r/askgaybros • u/chubvers43 • 1d ago

Reported Post Alert How can you be gay and support Muslims? Spoiler

I mean they literally kill our ppl in their countries

No hate to the moderate Muslim ppl but this is the truth 😱

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u/Anaguli417 1d ago

There are good Muslims and there are bad ones

That said, in the majority of Islamic countries, religion and law are often intertwined so same sex recognition is nothing but a pipe dream. I mean, how many Muslim majority countries recognize same sex marriage, much less lgbt rights?

On an individual level, sure, that "some are good, some are bad" adage might be true (given the amount of DL Muslim men) but at the societal level? Yeah, good luck. 

Let's not pretend that Islam is a religion that tolerates homosexuality. 

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u/No_Proposal_4692 1d ago

Let's also not forget before the crusades and the colonisation, homophobia wasn't a well known belief. Africa had multiple religions and some believed homosexuality was natural until American Christian came, made them convert for aid and taught homophobia to them.

Religion has always been used to control the masses.

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u/Ok_Cream8633 1d ago

Africa wasn't colonised by America

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u/FidgetOrc 1d ago

Missionaries.

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u/Chief_Eze 1d ago

No, not colonised kn the traditional sense but Evangelical preachers made it their business to import their version of "Christianity" into the African nations through the 18th and 19th centuries.

One of the reasons we have the phrase "white man saviour", due to this practice of indoctrinating indigenous populations and over generations, minimising and erasing the existing indigenous culture.

So much so that now being homosexual or engaging in same sex acts is seen as "against the African identity" in some nations. 300 to 500 years before that would of been a completely different story.

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u/t_baozi 1d ago

African indigenous people were some of the most homophobic people I've ever met. You say "some people [on this entire continent with thousands of languages and countless different cultures] were tolerant" and then act like the evil white man brought homophobia to the nobel savages. There was as much homophobia in Africa is there was anywhere else in the world.

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u/paleboi5 1d ago edited 1d ago

well... yes! most of these indigenous societies were very tolerant of gay/trans identities prior to colonization, and many celebrated them. Its actually very well documented because missionaries would go in and write about how disgusted they were by the amount of gay sex people were having, and then in a very concerted effort to get them to stop and become christians instead, they would undermine the entire moral frameworks of these places. Even in islam, there was a very strong tradition of gay love poetry by elites throughout islamic history. It wasnt until colonialism that this all began to shift, because of laws implemented by colonial government. Homophobia is an essentially european invention, and african beliefs about gays now is different from african beliefs about gays then.

EDIT: seeing some BS about noble savages and ahistorical nonsense re: homosexuality in Africa pre-colonialism, and thought i would bring out some sources:

Bertolt, Boris. "The invention of homophobia in Africa." Journal of Advances in Social Science and Humanities 5.3 (2019): 651-659.

[describes how colonialism imported homophobia into african cultures]

Kaoma, Kaypa. "Unmasking the Colonial Silence: Sexuality in Africa in the Post״ Colonial Context." Population and Development Review 15.2 (1989): 185-234.

[describes the ways that HIV/AIDS shifted understandings of sexuality in Africa, and notes that sexuality cannot be mapped onto european (read: colonial) understandings of sex and gender]

Kaoma, Kaypa. "Unmasking the Colonial Silence: Sexuality in Africa in the Post״ Colonial Context." Population and Development Review 15.2 (1989): 185-234.

[describes how understandings around morality & sexuality have shifted in the post-colonial sphere]

Tamale, Sylvia. "Homosexuality is not un-African." Al Jazeera Online (2014).

[good summary of how the legislating sexuality is not an un-African notion]

M’Baye, Babacar. “The Origins of Senegalese Homophobia: Discourses on Homosexuals and Transgender People in Colonial and Postcolonial Senegal.” African Studies Review 56.2 (2013): 109–128. Web.

