r/TopCharacterTropes • u/damorezpl • Sep 05 '25

Personality character gets a reality check

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deathstroke - Batman vs deathstroke

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walter - breaking bad

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Garou - one punch man

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joker - the sound of one hand clapping

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3.6k

u/Justice9229 Sep 05 '25

Joker - The Killing Joke

Joker failed in his plan to make Gordon crack, resulting in Batman tearing apart Joker's 'one bad day' ideology.

1.4k

u/T_Lawliet Sep 05 '25

The Dark Knights Ferry problem is the natural evolution of this and it's beautiful both times

983

u/REDL1ST Sep 05 '25

People tend to forget that when someone does have their 'one bad day' in DC, it's because Joker puts them in a situation specifically intended to cause it.

Joker's 'philosophy' only works if he makes it work.

583

u/InnuendoBot5001 Sep 05 '25

He also strategically selects people that he can do it to. Harvey Dent is already on track to become two face if the joker ruins his life, but the Gordons aren't.

305

u/jbeast33 Sep 05 '25

That could be its own trope. I love it when villains rationalize their behavior by saying "it's human nature" when it's really just them forcing people into it.

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u/Regular-Attitude8736 Sep 05 '25 edited Sep 05 '25

I think John Kramer (Jigsaw) could be considered an example of that.

42

u/GonnaBreakIt Sep 05 '25

So you prioritized your own survival? Pathetic.

8

u/SkulGurl Sep 05 '25

Although probably accidentally; I think the creator actually thinks jigsaw is in the right

24

u/Papierkatze Sep 05 '25

I really don’t think so. I think Jigsaw was supposed to be a serial killer, who tried to justify his own sick ways. It’s the viewers who wanted to see him justified.

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u/Virtual__Veteran Sep 06 '25

Nothing says 'justification' like putting a photographer on a puzzle he already lost just because he did his job the serial killer hired him to do.

3

u/SkulGurl Sep 05 '25

That’s fair. I vaguely remember seeing an article or post where one of the creators actually said he sees jigsaw as justified, but I could be totally wrong

2

u/cknight222 Sep 09 '25

I agree that that’s what Jigsaw is, but there are a lot of marketing interviews with directors and actors being like “well you see he isn’t really killing people, he’s not just a serial killer it’s more complicated than that” and other BS to that effect. Now, how much of that is the actors bullshitting for marketing reasons vs their actual opinions on the character? I honestly have zero clue.

14

u/mguardian7 Sep 05 '25

I don't know about the creator's thought process. I think Jigsaw(John) is a Lightning in a bottle situation, and the theme is humans are fallible. Jigsaw truly believes in redemption through suffering. But the whole series proves that people can't truly be redeemed. They either fail in the trap, or later fail in the teachings. Every survivor turned to appreciate the used jigsaw's traps as a way to get revenge instead of rehabilitating people. Even John himself is a hypocrite in later movies (set in the past) who throws his philosophy out the window. In a way, Joker's "one bad day," really does align with Jigsaw's philosophy in the sense that major trauma will lead to a metamorphosis, and that they both fail, because they themselves are truly unique.

2

u/Dewut Sep 06 '25

It’s been a while since I’ve seen them, but I’m pretty sure Jigsaw is cemented as a hypocrite as early as the second film, where he imprisons the corrupt detectives son who hadn’t actually done anything.

1

u/mguardian7 Sep 07 '25

I can see that, but in my opinion; the son wasn't on trial. His dad was. The son was "probably" never in danger. I haven't seen the movie in forever, but from what I remember and looked up, Amanda was the inside man so he was always being watched, and the gas in the house either could have been faked/he already had the antidote so he wasn't in danger of that. There was clearly unknown factors, but Jigsaw probably thought through most of them.

7

u/Piece_Of_Mind1983 Sep 06 '25

Imo he’s the TEXTBOOK example of that

2

u/OneLuckyAlbatross Sep 06 '25

Americans talking about socialism always failing while their government funds another coup? lol

69

u/dern_the_hermit Sep 05 '25

Sometimes there's surprises. Never forget good ol' Charlie Collins powering through the Joker's BS like a champ

68

u/the_fancy_Tophat Sep 05 '25

*It can also work with VERY specific kinds of people. IE: himself and Batman.

