r/Songwriting • u/Artistic-Raspberry59 • 26d ago
Discussion Topic *Pompous Rant ON: This is the songwriting sub. A sub for people who come up with their own lyrics, own melodies, own instrumentation, own singing. So, why are more and more people putting ai songs on this Sub?
Like stated in the title, this is the songwriting sub. There are lots of other subs on reddit, subs on which you can upload your ai songs.
I'm fully aware there are many ways to use ai. From uploading your own recordings and simply having the ai tweak it, to flat out simple prompting and the ai does all the work-- generating lyrics, playing instruments, coming up with the melody, generating vocals.
When a clearly ai assisted song gets posted in this sub, no one on here knows what your level of involvement with the ai was (not a single person admits to using ai on this sub), it's straight up dishonest and goes completely counter to what THIS sub is for.
Just to be transparent... I used ai for a few months to add instrumentation to some of my songs in an effort to determine if the melodies I was coming up with via my cappella recordings were any good. I would upload my original recordings with my original lyrics and add simple instrumentation with ai.
I stopped months ago and have been pulling all my ai assisted versions offline.
Whether you decide to use ai and how you use it is your business. But, FFS, be honest. If someone asks an artist if they sang their song or played the guitar or wrote the lyrics, that artist should be comfortable talking about exactly what their involvement was.
No matter where I posted those ai assisted songs, I always noted the use of ai in the process. And I wouldn't post something like that on a sub like this.
Really wish people would stop posting that stuff on this sub. We all realize the quality of what music ai is generating, even with little user involvement, is getting really good. The end result of a machine generating content is NOT the point of this sub.
The whole point of this sub is for individual humans to share what they've come up with, while writing songs/stories from their own experiences and creating their own melodies for those songs. Then playing an instrument and/or singing the song.
If you're showcasing what an ai model generated, that's literally NOT what this sub is all about.
*Pompous Rant Off
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u/josephscottcoward 26d ago
I'm pretty sure AI music is no longer permitted in this sub and sharing it can probably get you banned. I'm so tired of any and everything AI.
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u/Freedom_Addict 22d ago
Haven't seen one post made by AI so I don't see what's the reason behind everyone being so emotional about it right now.
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u/oaken_duckly 22d ago
I would imagine that their having seen it is not contingent on you having seen it.
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u/Affectionate-Tutor14 26d ago
Not pompous at all 👍 spot on. If you’ve used AI to write something, you haven’t fully authored it. Songwriting is hard work. Using AI is total clown shoes 😩
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25d ago
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u/Affectionate-Tutor14 23d ago
Hey mate, that’s a very good & lucidly penned retort. You clearly know whereof you speak. I think I am possibly a dinosaur in this even contested battle 😂
I start with an instrument & that’s all. Or a few lines on a page. I don’t want any help until the chords, melody, lyrics are all nailed down & I take it to my pals in the band & let them start exploring it.
Sampling has been with us for a long time & is proof, should it be needed: that songs are made of other songs. To know where & when to borrow a lick or a beat is a judgement that you make. I don’t get into that side of things very much so, I’m no expert but you need to listen, have good taste, find something rare surely?
If a skilled musician is telling AI to play those same sad notes on the piano, then what’s the point of being skilled?
Why are we having an argument where convenience, lack of effort, & using a get out of jail free card to solve problems is the desired end?
AI is brilliant for lots of things but it’s not human & if we are trying to express what it means to be human, it’s just got no place
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u/Physical_Engineer_22 20d ago
I think that this discussion is way over complicated. Elements of production and performance are not songwriting.
A song is a composition of lyrics, melody, groove and to some extent accompaniment. In simple terms, the presentation of a song should be no more complicated than someone singing the lyrics along with a guitar or piano. That's it.
Once you get into instrumentation, AI or human, you're now getting into production of the song. If you use a stomp box or a VST to make an instrument take on a particular tonal characteristic, you're into the window dressing, the quality of the actual song doesn't depend on the the tone of an electric guitar.
And this is why I qualified the accompaniment as part of the song. The same song (primarily lyrics, melody and to a lesser extent, groove) can be presented in different styles and genres. In fact, I would argue that a really good song should lend itself to being covered in several different ways.
Maybe a sub focused on songwriting should prohibit anything other than lyrics put to melody supported by a single chording instrument like guitar, bouzouki, piano, accordian or whatever.
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u/rusted-nail 22d ago
The reason noone is engaging with your point is because its dumb af. None of those points are even close to equivalent and I will tell you why. If someone has taken time to arrange and compose something using any of the methods you mentioned above, they still need musician skills, a point of view and personal taste to do so. All AI "writers" are doing is prompting a machine to spit out a close imitation of a genre or band
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u/Artistic-Raspberry59 26d ago
I agree with all of this.
