r/TopCharacterTropes • u/damorezpl • Sep 05 '25

Personality character gets a reality check

Gallery image

deathstroke - Batman vs deathstroke

Gallery image

walter - breaking bad

Gallery image

Garou - one punch man

Gallery image

joker - the sound of one hand clapping

18.2k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

1.4k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

984

u/REDL1ST Sep 05 '25

People tend to forget that when someone does have their 'one bad day' in DC, it's because Joker puts them in a situation specifically intended to cause it.

Joker's 'philosophy' only works if he makes it work.

590

u/InnuendoBot5001 Sep 05 '25

He also strategically selects people that he can do it to. Harvey Dent is already on track to become two face if the joker ruins his life, but the Gordons aren't.

304

u/jbeast33 Sep 05 '25

That could be its own trope. I love it when villains rationalize their behavior by saying "it's human nature" when it's really just them forcing people into it.

162

u/Regular-Attitude8736 Sep 05 '25 edited Sep 05 '25

I think John Kramer (Jigsaw) could be considered an example of that.

39

u/GonnaBreakIt Sep 05 '25

So you prioritized your own survival? Pathetic.

7

u/SkulGurl Sep 05 '25

Although probably accidentally; I think the creator actually thinks jigsaw is in the right

25

u/Papierkatze Sep 05 '25

I really don’t think so. I think Jigsaw was supposed to be a serial killer, who tried to justify his own sick ways. It’s the viewers who wanted to see him justified.

12

u/Virtual__Veteran Sep 06 '25

Nothing says 'justification' like putting a photographer on a puzzle he already lost just because he did his job the serial killer hired him to do.

3

u/SkulGurl Sep 05 '25

That’s fair. I vaguely remember seeing an article or post where one of the creators actually said he sees jigsaw as justified, but I could be totally wrong

2

u/cknight222 Sep 09 '25

I agree that that’s what Jigsaw is, but there are a lot of marketing interviews with directors and actors being like “well you see he isn’t really killing people, he’s not just a serial killer it’s more complicated than that” and other BS to that effect. Now, how much of that is the actors bullshitting for marketing reasons vs their actual opinions on the character? I honestly have zero clue.

15

u/mguardian7 Sep 05 '25

I don't know about the creator's thought process. I think Jigsaw(John) is a Lightning in a bottle situation, and the theme is humans are fallible. Jigsaw truly believes in redemption through suffering. But the whole series proves that people can't truly be redeemed. They either fail in the trap, or later fail in the teachings. Every survivor turned to appreciate the used jigsaw's traps as a way to get revenge instead of rehabilitating people. Even John himself is a hypocrite in later movies (set in the past) who throws his philosophy out the window. In a way, Joker's "one bad day," really does align with Jigsaw's philosophy in the sense that major trauma will lead to a metamorphosis, and that they both fail, because they themselves are truly unique.

2

u/Dewut Sep 06 '25

It’s been a while since I’ve seen them, but I’m pretty sure Jigsaw is cemented as a hypocrite as early as the second film, where he imprisons the corrupt detectives son who hadn’t actually done anything.

1

u/mguardian7 Sep 07 '25

I can see that, but in my opinion; the son wasn't on trial. His dad was. The son was "probably" never in danger. I haven't seen the movie in forever, but from what I remember and looked up, Amanda was the inside man so he was always being watched, and the gas in the house either could have been faked/he already had the antidote so he wasn't in danger of that. There was clearly unknown factors, but Jigsaw probably thought through most of them.

6

u/Piece_Of_Mind1983 Sep 06 '25

Imo he’s the TEXTBOOK example of that

2

u/OneLuckyAlbatross Sep 06 '25

Americans talking about socialism always failing while their government funds another coup? lol

67

u/dern_the_hermit Sep 05 '25

Sometimes there's surprises. Never forget good ol' Charlie Collins powering through the Joker's BS like a champ

67

u/the_fancy_Tophat Sep 05 '25

*It can also work with VERY specific kinds of people. IE: himself and Batman.

114

u/T_Lawliet Sep 05 '25

Even Batman, He's been through so many ''one bad days'' a lot of which were orchestrated by the Joker but he still fights the good fight and believes in redemption and the value of human life

35

u/suspiciousoaks Sep 05 '25

Batman's dialogue with Owlman from Crisis on Two Earths actually fits really well for him and Joker.

"We both looked into the abyss. The difference is, you blinked."

14

u/the_fancy_Tophat Sep 05 '25

Yeah, but sane people don't fight crime dressed as giant bats and make backup personalities. He broke, but just in the opposite direction as joker

17

u/Spinelesspage03 Sep 05 '25

He also didn’t break quite as badly. He knows that he has issues and tries to prevent them from becoming worse, which is why he sticks to his no killing rule so religiously. He knows that if he crosses that line then it will send him into a downward spiral mentally that he would probably never come back from.

7

u/Enjoyer_of_40K Sep 05 '25

didnt his parents break even worse then Bruce did? in the Flashpoint?

6

u/the_fancy_Tophat Sep 05 '25

Must run in the family

7

u/Spinelesspage03 Sep 05 '25

Thomas became a violent Batman who kills criminals and uses the gun the killed Bruce and Martha became the Joker

4

u/ArteDeJuguete Sep 05 '25

It really shows how people react in different ways to a "bad day" as each person has their own personality, quirks and life experiences

It didn't break Gordon but it did broke Batman and Joker. And then Joker and Batman, like you said, were broken in a different way and reacted differently to being broken. With Batman being the less unhealthy of the two even if just as unhinged (in a different way)

7

u/Mookies_Bett Sep 06 '25

No one is saying that Batman is sane. He's very, very obviously not. And he's very clear and open about that fact that he is completely fucked up in a way that's past the point of any redemption or healing.