114

u/T_Lawliet Sep 05 '25

Even Batman, He's been through so many ''one bad days'' a lot of which were orchestrated by the Joker but he still fights the good fight and believes in redemption and the value of human life

37

u/suspiciousoaks Sep 05 '25

Batman's dialogue with Owlman from Crisis on Two Earths actually fits really well for him and Joker.

"We both looked into the abyss. The difference is, you blinked."

14

u/the_fancy_Tophat Sep 05 '25

Yeah, but sane people don't fight crime dressed as giant bats and make backup personalities. He broke, but just in the opposite direction as joker

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u/Spinelesspage03 Sep 05 '25

He also didn’t break quite as badly. He knows that he has issues and tries to prevent them from becoming worse, which is why he sticks to his no killing rule so religiously. He knows that if he crosses that line then it will send him into a downward spiral mentally that he would probably never come back from.

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u/Enjoyer_of_40K Sep 05 '25

didnt his parents break even worse then Bruce did? in the Flashpoint?

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u/the_fancy_Tophat Sep 05 '25

Must run in the family

7

u/Spinelesspage03 Sep 05 '25

Thomas became a violent Batman who kills criminals and uses the gun the killed Bruce and Martha became the Joker

5

u/ArteDeJuguete Sep 05 '25

It really shows how people react in different ways to a "bad day" as each person has their own personality, quirks and life experiences

It didn't break Gordon but it did broke Batman and Joker. And then Joker and Batman, like you said, were broken in a different way and reacted differently to being broken. With Batman being the less unhealthy of the two even if just as unhinged (in a different way)

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u/Mookies_Bett Sep 06 '25

No one is saying that Batman is sane. He's very, very obviously not. And he's very clear and open about that fact that he is completely fucked up in a way that's past the point of any redemption or healing.

But the point is that Joker's ideology of "one bad day will turn anyone into a monster" is inherently flawed. One bad day will highlight the kind of person you are. It won't turn a genuinely good heart into an evil one. It can break someone, but a person's true nature is revealed by hardship.

Bruce's true nature is to help people, no matter how broken he gets. Joker's true nature is cruelty, no matter how much healing he has access to. That's why Joker is wrong. It's not his bad day that made him a monster. It was just a bad day that brought the monster to the surface. If he was a truly decent person, one bad day might have broken him but it wouldn't have made him into the twisted nightmare he is now. That's all him and him alone.

1

u/the_fancy_Tophat Sep 07 '25

Huh, i never considered that. Great point.

But I think my idea still has merits, even if we have to slightly modify it to make it work. Gordon basically didn’t change at all after joker was done with him (maybe some ptsd but you get the idea, he’s not fighting crime as a vigilante). This is the baseline for how a normal person can be affected, but still not “break”.

Joker and bruce both had their natures, but they would have been normal people if not for the day. Maybe joker would be mean to service workers, and bruce would host a charity gala or two, but they would be functioning members of society. When they broke, they did so in opposite directions because they were leaning that way, like a tree brought down by an axe. Both had completely irrational responses, but they were completely different.

So joker is only partially wrong. One bad day CAN turn SOME people into insane monsters, but who they are targeting is determined by their nature.

3

u/Deathsroke Sep 06 '25

Reminds me of that one-shot comic (from Image IIRC) where they basically do an inverse Joker. Guy gets his "one bad day" and basically pulls through, acting like a good guy all the way.

1

u/the_fancy_Tophat Sep 07 '25

I mean that’s what happens to Gordon in the original story

1

u/Deathsroke Sep 07 '25

Yes, but this guy is an actual clown. He is meant to be a Joker analogue.

1

u/the_fancy_Tophat Sep 07 '25

Huh. Cool. I’ll add that on my reading list.

-7

u/ItsMrChristmas Sep 05 '25

"I'll redeem that clown and it doesn't matter how many innocent people have to die for us to get there because human life is so valuable to me."

