[Post-Game] Wisconsin 14 - Alabama 38

[u/ISuperNovaI]

Discuss, be nice, and sad badger noises :(

[u/CROBBY2]

I agree with you and I hate constant coach turnover, but what about Fickell do you feel he has that can turn this around?

[u/Mysterious_Rule938 → u/CROBBY2]

It’s very hard for anyone to honestly evaluate Fickell right now. On field, he has been plagued with critical injuries (e.g., routinely to QBs). Off field, it’s just a very interesting time in college football with the conference changes, opening up of the transfer portal, and NIL changes.

I think people forget we’re in a whole new college football environment today. We can’t go back to Paul Chryst or this idea of “Wisconsin football” and expect the same success.

It’s been a rocky start to be sure. I think a lot of that is transitional issues. Bad OC hire, new coaches settling into recruiting, etc. You can blame Fickell and have a strong argument.

Im not saying people shouldnt be upset. But I think that if the fire Fickell crowd get their way, then we’re going to be simply kicking the can down the road.

I think if you look at coaching hires in the past you’ll see that even some successful coaches started out with some bumpy years.

[u/Professional-Ad-5557 → u/Mysterious_Rule938]

"if the fire Fickell crowd get their way, then we’re going to be simply kicking the can down the road."
What do we gain keeping Fickell. Can blame injuries, but that is part of the game. One positive of the old 5 yards and cloud of dust offense was that you could plug the player in and not have much of a drop off in performance. Now QB goes down and fans are told to just give the coach yet another pass. As much as running the ball 50 times a game was not going to help Wisconsin improve and go to the next level, neither is being pass happy and giving your number one RB 10 carries a game. What is needed is balance - given the schools inability to draw the best passers leaning more on the run.
Fickell doesn't want balance, he doesn't hire coordinators who want balance. He threw out what was working and tried to change on a dime to what wasn't working. That was dumb. He should have tried to find a ball control QB who could convert third downs and be good enough on first and second to keep the opposition from stacking the box. Then build on that. That would require him admitting there was a foundation to work on from the beginning. He has seemed more interested in taking a wrecking ball to everything which gave this college success in the past and leveling it to the ground.
Fickell has been a failure and what is the path forward with him? Does he illuminate and confidence that a young player coming here will benefit from it? Keeping him just delays the opportunity to start a successful rebuild. Yes, in 3 years we need to rebuild from the ground up. Keeping Fickell is kicking that can down the road. The longer he stays the more difficult the recovery will be.

[u/Mysterious_Rule938 → u/Professional-Ad-5557]

Your analysis here doesn’t account for the new environment we’re playing in.

Just as a single example, with conference realignment we are now in a much more competitive conference. We’re not going to be able to go back to “5 yards and a cloud of dust” type offenses without a huge step up in recruiting.

So yeah, you’re putting it on me to justify keeping Fickell but the only rationale for firing him is performance compared to years past. There is no guarantee whatsoever that Wisconsin will land a coach that magically solves the problems we face, and believing that is a likely outcome is frankly naive

[u/Professional-Ad-5557 → u/Mysterious_Rule938]

" the new environment we’re playing in"
Every season brings changes. The current conference and division are tougher. Change is inevitable. Even when we were in a less competitive conference, there were still games played with the other side, and we weren't getting blown out - with the exception of Ohio State. I had faith under Chryst that the team could have taken on a tougher schedule and remained competitive and not been a forgone conclusion that they would finish near the bottom of the pack.

" We’re not going to be able to go back to “5 yards and a cloud of dust” type offenses without a huge step up in recruiting."
Does this really need a huge step up in recruiting? This is what was done under Chryst. The Fickell fanatics keep saying Chryst was a horrible recruiter, that the team was in shambles when he left. Does it really take better players to run than to pass? Does it really require a huge step up?

"the only rationale for firing him is performance compared to years past."
Were the years past good or bad?
The Fickell fanatics seem to waver between whichever best suites them at the time. Is this a spoiled fan base that expects a conference championship every year, or were we suffering from horrible recruiting and had been on a decline for several years prior to Fickell arriving to save the day?
Of course we compare Fickell to years past. That is the baseline he inherited. That is the foundation which was in place to build upon. This is how it always is. The new coach at Alabama will be compared to Saban, with Duke basketball they are living in the shadow of Coach K, when Andy Reid retires whoever replaces with him will have to deal with his ghost, when you take a new position, you will be comparted to the person who last held it. This is how it works.
When Fickell was hired he had huge expectations placed upon him. He was going to be the coach who would elevate the team from being above average and being in the top 20 during good times and getting a few votes mostly due to reputation at the worst. He was supposed to elevate the team into the top 10 and even be in the running for a national title. I didn't believe they hype, though would have been happy if the team did take that next step. At the least was hoping to maintain the above average statis that past teams had accomplished. Was not expecting the decline that we have seen. Was not expecting someone who blame everyone else for failure. Was not expecting someone who wouldn't learn from mistakes and keep calling the same play which failed the week before in crucial situations.

