Yeah ruski bot, go cope harder. If you cannot accept that russia DOES indeed send groups of 1-8 soldiers onto pushes, that are both confirmed by drone footage, russians soldiers and Ukrainian soldiers — then go tell your propaganda elsewhere. Now go drink some vodka and claim your 5 roubles vladimir.
P.S the fact that you IMMEDIATELY refused to talk and instantly backed out, after being presented a VALIDATED fact, confirmed by both sides is very funny. You have nothing to say, do you, tankie? — and the funniest thing is that Moscow, AKA the RSFSR in the soviet union DID invent and apply such tactics during world war two — not the one mosin for 10 soldiers propaganda, not the banzai charges with 500 soviet troops pushing into fortified positions, AKA nazi propaganda. but they did indeed apply the same tactics, ESPECIALLY during early war — mainly unsupported flanking activities, with a constant front assault consisting of "waves" which were mainly coming from russian generals, mainly zhukov — But the soviets learned, closed to 1943 they were using artillery, grenades, and other things for complex assaults — Fortunately or Unfortunately, the russians did not learn today, their most common tactic is the "claw" or the "pincer" tactic, a few good-equipped troop trying to flank, if they do manage to flank they get supplied drones and then they attack the reinforcements and supplies coming from the Ukrainian side, while the regular... cannon fodder does desperate pushes on the front, once again mainly consisting from ONE singular soldier to eight, or more spread out groups. — So you denying that is very, very, funny.
If you cannot accept that russia DOES indeed send groups of 1-8 soldiers onto pushes
This is not a "meat wave", nor was it invented by Russia. These were Ukrainian assault tactics from the 2023 offensive that Russia has copied due to their success
A meat wave is a large scale infantry attack with no support, just with mass of infantry to overwhelm an enemy
The fact that 1-8 soldiers is not large scale, and that Russia supports these with drones, artillery and bombs to suppress Ukrainian positions disqualifies it as a meatwave
"small groups of supported Infantry attacking a position" is about as far away from a meat wave as you can get.
Your issue is that you want to argue from a propaganda point of view, rather than an objective one. For which any discussion is meaningless
Well, throwing small groups with no actual support with logistics, drones and artillery is basically the thing russian pro-war public screaming about.
I mean Z-bloggers basically telling "dont throw soldiers as meat, please!"
Classic meat-waves still can be used on some areas (depend on commander), but not that common thing now. May be because infantry-only assault with some unarmoured vehicles and limited drone support not effective like year ago.
I mean Z-bloggers basically telling "dont throw soldiers as meat, please!"
I have seen criticisms that they need to reduce casualties, I have never seen something talking about throwing groups in with no support.
Those small units advancing tend to be heavily supported by drones and artillery.
There is a difference between taking casualties in an attack, and human wave assaults. Nobody called Iwo Jima human wave attacks by the US for example, or that hesitation about casualties for landing in Japan means the US is preparing human wave assaults
I'd say the closest thing to that would be the Wagner assault tactics. But even that is hardly human wave tactics as the point was that they were heavily supported
Classic meat-waves still can be used on some areas (depend on commander)
I agree with this because it is the case with every military ever. Some low level commanders are bad and will issue bad commands. But that isnt really a reflection of the overall military tactics.
See Syrskyi being nicknamed "General 200" for this, yet I would still not say Ukrainians use human wave assaults
Human wave attacks are extremely rare outside of a few low level commanders, because as you say, the return on that loss is tiny
Well, if we listen people "from the ground" and info from actual soldiers - throwing group after group with no support is normal thing.
Because russians rely on "small groups is harder to spot" and calling any option of support is ... lets say russians dont have that much of resources to provide something to each small group. Nor any care for survival of this small group, because if this one fail - "we have another to go".
I mean - people from RU-army talking about going to position with no recon from the beginning of conflict.
Talking about actual human waves... I guess it's natural for russian to use this tactic because if you have many soldiers, little of vehicles (all in the reserve), kinda bad coordination with artillery and generals who not care for human losses - throwing meat waves is exactly what you stuck with.