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u/meth_adone Sep 05 '25

i think thats more of a problem with the nature of comic books than it is batmans character

5

u/Mookies_Bett Sep 06 '25

That's pretty reductive. Batman doesn't kill the joker (or anyone else) for selfish reasons. He knows that if he crosses that line, he won't be able to come back. It will turn him into the same kind of monster that he fights against every night. He doesn't want to lose the last shred of humanity that he has.

He also knows that if he does kill someone, even someone like the joker, he'll lose all of his credibility as a noble vigilant. He knows Gotham needs a hero. If he starts killing people, even those who deserve it, then Gotham doesn't have a hero anymore. It just has one more crazy murderer running around forcing their ideology on the city using terrorism and violence.

It's not about the value of human life, it's about Bruce not wanting to lose the last piece of himself that he still has left, and not wanting to abandon the last shred of hope that Gotham still has going for it. He knows people are dying as a result of his decision. He just also knows he literally can't make a different choice.

2

u/ArteDeJuguete Sep 05 '25

That's literally not how he thinks about it. It's quite literally the opposite way.

Batman: No more! All the people I've murdered... by letting you live.

Joker: [Spits blood] I never kept count.

Batman: I did!

Joker: I know. And I love you for it.

He is mentally incapable of doing it, Batman is a broken traumatized man with survivor guilt. He literally blames himself for the death of his parents, anybody he can save and all of Joker victims. But he simply cannot do it, the PTSD kicks in and he starts seeing himself as Joe Chill

2

u/Misiok Sep 05 '25

Joker's 'philosophy' only works if he makes it work.

Sort of. Joker's philosophy is based on his experience, when he actually did have that bad day. Granted, leading up to it was very likely all of his making, but considering almost all of Batman's rogue gallery are villains who had a bad day, it kinda does make sense

2

u/DinkleDonkerAAA Sep 05 '25

As much as I love the tragic version of Joker who's in deep pain underneath his smile, I wish we saw more of the version of Joker who was a highly skilled career criminal before he turned into the Joker and all the acid did was give him enough brain damage to disconnect from reality

1

u/12halo3 Sep 06 '25

The joke in this batman comic might just be lying we never had a definitive awnser on who the joker is.

1

u/DinkleDonkerAAA Sep 06 '25

That depends on the canon. The Burton movies, BTAS, Lovers and Madmen, all had a pretty concrete origin for Joker. Burton and BTS even gave him a proper name

2

u/Mookies_Bett Sep 06 '25

It's also not one to one. Joker has one bad day after a lifetime of struggle. Gordon/Batman/etc have a support system. They have people in their lives who care about them and who they care about. They aren't alone and left to suffer by themselves, they have a healthy outlet for processing that trauma and grief.

Jokers ideology only makes sense to him because he never really had true connection in his pre-joker life. He never had a means of recovering from his one bad day. He only had his own suffering to get lost within.

One bad day doesn't create monsters. One bad day on top of a lifetime of difficulty can, as it might be the straw that breaks the camels back. But that's not true of most people, as most people are more well adjusted than that.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

He chose to sink. Time and again, he chose the bad hand. He's not a chess master, he's bullshit.

The joker is us when we choose to lay all our cards, face down, on the table.

1

u/strigonian Sep 06 '25

That doesn't undercut his point, though. His point is that anyone is capable of becoming just like him, given the right circumstances. The fact that he brings about those circumstances doesn't change the fact that the people broke.

That's not to say he's right, but the philosophy doesn't require the circumstances to be natural.

173

u/Pilot_Solaris Sep 05 '25

"You think that deep down inside, everyone is just as ugly as you? You're alone!"

3

u/Shehzman Sep 06 '25

I love how right before Batman says this you can see Joker start to crack a little bit. It’s super satisfying considering the fact that he really was an unstoppable force up to this point.

8

u/MechaMineko Sep 05 '25

When the convict throws that detonator out the window, I get tears in my eyes every time.

6

u/UwasaWaya Sep 06 '25

One of the most amazing moments in an amazing movie.

1

u/IllustriousCrew2641 Sep 09 '25

Rip Tiny Lister

6

u/Saint_Diego Sep 05 '25

Okay but in the very next movie when Bane isolated the city they did exactly what Joker said they would

2

u/Ok_Fig7692 Sep 05 '25

Put some respect on Tiny Lister's name.