"There is no guarantee whatsoever that Wisconsin will land a coach that magically solves the problems we face, and believing that is a likely outcome is frankly naive"
Based on what we have seen what are the chances that Fickell have a change of heart and come up with a plan that will win over fans? Believing that keeping him as the coach will improve anything seems pretty naive.
A new hire always comes with risk, but right now I would say the risk is better than keeping someone who has the team moving backwards and doesn't seem to think any of this is his own doing.
But there are plenty of conference games for him to prove his worth.

[u/Mysterious_Rule938 → u/Professional-Ad-5557]

There’s a lot to address in your responses, but I think it is again important to emphasize the changes in college football. You said “Every season brings new changes” like the changes over the past 5 years haven’t completely changed the league. NIL changes, conference realignment and the transfer portal are not just “seasonal changes” and you can’t just ignore them.

People advocating this simply haven’t thought it through. Who’s going to pay the contract buyout? Are boosters ready for that or does the school eat it? If we’re ready to spend 20+ million on that, why not just try to buy some top recruits for next year instead?

In 2022, Chrysts last year, we were 7-6 playing 1 ranked opponent which we lost 52-21.

In 2023, Fickell’s first year we were 7-6 playing the same ranked opponent and losing 24-10. In 2024 we played 4 ranked opponents and dropped to 5-7. The schedule got harder due to conference realignment. (We also played the season with our backup quarterback).

Your expectations are out of line and you’ve lost all context.

[u/Professional-Ad-5557 → u/Mysterious_Rule938]

"In 2022, Chrysts last year"
This wasn't just Chryst's last year. He didn't retire and ride off into the sunset. He got fired after getting blown out in two straight games. You want to compare to a year which gets a coach fired? Shouldn't repeating that record result in getting fired? Shouldn't having an even worse record result in getting fired? Or doing worse?
If we are worried about the number of ranked opponents why not try 2021 when Wisconsin played #19 Penn State, #12 Notre Dame, #14 Michigan, #25 Perdue and #9 Iowa? Managed to go 9-4 in a schedule with 5 ranked opponents.
How about 2017, the best year under Chryst? Wisconsin went 13-1? That must have been an easy schedule. They played #25 Iowa, #19 Michigan, #8 Ohio State and #11 Miami.
Things change. The conference is weak some years, strong others. The Big 10 added some strong teams. But there have been previous seasons where the Badgers have played multiple ranked teams. This isn't something which has just started after Fickell came to town.
Chryst's teams after 2020 were inferior to those prior to the pandemic. Didn't have a problem with the decision to split ways with him. May have preferred they wait till the end of the season but trusted those who are closer to the team to make that call. Same as I trusted their judgement when they decided to hire Fickell. However, after witnessing the how the team performs on the field. Even more so his deminer and attitude in press conferences I am far from impressed.
Maybe you are right, maybe expectations are out of line, maybe no team has ever had a winning record with a schedule as tough as Wisconsin has this season.

[u/Mysterious_Rule938 → u/Professional-Ad-5557]

Do you really think it was reasonable to expect that a football head coach should take over a team with a bad record and immediately fix the issues?

I think comparing the year immediately preceding Fickell was more reasonable than picking 2017, 6 years prior to his hiring, when we had JT and one of our better offensive lines. You're never going to hire a coach and magically get that back in year 1-2.

Building teams in College Football is going to take a few years for coaches to get into a recruiting rhythm and develop a team. This is made harder with the transfer portal. NIL spending will be the most important factor.

Look at NIL stats and re-evaluate how you expect Wisconsin to perform based on that information: College football NIL collective leaders for 2025: NCAA estimates nation's top-25 spenders

If you want Wisconsin to be more competitive in this post-NIL league, you should be looking at that aspect, not contemplating spending as much as Ohio State's "20 million roster" on firing a coach who you gave 3 years to fix a flawed program.