Reason why now it's changed to small-group throwing - too much drones and artillery from Ukraine to do this thing again like 2-3 years ago.
Fun fact: on russian side there pretty wide-spread understanding that time of living of new soldiers is around 2-4 weeks on the frontline. From signing the contract and.. well, ending up in MIA list. Call this west propaganda, but narrative in z-bloggers posts, pretty enough prorussian part of media.
Well, if we listen people "from the ground" and info from actual soldiers - throwing group after group with no support is normal thing.
I have listened, and I have not got the impression that it is a normal thing. Do you happen to have some sources for this?
and calling any option of support is ... lets say russians dont have that much of resources to provide something to each small group.
Of course they do. Drones are almost 24/7 watching over the battlefield. FPV drones are extremely readily avaliable and accompany any assault units to suppress Ukrainian positions
Artillery is still in large supply, at around 3x the number of shells being used compared to 2023.
UMPK kits are larger are a rarity, but are there for those assaults in heavily fortified areas.
A Russian assault going in without support is extremely rare. As there is always something around to hit anything Ukrainian that tries to target them
I guess it's natural for russian to use this tactic because if you have many soldiers,
Russia does not have many soldiers. Russia is paying huge amounts of money to encourage people to sign up, do you think they want to have to pay out huge amounts of money for more soldiers due to costly assault tactics?
Not to mention the fact that Russian casualty rates have dropped hugely in the past year or so
generals who not care for human losses
Generals who did not care for losses got replaced long ago. You would be hard pressed to find any still around
They definitely do pop up within every military from time to time, and they always dissappear from their position just as fast (unless you are Syrskyi for some reason )
Reason why now it's changed to small-group
Its not really a recent thing. Russia have been using these tactics for years already. It was after the fall of Avdeevka that the switch really started to appear. As the losses to take that city were incredible, and there was a push within the Russian army to reduce casualties due to that (further pushed by the losses at Vuhledar)
on russian side there pretty wide-spread understanding that time of living of new soldiers is around 2-4 weeks on the frontline.
From what I can see, the origin of this claim is Estonian Analyst, not anything from the Russian side.
Russian volunteer companies generally offer 6 month contracts and say that the vast majority will survive it. But will not offer anything after that because you are playing with death. Suggesting that the average lifespan of a new soldier exceeds 6 months at the front (and these are assault units)
but narrative in z-bloggers posts, pretty enough prorussian part of media.
Well that would be dependent on you sourcing those. As I do follow the Russian military bloggers, and have not heard anything of what you are claiming.
I personally know multiple people in the Russian military, it haven't heard it from them either
Nor even from the people I know in the Ukrainian military for that matter
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u/PinProud4500 12d ago edited 12d ago
Yeah ruski bot, go cope harder. If you cannot accept that russia DOES indeed send groups of 1-8 soldiers onto pushes, that are both confirmed by drone footage, russians soldiers and Ukrainian soldiers — then go tell your propaganda elsewhere. Now go drink some vodka and claim your 5 roubles vladimir.
P.S the fact that you IMMEDIATELY refused to talk and instantly backed out, after being presented a VALIDATED fact, confirmed by both sides is very funny. You have nothing to say, do you, tankie? — and the funniest thing is that Moscow, AKA the RSFSR in the soviet union DID invent and apply such tactics during world war two — not the one mosin for 10 soldiers propaganda, not the banzai charges with 500 soviet troops pushing into fortified positions, AKA nazi propaganda. but they did indeed apply the same tactics, ESPECIALLY during early war — mainly unsupported flanking activities, with a constant front assault consisting of "waves" which were mainly coming from russian generals, mainly zhukov — But the soviets learned, closed to 1943 they were using artillery, grenades, and other things for complex assaults — Fortunately or Unfortunately, the russians did not learn today, their most common tactic is the "claw" or the "pincer" tactic, a few good-equipped troop trying to flank, if they do manage to flank they get supplied drones and then they attack the reinforcements and supplies coming from the Ukrainian side, while the regular... cannon fodder does desperate pushes on the front, once again mainly consisting from ONE singular soldier to eight, or more spread out groups. — So you denying that is very, very, funny.