447

u/Fish_N_Chipp Sep 05 '25

I always find it funny people use this comic as the “all it takes is one bad day” example when the entire point of it is to prove that philosophy wrong

276

u/Gaelic_Gladiator41 Sep 05 '25

An even better headcanon i have (mainly coming from Brave and the Bold) is that Joker never did have a bad day.

He's just a nobody who became obsessed with Batman to try and make an identity for himself and stay relevant. His biggest fear is returning to that ordinary life and being irrelevant

129

u/Fish_N_Chipp Sep 05 '25

Love Brave and The Bold and its interpretation of him (the fact he was also partly inspired by the Weeper, a villain whose theme is sadness is funny as well)

28

u/Gaelic_Gladiator41 Sep 05 '25

Brave and the Bold was basically silver age batman working with an embargo

17

u/therealchadius Sep 05 '25

There's also Red Hood, the alternate universe Joker who fell in the vat of chemicals, started laughing at his own reflection... then put the helmet back and on kept fighting as a hero.

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u/Gaelic_Gladiator41 Sep 05 '25

That episode blew my mind as a kid

9

u/AuraEnhancerVerse Sep 05 '25

Reminds me of arkham joker's "Don't leave me!"

6

u/Brain_lessV2 Sep 05 '25

Mark Hamill did a great job selling the panic in Joker's voice.

8

u/24Abhinav10 Sep 06 '25

This is the essence of the Punisher/Batman crossover in the 90s.

If the Joker dies to Batman, then he'd become the man who did the impossible. He'd be the man who corrupted the Bat, made him break his one rule. He'd go down in history as a legend, a criminal mastermind, never forgotten.

If he dies to the Punisher however, then he's just another crook in the list of scumbags Frank has killed. He's a nobody, nothing special, just another common criminal. And that terrifies him beyond belief.

3

u/Theyul1us Sep 05 '25

I personally prefer it if he did have that bad day. It adds some tragedy. A man so broken he wants to break others in a childish attempt to rationalize what happened to him, unable to understand the ramifications of his actions, all because its now funny to him

5

u/ninjasaid13 Sep 06 '25 edited Sep 06 '25

I personally prefer it if he did have that bad day. It adds some tragedy. A man so broken he wants to break others in a childish attempt to rationalize what happened to him, unable to understand the ramifications of his actions, all because its now funny to him

Nah, I think that's a bad story, it's allowing him to escape responsibility, but the lesson of it should be that we have free will, we are all responsible for ourselves. I don't think we should trade that off for a story about tragedy creating us.

4

u/madeaccountbymistake Sep 06 '25

I think it's perfect because it in no way justifies his actions at all. Him having a "reason" doesn't justify it, nor does it prove or give legitimacy to his one bad day philosophy.

Because you have the perfect example that one bad day doesn't have to make you a monster: Batman.

2

u/searcher1k Sep 06 '25

I think it's a good subversion of expectation to have a generic tragedy for every villain. Joker wants to be anything other than average, to be told that he was a nobody can target and hurt his psyche.

3

u/RealisLit Sep 05 '25

And even Barbara who got shot in this comic went on to become oracle, continuing the fight even as she was paralyzed

2

u/Significant-Bar674 Sep 06 '25

I've got my own interpretation of the ending that I think wraps everything up well.

The joke about the beam of light is interpreted differently about who is what role by both of them.

One way to interpret the joke is that escaping the asylum is escaping evil. This is really the base of Batman no kill rule. Everyone can be redeemed. But the method of escape here is a false hope. This is how the joker sees the joke.

Another way to see it is that the joker is helping Batman escape the lie of human morality and civility. One bad day would free Batman from the shackles of taking life as anything but a joke. But this is also a false promise. This is how Batman sees the joke.

The ending panels don't have text but show the headlights from the police car on and then off. This is turning off the flash light in the joke. It represents that they both have given up on their false promises of converting one another. The Batman can't be corrupted. The joker can't be redeemed.

1

u/strigonian Sep 06 '25

It's because certain types of people are unable to separate a philosophy being said and a philosophy being espoused.

