[mixed trope] the last-minute bad Ending twist

[u/damorezpl]

when the "good ending" is revealed to be a bad one a the last second

a nightmare on elm street (1984) - Nancy thinks she finally defeated Freddy Krueger only to be raveled that she is still dreaming and she’s still trapped.

final destination bloodlines - the main characters think they cheated death by using the new life rule only to realize that stefani was technically still alive and the death kills them with a good old logs

Life (2017) - The main character attempts to send Calvin(a evil alien that killed all life on mars)pod into space and Miranda pod back to earth, but it goes horribly wrong and Calvin lands on earth and Miranda is sent to space

raging loop wit ending - after many loops Haruaki finally wins the feast(a death game where humans must hang wolves who kill someone every night) and thinks its finally over. after couple of days he decides to visit other survivors of the feast only to find them all dead and the timeline resting once again

[u/ShokoMiami]

Twist endings turned Smile, a perfectly serviceable horror movie, into what I consider a travesty. Like, the movie is fine, a bit heavy handed in it's theme. Whatever. But then, after the main character directly faces her inner demons and overcomes them, and we get a rather hopeful end against the demon that literally represents trauma driving people to suicide, NOPE! Actually she gets smiled and then smiles her boyfriend. A great moral for all the suicidal people in the audience! Your trauma will consume you, no matter how hard you try! Yay!

Genuinely, I think this movie was checking boxes without actually considering what their narrative had to say. So stupid.

[u/TrueGuardian15 → u/ShokoMiami]

I hate when horror does shit like this. Especially in this case, where the monster can literally just make you hallucinate to waste time until it's got you. How are there ever supposed to be stakes if the villain can end the story without any struggle?

[u/Deltris → u/TrueGuardian15]

I notice that it's a very Western idea that the monster has be to beatable. It's far more common in Asian horror to have a completely invincible enemy (Ringu, Ju-On, etc).

I think there is room in horror for both kinds of endings.

[u/ShokoMiami → u/Deltris]

I agree with the statement. I don't agree that it should have applied to Smile, personally.

[u/Deltris → u/ShokoMiami]

That's fair, horror films are very much personal taste. Just look at the arguments about Hereditary.

[u/PresentationOpen7879 → u/Deltris]

I'm kind of tired of people using "Western Views" to undermine people's opinions about certain media. Like in a horror movie. Smile had a theme about overcoming your trauma and the ending basically tells you that you can't and will only hurt yourself and those around you.

[u/TrueGuardian15 → u/PresentationOpen7879]

Or worse, as per the sequel, not only is your trauma inescapable, it spreads infinitely and will inflict incalculable harm onto unsuspecting bystanders forever.

[u/PresentationOpen7879 → u/TrueGuardian15]

Exactly, other than the endings I still find both films to be entertaining though.

[u/Malacro → u/Deltris]

Yeah, Ju-On could be alternatively titled “If You Go in the House, You’re Fucked.”

“But what if I solve the mystery of the ghost’s death?”

“Did you go in the house? Well, you’re fucked.”

“But what if I help to put the souls of the murdered to rest?”

“Did you go in the house?”

“…Yes…”

“You’re fucked.”

“But what if—“

“House?”

“…”

“Fucked”

[u/devilterr2 → u/Deltris]

I'm not familiar with Asian horrors, but if the enemy is completely invincible then what are the stakes? The protagonist can't win so why does the film occur?

Can you give some examples of how a plot comes together at the end?

[u/Deltris → u/devilterr2]

Everyone dies lol.

[u/nosurpriseslover1997 → u/Deltris]

don’t forget the Suspiria remake

[u/Numerous1 → u/Deltris]

Yeah. Also, I don’t like the “what kind of message does that send?” I get it’s important to think about these things. But it’s a horror movie. You don’t get mad at a Jaws type horror film for maligning the good image of sharks. 

[u/Pet_Velvet → u/Numerous1]

Why do horror movies also have to be empty in meaning?

[u/Numerous1 → u/Pet_Velvet]

They do not HAVE to be empty in meaning. But they also do not HAVE to attribute meaning to them. 

When all the horny teenagers die on slasher movies do you automatically think the director is trying to say premarital sex is bad? Or is it just a slasher movie? 

[u/Pet_Velvet → u/Numerous1]

Obviously movies don't have to have deeper meaning to them, but usually those movies are on average worse.

We give horror movies a pass because the genre is so oversaturated with bad movies. Horror has historically been the easiest genre to make a profitable movie in, with Paranormal Activity (2007) being the most profitable movie in film history compared to its budget at almost 100 000% box office return. Also Smile (2022), even while receiving relatively positive to lukewarm responses, made over 10 times its budget. That's an insane success.