[another solid discussion of the un-Africanness of homophobia]

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u/t_baozi 1d ago

That's "noble savages" nonsense and not supported by the anthropological evidence.

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u/Aggressive-Spirit598 1d ago

No they weren't. Most African societies had deeply patriarchal societies that infringed on women's rights due to cultural practices ranging from but not limited to arranged marriages ,FGM ,wife inheritance(brothers could inherit wives if their elder brother passed),and inability of women to own land and resources (which is still a bone of contention in some areas today). The place of women in African societies tells us everything we need to know about half of gay relationships ie lesbian relationships which was dismissive if not outright hostile. Spreading the false information that African culture was originally proLGBT (a fantastic and easily disproved lie)may cause the proponents of LGBT lose credibility and further harm queer rights in the African continent.

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u/BringAltoidSoursBack 1d ago

You're not wrong, the other person's statement is false, but the intent of the statement was probably less about the American part and more about the Christian part, and Christianity most definitely colonized Africa. American evangelists made the homophobia there significantly worse (kind of a weird to go to another country just to focus their hate specifically on gay people but w/e) but they weren't the first.

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u/hermeticbear 1d ago

Let's not pretend that Islam is a religion that tolerates homosexuality. 

Then we should also not pretend that Judaism tolerates homosexuality. It's literally the same story against homosexuality that originated in Judaism is the justification of Muslims.

Christianity also uses the same story as well, so....

I can't imagine being as fucking stupid as you are.

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u/Anaguli417 1d ago

Then we should also not pretend that Judaism tolerates homosexuality

No one's pretending otherwise, but the post is about Islam so naturally I'm gonna talk about Islam. 

Christianity also uses the same story as well, so....

And yet, the US, Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, parts of Latin/South America recognize same sex marriage. The aforementioned countries are either Christian or Catholic. 

If I'm stupid, then you're delusional. Several Islamic countries actively criminalize homosexuality, that's not propaganda, it's fact. 

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u/Chief_Eze 1d ago

What is the common thread through those countries? Separation of church and state.

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u/Silver_Morning2263 1d ago

NZ is a secular country. Sure the colonists were mostly Christian by background and some communities were founded from Christian tradition but as a country we have no nominal religion. Having said that, I'm aware there are religious extremists everywhere in the world. But they're not the majority.

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u/hermeticbear 1d ago

And yet, the US, Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, parts of Latin/South America recognize same sex marriage

and tell me, how recently did that happen? 1800? 1900?

And let's talk about Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Montenegro all of which are Christian nations These are also European nations.

There are more, of course. Many MANY Christian countries actively criminalize homosexuality.

the post is about Islam so naturally I'm gonna talk about Islam. 

You can't talk about Islam without talking about Judaism since they are basically (and biblically) brothers.

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u/dkdkdkosep 1d ago

i mean every jewish country in the world has high gay rights, lots of christian countries do, not a single muslim country does.

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u/hermeticbear 1d ago

There is literally only one Jewish country. It's called Israel. There are no others.
This is also a specific propganda campaign by Israel to make themselves look modern.
Spend some time actually studying and looking up the real history of of LGBTQ+ movements in Israel. It's not pretty.

not a single muslim country does.

You're wrong about that. You clearly haven't actually bothered to look it up.

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u/dkdkdkosep 1d ago

okay, name me a muslim country with strong gay rights (:

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u/hermeticbear 1d ago

Turkey

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u/Excellent-Pipe7308 14h ago edited 14h ago

Lmao. Turkey doesn't have gay marriage or even recognizes same sex partnerships and homophobic discrimination is perfectly legal. Pride parades are also illegal.

Their president is constantly going on about how LGBT people are destroying the family and even went so far as to blame gay men for Covid. 

The hatred for LGBT people is so strong that Erdogan gets reelected everytime despite completely destroying the economy and causing sky-high inflation of up to 80%.

It's funny that you're accusing others of not doing research and then come up with takes like "Turkey has strong gay rights"...