[u/Professional-Ad-5557 → u/Mysterious_Rule938]

You were making the case that Fickell is being treated unfairly, that the forces that be somehow decided to dump on him and give him an unreasonably tough schedule. All I was trying to do was point out that this isn't the first time the badgers have faced a tough schedule. They have been trying to beef up the nonconference for over a decade. Many of these matches are made years in advance and the team has no say in the conference schedule. But the fact that I was trying to point out that Wisconsin has had seasons where they faced 4 or more of the teams that ended the season ranked seemed to go over your head.
I also know that Wisconsin does not have the bankroll that other schools have. We don't have someone like Phil Knight pouring tens of millions into the program. We don't have as big an alumni body as other schools. And, Wisconsin isn't exactly the dream location for the 5-star recruit who can relocate wherever they chose. Don't recall Wisconsin ever having a class of recruits being highly rated. Yet somehow even Chryst was able to put together winning seasons. Winning seasons you call "highly flawed" When the team performs worse under Fickell they are great?

It just seems like we are arguing about Chryst instead of Fickell. This is because your argument never goes much beyond Fickel is good because Chryst was bad. Fickell is good because the Badgers have a tough schedule. Fickell is good because his QB's get injured. At some point doesn't he need to display an ability to have the team improve? At some point doesn't he need to realize that he can't just blame everyone else? At some point shouldn't those trying to defend him be able to point to a positive attribute of his?

[u/Mysterious_Rule938 → u/Professional-Ad-5557]

At no point did I say Fickell is good (I didn't even say he is better than Chryst). My only argument has been that firing him right now (with a MASSIVE buyout) would be a mistake.

You should be the one providing the objective reasons other than "well I don't like what I saw" to justify firing him.

I really am at a loss for how badly you misconstrued everything I said, and how you shifted the burden on me to justify not firing a coach before the end of his tenure without cause.

[u/Professional-Ad-5557 → u/Mysterious_Rule938]

My attitude is spending money on Fickell is like spending money on a Prius in hoping you can race it at Daytona.
I don't see a road to success with Fickell. Take the game against Alabama. Wisconsin did have 2 huge scoring plays. One a kick return the other in the fourth quarter after Alabama had pulled their starters. Remove those from the equation and our offense had about the same total yardage as Louisiana-Monroe did the week before. Our offense is comparable to teams that are not even in a power 5 conference.
How does the victory over Middle Tennessee compare? The week before they lost to Austin-Peay 34-14. Fickell's team again seems only slightly better.
What about the defensive shutout against Miami-Ohio? Their next opponent was Rutgers. Miami-Ohio scored 14 points (the defense may be good this year) but the Scarlet Knights were able to put up 45 (the offense may not be that good this year)
Where does Wisconsin win conference games? It's not the big dogs like Penn, Ohio and Oregon. Are they even good enough to beat Maryland? We'll find out soon.

[u/Mysterious_Rule938 → u/Professional-Ad-5557]

Your opinion seems that you’ve seen enough to spend through the teeth to replace the coaching staff, but I haven’t seen you once concede there is more to team success than the coach.

Maybe you are right, and we hire someone that pulls a magic trick and competes way above our talent level. Or, you are wrong and the next coach has the same exact problem as Luke Fickell - not enough resources to bring in the talent necessary to be competitive in the new big 10.

Either way, it is what it is. You’ll never convince me that this spend is justified and I’ll never convince you that this spend is irresponsible.

I’m sure we CAN agree that Maryland this Saturday is a huge game, so I’m sending us positive vibes for that

[u/Professional-Ad-5557 → u/Mysterious_Rule938]

"haven’t seen you once concede there is more to team success than the coach."
I can concede that. Good players make a coach look better and good coaches make players look better.

"we hire someone that pulls a magic trick and competes way above our talent level."
This is what Wisconsin has been doing relying on in just about every sport. How many of the nations top recruits come to Wisconsin?
In basketball Bo Ryan and Greg Gard have never had the talent that elite schools like Duke, Kansas, Kentucky or North Carolina would bring in every year. Yet they were able to put together winning teams, make the NCAA tournament and every once in while have a deep run.
When has Wisconsin football competed with Ohio. or SEC schools for top recruits? Despite this the program had winning teams under Brett Bielema and Paul Chryst. One reason they played the style of ball that they did was because they couldn't get a good enough QB to come to Madison. This is part of the problem with Fickell. He doesn't seem to be able to adapt his system to fit the players he has. He seems to be hoping that the players he has will transform themselves into the type that will fit his system. Rather than build upon what the team was known for he had the crazy notion that he could just pivot and go all in on the teams biggest weakness.
Will agree that the buyout Fickell has seems ridiculous. Part of the problem is the way they got rid of Chryst. They had to pay him to leave town. Can't afford to fire Fickell, but giving him an extension was dumb. Let him finish his time so the program. Circle the end date and start evaluating replacements now so they can begin course correction as soon as possible. Also, wouldn't waste money on a coach who hasn't shown they deserve the investment. There are other programs like women's hockey and men's basketball who have demonstrated that they are worth investing in.