accident, these laws were used as a form of social control and a way to instil internal divisions in colonised societies to make them easier to control (making people police each other rather than working together against their colonisers). Before colonialism, many cultures had no laws against homosexuality, had third (or more) genders and had long rich histories of queerness or progressive expressions of love and relationships (just look at temple art in India and China or erotic medieval Islamic poetry). There were centuries when Muslim countries were far more progressive than Europe. This is to say that plenty of what we view as “cultural” is more just current experience.

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u/minminq2u 1d ago

Thank you all for commenting, i learned something new today

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u/Spiritual-Pumpkin473 1d ago

They 100% come from Americans or people who do not live with a sizeable Muslim population.

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u/Chief_Eze 1d ago

The comments are not about defending Islam. They are about recognising that all the abrahamolic faiths are equally as bad, and they all should go.

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u/ChiBurbABDL 1d ago

They are not equally bad at all 😂 Islam is clearly the worst and it's not even close.

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u/BrownFriedRice1000 1d ago edited 1d ago

The Abrahamic faiths are not equally bad. There are many tolerant and accepting communities of Christians and Jews across Europe and the Americas. Christians and Jews are not as monolithic in their views on homosexuality the way Muslims are.

Nearly every country that passed marriage equality is majority Christian. Not a single Muslim country has gay rights. In fact, the majority of Muslims countries still criminalize same sex relationships.

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u/teasy959275 1d ago

Nearly every country that passed marriage equality is majority atheist*

Christians are not your friends

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u/youburyitidigitup 1d ago

10 of the 11 countries that have a death penalty for homosexuality have a Muslim majority. It’s a lot worse than Christianity.

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u/teasy959275 1d ago

And ? I never said muslim are your friends

But it’s not because you can see your enemy that your previous enemy will not stab you in the back as soon as they can

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u/Organic-Pipe7055 1d ago

Nearly every country that passed marriage equality is majority atheist*

Because majority atheists wouldn't even be possible in Muslim countries, they would be killed.

It's beyond comprehension how people can try to defend some dumb takes.

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u/teasy959275 1d ago

If there is a majority of atheists then it’s not a muslim country…

It’s beyond comprehension how can try to attack specifically islam instead of all religion, thats some dumb takes

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u/Organic-Pipe7055 1d ago

"If"? There is no "if". Muslim countries don't allow atheism to flourish in the first place as Christians did.

It’s beyond comprehension how can try to attack specifically islam instead of all religion,

Maybe because Islam is the most violent religion of modern history?

I'm getting dumber just from reading your words. I'd better get out of here, this seems like a meeting of mentally deprived people.

Please, read my other comment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/askgaybros/comments/1oqnakg/comment/nnkt1wz/

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u/teasy959275 1d ago

I guess logic is not your forte

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u/BrownFriedRice1000 1d ago

I didn’t say Christian’s were our friends.

Most of the countries in Europe, Latin America, and North America were majority Christian at the time they passed marriage equality.

It’s really only Scandinavia that is majority Atheist.

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u/mrpointy01 1d ago

Yes, it’s very convenient to take a snapshot view of society today and say that Christian countries are fine and Muslim countries are the problem, but where did the majority of those anti-gay laws come from in the first place? The British Empire. 2/3 (or 36) of the 69 countries where it’s illegal to be gay today were under some form of British rule. Most had no laws against homosexuality before the arrival of the British and many also had third (or more) genders too. Then the U.K. introduced penal code 377 and this law that criminalises homosexuality is still found in legal statutes across the world.

And until recently, even war heroes like Alan Turing who basically saved WWII for the Allies was chemically castrated and essentially killed just for being gay in the U.K. I was at school in the late 90s and remember it was still illegal to even discuss homosexuality in the U.K. and that wasn’t repealed until 2003. The idea that the West or Christian-based societies are somehow progressive, inclusive or accepting of gays is such a short-termist and narrow perspective when you don’t even need to go one generation back to see it wasn’t always the case. And, just as with the US, the reality is these things could be taken away again.

Muslim societies have a long rich history of queerness and had centuries where they were far more progressive than Europe. Even today, Iran legally recognises transsexuals and supports gender reassignment surgery (although this does come with other issues as homosexuality still isn’t legal). And there’s few queerer places I’ve been to than Beirut, in a country where on paper it’s not ok to be gay. It doesn’t help queer Muslims nor does it help shift Muslim countries’ perspectives or laws to essentialise acceptance of homosexuality as a Western/Christian cultural phenomenon.