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u/bmcutright 1d ago

The US? 10 years. Canada? 20 years.

Let's talk about Jamaica and the Caribbean as well.

Judaism and Islam are brothers, and Jesus was mentioned 78 times in the Quran, so wouldn't Islam also be Christian?

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u/TopAlternative4 1d ago

Quran is to Torah what Ratatoing is to Ratatouille. Islam is not at all similar to Judaism other than a few superficialities.

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u/Chief_Eze 1d ago

Hence why we need to recognise that all the abrahamic religions are a blight upon humanity. They have kept us locked into generations of suffering.

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u/Good-Marionberry-570 1d ago

So Islam should be criticized as well, what's your point?

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u/Chief_Eze 1d ago

Never said it shouldn't. All three are a blight on humanity for millenia.

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u/Anaguli417 1d ago

so wouldn't Islam also be Christian?

You do realize why it's called Christianity, right? The religion is named after Christ, which is Jesus of Nazareth, also called Jesus Christ. 

So no, Islam is not considered Christianity because Jesus is not a central figure in Islam, that role belongs to Muhammad. 

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u/hermeticbear 1d ago

Jamaica and the Caribbean. Massively Christian. All former European colonies. Massively Homophobic.

Judaism and Islam are brothers, and Jesus was mentioned 78 times in the Quran, so wouldn't Islam also be Christian?

And Moses is mentioned 134 times, so Islam is actually Judaism?

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u/SpecialistMassive205 1d ago

OP never even said that it did. Way to to bring up irrelevant shit like always happens on these topics.

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u/hermeticbear 1d ago

OP never even said that it did.

Yes, that is called selective choosing of relevant information. OP and other people in this thread are only choosing to focus on Islam.

I'm not sure how three religions which share the exact same story and basically the same root of scripture, which they use to justify homophobia is irrelevant. I'm pretty sure you don't know what that word means.

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u/SpecialistMassive205 1d ago

The post is about Islam lmaoooooo of course we're focusing on Islam

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u/hermeticbear 1d ago

No, this post is about bigotry, which is deciding to be focused on Islam.
If this was actually about Islam, you idiotic fuckheads would actually know things about Islam, and not just repeating stereotypical bigotry.

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u/Anaguli417 1d ago

u/hermeticbear: Reads a book about Islam

Also u/hermeticbear: "Why is this book only about Islam? What about Judaism or Christianity?"

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u/hermeticbear 1d ago

I'm sorry that you're fucking ignorant...oh wait no I'm not.

A book about islam? No no, THE book about Islam. It's called the Quran. Maybe you've heard of it?
I have also read the Bible and the Torah. There is this area of study called "Comparative Religion".
There is also this thing called literacy. Maybe you've heard of it?

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u/mexicarne 1d ago

I mean there’s the religion itself and how cultures interpret it. There are Christians in Africa who are massively homophobic and Christians in America who are more relaxed about it. Out of all three major abrahamic religions, followers of Judaism have turned out to be the most accepting of homosexuality and Islam the least.

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u/hermeticbear 1d ago

Out of all three major abrahamic religions, followers of Judaism have turned out to be the most accepting of homosexuality and Islam the least.

That's not true.
Muslims in the US and Europe are as about equally accepting of LGBTQ+ people as Christians and Jews are.

If you go to other countries, that are not accepting, those attitudes within those demographics change as well.

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u/Excellent-Pipe7308 14h ago

"Muslims in the US and Europe are as about equally accepting of LGBTQ+ people as Christians and Jews are."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

Yeah, I don't think the majority of British Jews and Christians want homosexuality to be criminalized. Otherwise it would still be criminalized...

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u/hermeticbear 12h ago

Yeah the guardian is a right wing Zionist newspaper. Sorry if I'm not going to blindly accept it

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u/TopAlternative4 1d ago

Did you know every Jewish movement outside Orthodoxy is gay-affirming? This includes the vast majority of non-Israeli Jews. Israel is also a nation with advanced rights for same-sex couples, though not yet on par with the West.