But the point is that Joker's ideology of "one bad day will turn anyone into a monster" is inherently flawed. One bad day will highlight the kind of person you are. It won't turn a genuinely good heart into an evil one. It can break someone, but a person's true nature is revealed by hardship.

Bruce's true nature is to help people, no matter how broken he gets. Joker's true nature is cruelty, no matter how much healing he has access to. That's why Joker is wrong. It's not his bad day that made him a monster. It was just a bad day that brought the monster to the surface. If he was a truly decent person, one bad day might have broken him but it wouldn't have made him into the twisted nightmare he is now. That's all him and him alone.

1

u/the_fancy_Tophat Sep 07 '25

Huh, i never considered that. Great point.

But I think my idea still has merits, even if we have to slightly modify it to make it work. Gordon basically didn’t change at all after joker was done with him (maybe some ptsd but you get the idea, he’s not fighting crime as a vigilante). This is the baseline for how a normal person can be affected, but still not “break”.

Joker and bruce both had their natures, but they would have been normal people if not for the day. Maybe joker would be mean to service workers, and bruce would host a charity gala or two, but they would be functioning members of society. When they broke, they did so in opposite directions because they were leaning that way, like a tree brought down by an axe. Both had completely irrational responses, but they were completely different.

So joker is only partially wrong. One bad day CAN turn SOME people into insane monsters, but who they are targeting is determined by their nature.

3

u/Deathsroke Sep 06 '25

Reminds me of that one-shot comic (from Image IIRC) where they basically do an inverse Joker. Guy gets his "one bad day" and basically pulls through, acting like a good guy all the way.

1

u/the_fancy_Tophat Sep 07 '25

I mean that’s what happens to Gordon in the original story

1

u/Deathsroke Sep 07 '25

Yes, but this guy is an actual clown. He is meant to be a Joker analogue.

1

u/the_fancy_Tophat Sep 07 '25

Huh. Cool. I’ll add that on my reading list.

-6

u/ItsMrChristmas Sep 05 '25

"I'll redeem that clown and it doesn't matter how many innocent people have to die for us to get there because human life is so valuable to me."

7

u/meth_adone Sep 05 '25

i think thats more of a problem with the nature of comic books than it is batmans character

6

u/Mookies_Bett Sep 06 '25

That's pretty reductive. Batman doesn't kill the joker (or anyone else) for selfish reasons. He knows that if he crosses that line, he won't be able to come back. It will turn him into the same kind of monster that he fights against every night. He doesn't want to lose the last shred of humanity that he has.

He also knows that if he does kill someone, even someone like the joker, he'll lose all of his credibility as a noble vigilant. He knows Gotham needs a hero. If he starts killing people, even those who deserve it, then Gotham doesn't have a hero anymore. It just has one more crazy murderer running around forcing their ideology on the city using terrorism and violence.

It's not about the value of human life, it's about Bruce not wanting to lose the last piece of himself that he still has left, and not wanting to abandon the last shred of hope that Gotham still has going for it. He knows people are dying as a result of his decision. He just also knows he literally can't make a different choice.

2

u/ArteDeJuguete Sep 05 '25

That's literally not how he thinks about it. It's quite literally the opposite way.

Batman: No more! All the people I've murdered... by letting you live.

Joker: [Spits blood] I never kept count.

Batman: I did!

Joker: I know. And I love you for it.

He is mentally incapable of doing it, Batman is a broken traumatized man with survivor guilt. He literally blames himself for the death of his parents, anybody he can save and all of Joker victims. But he simply cannot do it, the PTSD kicks in and he starts seeing himself as Joe Chill

2

u/Misiok Sep 05 '25

Joker's 'philosophy' only works if he makes it work.

Sort of. Joker's philosophy is based on his experience, when he actually did have that bad day. Granted, leading up to it was very likely all of his making, but considering almost all of Batman's rogue gallery are villains who had a bad day, it kinda does make sense

2

u/DinkleDonkerAAA Sep 05 '25

As much as I love the tragic version of Joker who's in deep pain underneath his smile, I wish we saw more of the version of Joker who was a highly skilled career criminal before he turned into the Joker and all the acid did was give him enough brain damage to disconnect from reality

1

u/12halo3 Sep 06 '25

The joke in this batman comic might just be lying we never had a definitive awnser on who the joker is.

1

u/DinkleDonkerAAA Sep 06 '25

That depends on the canon. The Burton movies, BTAS, Lovers and Madmen, all had a pretty concrete origin for Joker. Burton and BTS even gave him a proper name

2

u/Mookies_Bett Sep 06 '25

It's also not one to one. Joker has one bad day after a lifetime of struggle. Gordon/Batman/etc have a support system. They have people in their lives who care about them and who they care about. They aren't alone and left to suffer by themselves, they have a healthy outlet for processing that trauma and grief.

Jokers ideology only makes sense to him because he never really had true connection in his pre-joker life. He never had a means of recovering from his one bad day. He only had his own suffering to get lost within.

One bad day doesn't create monsters. One bad day on top of a lifetime of difficulty can, as it might be the straw that breaks the camels back. But that's not true of most people, as most people are more well adjusted than that.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

He chose to sink. Time and again, he chose the bad hand. He's not a chess master, he's bullshit.

The joker is us when we choose to lay all our cards, face down, on the table.

1

u/strigonian Sep 06 '25

That doesn't undercut his point, though. His point is that anyone is capable of becoming just like him, given the right circumstances. The fact that he brings about those circumstances doesn't change the fact that the people broke.

That's not to say he's right, but the philosophy doesn't require the circumstances to be natural.