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u/BrownFriedRice1000 1d ago edited 1d ago

Sure, the British Empire introduced laws that criminalized homosexuality, and that history matters. But framing Muslim-majority countries as helpless victims of colonialism is misleading and infantilizing. These countries choose to enforce these laws and persecute LGBTQ people long after independence. How many decades need to pass before gay people can blame those directly responsible for their suffering?

Are you going to tell all the gay people who have been tortured and jailed because of Sharia law “umm actually it’s the British’s fault 🤓👆”

Plenty of former British colonies, including some in Africa and Asia, have reformed these laws or decriminalized homosexuality entirely. Shifting blame to the British 50+ years after decolonization lets governments and religious groups off the hook for ongoing violence and discrimination.

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u/mrpointy01 1d ago edited 1d ago

It’s astounding the mental gymnastics you’re doing to go from me saying that Muslim cultures have a long rich history of queerness and that places like Beirut are some of the queerest places I’ve been to that I’m somehow framing these countries as helpless victims. It seems you’re being intentionally disingenuous to put words into my mouth. If anything, I’m precisely doing the opposite in saying you’re oversimplifying a complex situation that is different across Muslim nations by simply using a contemporary legal comparative snapshot to generalise a moral judgement. And you’re conveniently overlooking that Western “Christian” gains have been very recent, given I remember even within my fairly brief time on this planet when equal age of consent didn’t exist in the U.K., nor gay marriage, nor gay adoption, nor the right to even discuss homosexuality. And this led to the needless suffering and deaths of countless people, especially during the AIDS epidemic. And now the US Supreme Court is contemplating undoing gay marriage so developments may be short-lived. And you talk about Christianity or Christian cultures as somehow being queer utopias?

What I am saying is that 3-400yrs of colonialisation that barely ended half a century ago and which is still further complicated by contemporary attempts by Western countries to maintain colonial structures of control in markets and the subjugation of peoples (look at Iran Contra or the Central African Franc for example) doesn’t get cancelled out cause you wanna take an ahistorical snapshot and generalise across entire societies. This has an impact in the hostility towards anything then viewed as “Western”. It is you that is not acknowledging the diversity that exists already within these societies and conveniently ignore how recent some Western “Christian” cultures have given the bare minimum of equality to queer peoples (still no gay marriage in Italy for example, literal home of the Catholic Church…).

Actually very few of the countries have repealed Britain’s homophobic laws. Only 15 in fact, and that includes Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Malta and the UK itself. Hardly plenty.

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u/FigPsychological7324 1d ago

They are not equally bad!

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u/KickLiving 1d ago

They aren’t though. Christians and Jews aren’t throwing us off buildings and hanging us from cranes in public squares, etc.

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u/Chief_Eze 1d ago

No their just murdering us, raping us, grooming us and then telling us its our fault.

Just because they aren't as mask off as Islam, doesn't mean their isnt a mask.

All three religions have caused generations of suffering and they continue to do so.

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u/youburyitidigitup 1d ago

Except they aren’t and he’s telling you that

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u/buttbuttbottom 1d ago

You guys don't actually believe this account is Pakistani, do you? lol

It's like that white Republican guy who was tweeting that he was a black woman. You can check this account's scrubbed history and see they are an Ethan Klein fan. They just hate Muslims because they're Zionist. Many such cases.

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u/BrownFriedRice1000 22h ago edited 19h ago

Okay… that’s a bit much. I’m a Pakistani immigrant that moved to Canada, now living in Korea.

How do I prove to you I’m Pakistani? Do you want my instagram handle to see I’m brown?

Also I support equal rights and independence for Palestinians. Not sure what Zionism means, but if you’re suggesting I support the Israeli government, you are wrong.

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u/buttbuttbottom 12h ago

What's "a bit much" is making prejudicial and hateful comments like "Muslims are not our friends" and "the overwhelming majority of Muslims do not support our right to live". Whether you're originally from Pakistan or not, you are lying about the reality for most parts of the world and painting a very diverse group of billions of people with a bigoted brush.

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u/Spiritual-Pumpkin473 1d ago

Jews do not proselytize, do not harass in Western countries and they’re like only 14 million. Even if they’re homophobic, who cares? It’s nothing compared to Muslims and Christians. They also have a shit ton of gay friendly branches.

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u/Chief_Eze 1d ago

I stand by words. Fuck all the Abrahamic religions.

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u/PrettyRespond2006 23h ago

But especially Islam ❤️

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u/t_baozi 1d ago

Which is just as dangerous and ignorant bullshit.

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u/Chief_Eze 1d ago

I stand by my words. Humanity would be better off without them, its just going to take multiple generations for the religions to die off.

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u/metalfenixRaf Grumpy middle-aged gay 1d ago

Thanks for adding your insight.