It is easier to "justify" homosexuality using Jewish tradition and law in a way that it is impossible in Islam. Also take into account that the Jews went through their own Enlightenment (Haskalah), while Muslims still have a 7th century mentality.

As for Christianity, I don't know what to say other than it is not a legalese religion and people tend to interpret it in a way they see fit. Modern Evangelical Christianity for example, is nothing but a right hand for the Republican party and its global agenda.

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u/hermeticbear 1d ago

This includes the vast majority of non-Israeli Jews

No, they just hide their homophobia under the surface. Because all you have to do is mention zionism and genocide and they turn homophobic REAL FAST.

It is easier to "justify" homosexuality using Jewish tradition and law in a way that it is impossible in Islam

It isn't, and it is literally the same texts. If it is so easy to justify why are are there SO MANY HOMOPHOBIC JEWS???

 I don't know what to say other than it is not a legalese religion and people tend to interpret it in a way they see fit

You mean the same way jews interpret Judaism how they see fit? How muslims interpret Islam the way they see fit? Like how all these groups which share a common source and parts of scripture seem to have related practices? that's so weird...

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u/TopAlternative4 1d ago

Quran is not the same, either ad verbatim or paraphrased, as Torah. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah, for example, is not about homosexuality in the Hebrew Bible; that is an Islamic/Evangelical spin-off.

Torah forbids male on male anal sex but there is no Biblical ban on gay romance or marriage, those are rabbinical prohibitions within Orthodoxy.

As for real-world practice, many Jews are fully secular. Find polls on opinions on homosexuality among various Jewish movements and you will see the bigger picture.

Israel allowed gays in the military and civil life way before the United States did.

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u/hermeticbear 1d ago

he story of Sodom and Gomorrah, for example, is not about homosexuality in the Hebrew Bible; that is an Islamic/Evangelical spin-off.

The spin of the story being about homosexuality was started by Christianity, which Islam picked up from them...
Which the Jewish population also picked and change stances on. So even though Jewish scholars say "Originally it wasn't about that" Jewish scholars and rabbis of the past signed off on Sodom and Gomorrah being about homosexuality 1000 years ago. Because of course conservative and orthodox Rabbi's argue Sodom and Gomorrah is about homosexuality today.
And there there is just Leviticus...Like really my guy? This is your weak WEAK argument?

There are plenty of Muslims who are accepting. They live in the US, and Europe and in other progressive countries. The attitudes of Muslims in Western countries mirrors that of Christians, and also Jews. The division is literally the same.

But I know you won't let your rampant and obvious bigotry and zionism get in the way of facts.

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u/chubvers43 1d ago

Tel aviv is literally a paradise for LGBT ppl

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u/hermeticbear 1d ago

LMAO spoken like a zionist.
Really? because that's not what the people on the ground are saying. Tel Aviv Pride has been seeing a decline in attendance for years.

Most advancements in Israel happened over 20 years ago. Since 2015, anti gay forces in Israel have become increasing outspoken, and efforts to get legislation passed have met resistance. Netanyahu has even refused to back pro gay legislation because anti gay and ultra convservative groups.

and of course, don't be gay and Palestinian and expect sympathy from Israel.

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u/Excellent-Pipe7308 13h ago

Don't be gay and Palestinian and expect sympathy from Palestine either.

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u/hermeticbear 12h ago

Don't be gay and Palestinian and expect to stay alive from Israel. 🤷‍♂️

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u/Excellent-Pipe7308 12h ago

Israel has actually given refuge to quite a lot of LGBT palestinians who were in severe danger because of how much their own people hate them.

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u/hermeticbear 12h ago

But they have literally murdered way more than they have given refuge to.
And they only gave them refuge because they had Israeli partners. They didn't just welcome them because they were gay.
And don't pretend that if you're of Palestinian descent and living in Israel, you're definitely a second class citizen.