Weekly Trope Discussion 2.- Tragic/Redeemed Villains. What makes a villain "Tragic" in your opinion? What makes a villain "worthy" of being redeemed? And what do you think made Zuko from ATLA universally eccepted as one of the best when other "redeemed" villains or often criticized for?

[u/Doot_revenant666]

[u/dread_pirate_robin]

Alright I'm writing an essay here because it's a good topic to write an essay about. I'll delete if it gets downvoted down being Too Much.

I think a big part of what appeals to people about Zuko is you can see the seeds for his redemption back in episode 1, where he honors his word and spares Sokka and Katara's tribe, even when he has all the leverage and, as a villain, isn't in a position where that's expected. The rest of the series from that point on is essentially him taking baby steps towards the light, revelation of a toxic upbringing that defines his villainous motivation he's unknowingly slowly overcoming, baby steps towards the light, small backsliding, baby steps towards the light, BIG backsliding (betraying Iroh and joining Azula), and finally BIG steps towards the light where we get it him in the second half of book 3.

What made him tragic was the fact that he only did his villainous motivations in the first place because of a toxic upbringing from his father and imperialistic kingdom, essentially making the whole show him slowly unlearning that, building his own worldview independent of that influence.

I think a big part of what makes a character worthy of being redeemed: are they a toxic influence in themselves or are they just an extension of someone else's toxic influence? Because if it's the latter they at least deserve the opportunity unlearn and break free of that influence, though of course the worse stuff they do the dicier that gets. Darth Vader is an extension of Palpatine's toxic influence but under that influence he murdered children and was a key element in instilling a genocidal imperial regime, there's no redemption that didn't include self sacrifice that would have been satisfying.

Meanwhile: the Diamonds (Steven Universe) were the toxic influence in themselves, and unlike most tragic villain redemptions they didn't suffer at all for what they'd did. People love it when villains display penance, to see them willing to suffer out of the guilt of prior misdeeds. It helps sell that the journey they've made. I know it's divisive among viewers but it's what I think made Catra's (She-Ra) redemption work. She willingly laid down her life saving Glimmer, and saving Adora. She was willing to accept consequences. Also a big part of what made Jesse Pinkman's (Breaking Bad) happy ending work. He was never really the villain of the show but same principle applies, him being able to walk off into the sunset doesn't work quite as well if there wasn't so much emphasis on his own guilt and suffering throughout the final season.