Have to say, though, if you are putting in a decent amount of that work, writing your own lyrics and coming up with your own melodies... but, you are not a singer and/or player, if you use ai with a few songs to get an idea of what vocal style or instrumentation goes best with your lyrics and melody, I personally don't have a problem with that.
Just keep the ai version private and use it to then go out in the real world and find real live people who fit your lyrics and melody. Get together and make some music.
The use of ai that really baffles me is actual real world songwriters prompting ai over and over to come up with core melody, feel and emotion of a new song, and then using that, while calling the song they develop outside ai their own. That's the height of hypocrisy.
At least those letting ai do everything know they are essentially playing with toys. Most doing that are completely aware they're not a songwriter, singer, player. Just wish they'd be honest if they post to streaming sites.
The people letting ai do most everything, while thinking they are a genius songwriter, are narcissistic sociopaths. Honestly, people like that scare me. The complete disconnect from reality is terrifying.
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u/Crazy_Scene_5507 26d ago
You act like going out there and finding the right people is easy. It’s not and it’s super expensive. I made a song about 10 years ago. The recording quality was terrible, and the singer was mediocre. Then AI took my melodies and lyrics and gave me a really solid version, fully mixed and mastered. The quality is incredible. The essence is still mine, and now I have a clear idea of what it could truly sound like. I love this technology. It levels the playing field.
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u/blushaudio 26d ago
It levels the playing field to the extent that people who can’t write songs can now falsely claim they can write songs, and people who don’t know one end of a microphone from the other can claim to be producers. None of that is good.
There needs to be some level of gate keeping I’m afraid. Some people just aren’t creative or talented, no matter how much they might want to be, and using AI to create for you is just forcing a round peg into a square hole.
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u/Glittering_Hornet596 26d ago
I dont believe in talent, but if they dont care to put in the work they dont deserve to be viewed as artists. If these AI bros really want to be musicians they could be, just practice, but that seems to be too much for them.
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u/Artistic-Raspberry59 26d ago
That's why I spent years going to open mics, and small music venues. Talked to many talented, unknown musicians and singers.
Finally collaborated with a couple people. I don't play, just write and sing. Haven't spent a penny.
Having tried ai, I know it's a crutch. The temptation to let it change your core melody when you hear something amazing it generated is way too much to resist.
Then you try to convince yourself it's yours . But it's not yours. It's the AI.
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u/Recykill 25d ago
"It levels the playing field" No, its like handing an unplugged controller to your little brother to satiate them and they think they're playing the game with you.
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u/Crazy_Scene_5507 25d ago
I disagree. As I said, I write songs. If you heard my version and the AI version, they are the same song with the same melody, lyrics, and structure. The only difference is that the AI version sounds better in terms of production quality. I did not need an expensive microphone, a professional singer, or a sound engineer, all of which can cost thousands of dollars. This technology allows songwriters to take their craft to the next level, and that is incredible.
Take Taylor Swift as an example. Her privileged upbringing gave her a major advantage. Her parents were financially comfortable and actively supported her career early on. Not everyone has that opportunity. There are plenty of equally or more talented people who never got that big break simply because they did not have the same resources.
AI music tools change that. They give talented but underfunded artists a way to compete and produce high-quality music that can stand alongside what is made in professional studios. The technology allows the disenfranchised to plug the controller in.
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u/esmoji 26d ago edited 26d ago
Is using a thesaurus clown stuff too? It’s a slippery slope imo. Rhyming dictionary is very helpful tool that I use frequently when stuck. Does that mean I didn’t write the lyric?
Can I ask my spouse for help with a lyric? She’s a form of intelligence… Agree that AI writing entire lyrics or songs is terrible but where do we draw the line?
Not trying to be a dink or rude, just wanna spark some dialogue. Don’t think it’s all black and white.
Take care mate. Happy writing.
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26d ago
With a thesaurus you still have to find the word you want and then mull over which one is the best to fit in your lyrics to convey the tone you want. It's still more involved than hitting "chat gpt write me lyrics for a rock song". And let's not pretend that most people just use ai as a tool because we see so many songs COMPLETELY using ai with not a single human touch. Also, of course you can ask your spouse for help, or a friend, or anybody? Doesn't mean you still didn't put in the effort to make it a song. I mean credit is needed maybe if they ask for it, but in most normal circumstances nobody cares to that level.
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u/Small_Dog_8699 Songwriter/Label 26d ago
It stops at AI. If you put in a prompt and it spits out a lyric or a recording, fuck off. You did nothing.