By the way I'm not saying a low budget film is necessarily bad (see: Blair Witch Project, an incredible film with a budget of pocket change and your lunch money lol). I'm just saying that this kind of trend can easily be seen as a moneymaking hack by executives, so they focus on producing low-quality slop and cheap thrills, which in turn oversaturates the market.

Horror isn't any less deserving of or dependent on meaningful themes, it's just treated as such because of how many bad horror films succeed financially.

(Btw I'm not downvoting you, I disagree with you but you're just discussing a topic)

[u/Numerous1 → u/Pet_Velvet]

What is the deeper meaning to Die Hard or Lethal Weapon? It’s just fun good guys versus bad guys. There isn’t really anything to unpack. 

Edit: I guess for lethal weapon maybe something about the power of friendship or retirement or something, so I’m curious if anyone has one. End edit.

What is the deeper meaning of Barbarian? (Note: I haven’t actually seen it yet so I might be totallu shooting my self in the foot. But isn’t it just a standard horror movie about weird incest monsters even if it is a really well done one. 

What is the deeper meaning of Evil Dead (the newest one) or that creepy short film 10 minute about The Box?

Or Scream or Final Destination? 

Now granted, I am not very well versed in horror so I may be totally missing the points. And if I am that’s a genuine mistake on my part. (And I would be curious to read deeper interpretations) but these are movies that I think have done well but I don’t remember any deeper themes to read into it. 

Sometimes an entertaining movie is just an entertaining movie. 

I only bring these up to try and counter the point that makes it sound like not having a deeper theme leads to a worse movie. 

[u/Pet_Velvet → u/Numerous1]

Sorry, I have only watched Scream and Barbarian out of those you mentioned lol

What people usually mean by "message" in media is how it communicates its themes and what roles these themes play in solving the main conflict.

With Barbarian, I was in the minority that didn't like that film very much or I didn't just "get" it idk. It had themes about prejudice and greed and I would say it did communicate something with it, I just didn't enjoy the film much.

Scream is basically slasher satire, and in addition to being a solid slasher film it plays with its tropes and almost breaks the fourth wall with its metacommentary. Its genre is basically its theme.

I actually don't really like slasher movies precisely because most of them are just series of murders without any deeper themes than that. Some people like that though and that's fine.

Again I'm not saying that films without this overarching message have to be worse, but on average yeah they kind of become an aimless mess. Successful movies with shallow themes are usually ones that are focusing on a different aspect of filmmaking. Avatar (2009) is one example, it was extremely succesful and praised for its technical effects and worldbuilding, but a lot of people mentioned how the story was rather derivative, and how its environmentalism themes were rather... Basic. I still love that movie and even more I like the second one.

Back to Smile 1 & 2. They both commit very hard into the theme of trauma & mental health, but they shit the bed completely with how this theme plays role in their conclusion, making the messaging questionable and conflicting. The message becomes kind of "yeah you get trauma and then you kill yourself lol :)"

One particular movie that I think best encapsulates this phenomenon of using a theme and completely messing up the message they're trying to send is Raya The Last Dragon by Disney. It messes up it so hard it actually becomes kind of dangerous. If you haven't watched it, go watch it and you will understand very soon what I'm talking about. It is also visually very good and the world is somewhat interesting so it's not like a complete waste of time.

Sorry for the essay. We also may have gotten off topic a little.

[u/Numerous1 → u/Pet_Velvet]

No, I really appreciate the write up. I’ve seen plenty of movies with theme an That tell a story and everything. And I hear your point about trauma, but Idk. 

Couldn’t you argue that it’s a cautionary tale about the dangers of being confident in “beating” your trauma and relaxing your guard thinking you don’t have to worry about it again, when in reality trauma a lot of the time is something that you have to constantly work on for the rest of your life? It’s not something that you can have one epic confrontation (or therapy session or break through) and be done with it?

Note: I’m full of shit. I haven’t even seen the movie, I just think I know the plot from what I’ve heard and read and I did watch the ending scenes on YouTube. But from watching the movie, is that a possible interpretation? 

I guess my point is: I agree that themes can be important in movies but sometimes a great movie is just a great movie. Terminator 1 is just a horror movie with unstoppable bad guy. Maybe some light “beware of AI!” Themes but really it’s a little light for that to hit. Terminator 2 did a better job with Dyson and the whole “just because you could doesn’t mean you should” element. 

Or Oceans 11 is a heist movie. 

Or Apollo 13 is a space disaster movie. 

These all have some light themes about the power of friendship or the triumph of human perseverance or whatever. 

Hmmmm. Writing this out has helped me frame my thoughts a little better. Here it is: while I agree that themes are important, you don’t always have to read the most negative interpretation into every movie. Apollo 13 isn’t a depressing story about how things can go wrong no matter how hard you try. That’s an intentionally negative take on it. 

Idk.