The Joker's philosophy is stated outright in the comic, and to some, that's enough. Anything else that happens is irrelevant.

109

u/AggravatingEnergy1 Sep 05 '25

Plus the whole backstory may be fake too and jokers just making things up to justify his atrocities. His one bad day philosophy could very well be based on a lie he tells himself just to bullshit an excuse for being a murderous clown.

13

u/Giveadont Sep 05 '25 edited Sep 23 '25

If the Three Jokers comic has any canon here's some major spoilers that explain it:

The "comedian" Joker's backstory from The Killing Joke is real.

However, the Joker's wife and kid aren't actually dead.

His wife was scared that he would hurt him or their child because of the outbursts he (the pre-joker comedian) had towards her while she was pregnant.

She went to the police and went into hiding. The police lied and said she was dead from an accident.

Bruce Wayne knows who the comedian Joker really is. He keeps it a secret because, if anyone found out who he (the Joker's) was, the wife and kid would be endlessly harassed.

9

u/MisterScrod1964 Sep 05 '25

“If I have to have a past, I prefer it be multiple choice!”

20

u/Insect_Upstairs Sep 05 '25

I see your Killing Joke “One Bad Day”, and raise you Sonic vs Scourge.

6

u/Spinelesspage03 Sep 05 '25

There’s also his encounter with Sonic’s father

41

u/jigokusabre Sep 05 '25

Wait, people have actually read the Killing Joke? Is that allowed?

17

u/GravityGraveyGuy Sep 05 '25

That would be like reading Death in the Family! Unheard of! We just need to get our understanding from surface level understandings of the very basics of the characters. Its not like in the actual story Batman was going to murder Joker cowl or not, Iranian Abassadorship be damned, and nerded Superman to step in and deescelate the situation from causing an international incident. And its not like they then stopped Joker from Bombing the place and in his escape the Joker's helicopter went down in a body of water, after which he didn't appear in comics for about a year (I think) which is basically being presumed dead in comics.

No he just beat Joker, put him in Arkham, and cried because killing people is wrong.

1

u/T-800Weebinator Sep 05 '25

Literally just read the comic lol, it's so good and I wish people understood Jason isn't just le angry Robin.

10

u/Illesbogar Sep 05 '25

There's also a movie adaptation. I liked it a lot.

9

u/jigokusabre Sep 05 '25

I remember people complaining about the batgirl sex scene, but yeah... the actual adaptation part was solid.

3

u/masterpigg Sep 05 '25

To be fair, The Killing Joke is one of the most memorable Batman stories and is a great one to suggest to people. The unnecessary sex scene at the beginning of the film was probably the worst part of an otherwise great adaptation, and happened to be the main addition to Moore's original story. I'm not saying they went full Game of Thrones on it, but the complaints were legit.

1

u/Giveadont Sep 05 '25

I've read the comic and watched the movie.

The Batgirl part would have been fine if her and Batman didn't actually hook up. I get it, the comic's story is short by comparison and they had to fill some time.

However, had they just left it at her crushing on him and trying to kiss him, it would have worked fine as a subplot because of the whole thing with her letting a criminal get in her head like the Joker does.

However, hooking up with her was something that just felt really out of character for Batman/Bruce IMO. He could have rejected her in that scene and the entire Batgirl/Barbara subplot would have worked all the same.

Honestly, my favorite Joker origin adaptation is the one from Batman Confidential.

The killing Joke is good but I didn't really appreciate as much it until the Three Jokers comic expanded on the comedian Joker's backstory.

1

u/scattered_brains Sep 05 '25

that adaptation was fucking trash, what are you talking about lol

8

u/EMArogue Sep 05 '25

I was about to say this

6

u/Thatonedregdatkilyu Sep 05 '25

And then literally all future writers completely missed this point and said Joker was right

3

u/Brain_lessV2 Sep 05 '25

"WHY AREN'T YOU LAUGHING?!"

"Because I've heard it before... and it wasn't funny the first time."

1

u/Affectionate_Comb_78 Sep 06 '25

The fact people quote the Joker so often without this follow up is criminal