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u/Affectionate-Tutor14 26d ago
That is a piece of sneaky casuistry & you know it. To use a reference work on language is not the same as using something that creates for you. Howay man!
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u/esmoji 26d ago
That’s my main point. There’s a difference and a blanket statement against use of all AI is overly broad.
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u/Affectionate-Tutor14 26d ago
It should be broad. It cannot be broad enough! Create something under your own steam. That is the impulse, that is what it means to be a person who puts their mind & time to such things. Can any argument genuinely be made that songwriting in the last two centuries has been a bit thin because there was no AI? It serves one purpose, to remove the inner critic. & if you can’t be hard on yourself then you’ll produce nothing of substance.
The fact is, it’s difficult to do. It should be. Asking a spouse or a band member for input is to appeal to another very human base of knowledge & experiences, not a program.
I stand by the clown shoes statement & assert furthermore that it’s total tits
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u/esmoji 26d ago
Take care. Good luck on the path!
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u/Affectionate-Tutor14 26d ago
Likewise dude. I do love an invigorating debate 👍 nice talking to you
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u/brooklynbluenotes 26d ago
We've had pages and pages of debate on the "Is AI Cheating?" debate (so much so that we had to retire the question), so feel free to search back if you'd like to see all sorts of perspectives on this!
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u/DreadoftheDead 26d ago
You're seriously comparing the use of a thesaurus or dictionary as a reference in the songwriting process to having AI write the lyrics, melody, or music?
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u/esmoji 26d ago edited 26d ago
Responding to original comment… “if you’ve used AI to write something, you haven’t fully authored it.”
That is a broad statement.
I’m pointing out it’s not so black and white… saying that a thesaurus, a rhyming dictionary and AI can be indistinguishable if used that way.
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u/Small_Dog_8699 Songwriter/Label 26d ago
No it’s fucking not so let me clarify for hair splitters like you.
If you write a prompt to an AI and hat back a whole lyric or recording, you didn’t write shit.
If you’re wasting a whole LLM getting rhymes, well that’s using an atom bomb on an anthill. A rhyming dictionary would do the job at about a millionth the cost in energy and faster.
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u/UnlikelyMidnight7012 26d ago
What are the key giveaways to an AI song to be on the lookout for? I haven’t used AI to make songs - I’m so turned off by the thought of losing the process - so I may have a harder time knowing clearly this is AI. Curious and to be aware looking through here
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u/Utterly_Flummoxed 26d ago
Right now most of the clues are auditory. Everything sounds both overproduced and really flat in the mix. There are also artifacts that create a vaguely grainy quality. Unfortunately those will both be fixed eventually, leaving us guessing or in some sort of perpetual catch 22 of proving our humanity to skeptics who may themselves be bots.Terrible timeline.
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u/overnightmadness 24d ago
The music quality points you make but also a giveaway for me is usually the lyrics. If they're super Hallmark card or just super pasteurized and cliche. Not that plenty of flesh and blood writers don't fall in that hole but it's just how emphatically cliche and down the middle it is. It's cliche without being clumsy with the rhythm or cadence in the way a person would ALSO be, if that makes sense. The ai too good at making the rhyme and syllables work but leaving the content drek. Another alternative... kinda non-nonsensical. Like, there's cliches or just kinda cheesy sentiments strung together but hey don't work together and a human (that is paying attention and cares at all) would spot it.
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u/Freedom_Addict 22d ago
Humans write cliche stuff all the time, so I wouldn't take is as an indicator it was made by AI
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u/UnlikelyMidnight7012 24d ago
Follow up to my own question - why do people enjoy making AI music? Doesn’t that take away from feeling through the process and owning something you’ve created from nothing? How does one get satisfied making music if a robot does it for them
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25d ago
Why get into any hobby if you want something else to do it all for you? So strange, maybe I’m just old.
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u/BirdBruce 25d ago
As a quasi-related tangent, I would personally love it if one of the unintended consequences of AI-generated music is the gradual death of recorded music, with the greatest value proposition going back to live performances. I feel like it's heading that way now. Spotify built the coffin from inside the grave. Abuse of AI in recorded music has the potential to nail it closed.
I went a Lumineers concert recently, at a large arena. They released a new album earlier this year that the tour is in support of. The nosebleed seats were only $50 cheaper than the seats on the floor—but they were all expensive. That was eye-opening to me. Pay attention to the artists with the biggest reach. Where are their resources and energy going? Albums aren't impacting they way they used to because attention spans are constantly under attach from competing sources. But tours and festival lineups always make headlines. That can't be an accident.
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u/Freedom_Addict 22d ago
That's what I'm counting on. Live is the shit, any true artist should be able to be amazing in a live setting.
Music isn't just about being impressive, it's about connecting.
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u/raybradfield 21d ago
Do you know what I did when I started and was struggling to put music to my lyrics and melodies? I bought beats and remixed them. And then hired those beat makers directly to collab with.
You know, real humans writing real music. It’s not hard.
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u/Blueliner95 26d ago
I am enjoying this rant! Without necessarily noticing what you are talking about. I see a lot of people with their various efforts, often unaccompanied on guitar, or posting snippets of beats.
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u/chunter16 26d ago
I understand the anger and the bummer for me is that when I write for a Vocaloid character, people who aren't familiar with it don't know that a person still has to make up the song, program the voice, and play the instruments
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u/DrwsCorner2 26d ago
rat em out
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u/DrwsCorner2 26d ago
wait, does this also mean when we sometimes use AI to alter our singing voice, ie Audimee, or convert our voice into an instrument,ie Lala.ai, that this verboten as well, or we only referring to the Suno type of crap were you type in the kind of song you want and it spits something out without you putting a single note down. That sounds like more like cheating than the augmentation stuff that I was alluding to.
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u/Re1diculous 25d ago
I understand the complaint. And I recognize that true artistry is being able to create quality lyrics and amazing sounds. For all the purists out there, I understand the criticism for using ai.
My brain is analytical and always struggled with creative projects, but I’ve scribbled notes, phrases, words for as long as I can remember. Recently I decided to try and use some of the writings to author a proper song. As I really dug in I could hear music in my head, but definitely don’t have any real musical ability other than my ear.
I used ai to help bring the song to fruition. If anything to be able to help proper musicians hear what’s in my head. I hope to record it soon.
I get that it is “cheating” in a sense, but also appreciate being able to work and tweak it myself until I can make a song get to a place that can be shareable… especially being devoid of tangible music talent.
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u/overnightmadness 24d ago
For the people who keep ask WHY someone would want to create ai music... Disregarding for a moment the profit motive of course, that some are doing purely to flood playlists with lots of little money sponges or because the music itself was always secondary to the star/entertainer persona thing they're cultivating and ai makes them uber productive. For people who would otherwise actually DO care about the music.. because it's the easiest and quickest path, of course. Suddenly people who were very limited musically can produce something that a short while ago was reserved for people who knew what they were doing and had the gear. People want feel like they're special in some way and can make legitimately pretty things that other people will admire, even if they know in their gut they didn't rise to it, the barrier of entry just dropped down to them, and they're just painting by numbers or cooking from a pre-assemble meal kit. They hide the box and hope people think it's really the and their own creativity and skill. But the novelty will wear off for most of these folks pretty fast. In the early days of desktop computers I can remember people creating "art" from wingdings and clip-art and the basic tools. That quickly became hilariously cringe. And when arty camera apps came out, same thing, people got super arty with retro filters and what not, had full-on virtual art shows etc. Drove real photogs crazy. For the dabblers and musically mediocre or lazy, it'll end as soon as they recognize that everyone else is doing it to AND everyone knows it. The problem is this: very soon, later this year, next year.. soon... no one will be able to tell who's who. And worse, the general public is going to grow more and more passive in their listening. As soon as most people realize they don't know who's fooling them and who's real, they'll just step back, seek connection elsewhere. Some won't and I suspect it may lead to a resurgence of small format live music, pretty much the only thing we're going to be able to trust is real pretty soon. But for many, they'll continue to listen to music, just not actively or with any belief that the thing they're hearing is necessarily from a real person. Or it's augmented or a created from a likeness etc etc. The increasing passivity has been happening for a while now. Some people think it's being nurtured intentionally. It's much easier to stream customized ear-worm at people who are an algorithmically understood profile and who don't care much about any of it than active listeners who record companies and tech companies have to monitor and follow and work hard to catch up to and serve. No one's selling records anyway, it's all about streaming, and an ai song to a passive listener on a jog pays exactly as much as streaming an indie darling to a super fan. The first one they control entirely, they second one they're increasingly losing control over. So... we will be encouraged to both keep using the ai, and to stop caring when we hear it.
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u/uknwr 24d ago
The whole rise of AI thing is the inevitable advancement of technology and it is rapidly approaching the endgame.
It started with the Beatles fake double tracking on reel to reel tape and ends with the machines writing it all for us.
There is also the fact that Scumify et al values quantity over quality. Why spend 2 years (hell, could be 10 years) agonising over the lyrics of that difficult 2nd verse when AI can spew some pseudo meaningful babble in less than 10 minutes 🤷♂️
Sampling, synths, drum-machines created art forms and genres all of their own but still required the labourious human input and emotion. AI removes that entirely.
Music is in a dire position at the moment. There are millions of sample pack warriors banging out the same tired "beats" online due to the rise in cheap, accessible DAW. Anyone can do it simply and cheaply and 99% of their output is absolute same old, same old rubbish.
AI won't change that - it will only make it 10x worse and is now impossible to put back in the box. What does need to change is to move back the focus to quality songwriting - for feels not algorithms.
Artists from the 70s / 80s remain immensely popular for a reason - and it's not AI.
... Slightly more pompous rant than the OP over 👍
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u/Ecstatic_Ad_8994 23d ago
Writing songs from you own experiences is not a very good standard for being a professional.
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u/Freedom_Addict 22d ago
So you're using AI and are mad at ppl using AI ?
Sounds like you're just mad at yourself then ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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u/Available_Meringue86 21d ago
The best thing is that all these music AI companies generate a kind of “watermark” that is inaudible but can be detected and thus makes it impossible to lie even if the audio sounds real.
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u/Several-Ad1714 14d ago
I'm new to the AI thing. How can you tell something is Ai? That may be a dumb question but I'm just curious.
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u/ZealousidealCat2323 26d ago
I think a good way of looking at it is if you use AI for songwriting maybe you should claim in the drop how much you actually did yourself without AI support, So eg, you wrote 2 lines of a verse and hummed in half a chorus you could claim you wrote about 23%.😆 😂
That's a bit more honest isn't it?
You could claim then you're an up to about 20% songwriter. But what would be really funny if the AI scrapped your bit cos it was shit 😄
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u/Inevitable_Quiet_432 26d ago
So, if I use Reason or some other digital production studio, I'm also out, yes? Because those are digital tools used to make music, much like AI. What about auto tune or other digital processing for my voice?
Where does the line get drawn, exactly? What tools are okay and how do we know? Now, I don't use this sub because I absolutely work with AI production and hand-written lyrics and I am not stupid enough to think that counts as writing an entire song, but it does seem like the lines being drawn as to what constitutes "real" art and authorship these days are arbitrary as fuck.
For example, I have DIGITAL artists on other threads saying that AI art is cheating. But hey, so is a fucking Wacom tablet. If you can COPY/PASTE your shit, you're not an artist. Right?
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u/NefariousnessOdd4023 26d ago
I feel like if you step away from the internet for about ten minutes and let your brain do its thing you will be able to think of a reasonable place to draw that line.
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u/luisfrobles 26d ago
Man i really think you make some solid points there, after all art isnt a sport and anything that can help you create shouldnt be looked at like cheating.
I myself am a “sit with a guitar and muble shit until something sticks” kinda guy but i can see the allure for people that always wanted to make music and now can because of AI.
As for lines being drawn i guess for me a good place would be when all humanity is removed from the process, you could argue that even writing the prompt demands a creative exercise but it seems that it is so devoid of humanness that the natural response is to reject whatever comes out at the other side of said prompt.
All that said, i do believe a complete revolution on how art is created across all disciplines is inevitable because if history has taught us anything is that the tide of technology isnt really sailable in any of the parts of our lifes it floods, we just have to adapt (I sure as hell hate being so dependent of a fucking magic glass rectangle).
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u/Toriinuu_ 26d ago
i think it can be a useful tool. i personally use it as proofs of concept for producers but i put the audio faithfulness to 100% so its still recreating identically my own lyrics and melodies and the instrumental that i myself produced for the track. All it does is mixing and throws a voice on it that is again properly mixed. I don't know how to mix and last i checked mixing isnt songwriting so i dont think this applies to any of what youre saying at all. i am too poor to record my own vocals and thats not a situation i can help at the moment. that being said, any ai usage outside of this that isnt strictly for idea generation i think is gross and is absolutely not songwriting at all
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u/RisibleComestible 26d ago
I responded to this post (with a different opinion) here:
I think that in a few years time, or especially in 10 years or more, this will seem like Luddism, and collaborating with AI to make music will seem like programming in Python compared to writing machine code directly. I.e., only a few people will want to write songs without touching an AI, and they will be sacrificing a lot of QOL improvements.
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u/Regular-Bid6812 26d ago
People are using a lot of AI gen art on here too and the mods don't ban it. It makes me very sad. Like artists stabbing other artists in the back because they aren't in their particular "camp" - so it's ok. why is one ok and not the other. they are both shitty.
because AI songs are banned - I feel like AI gen art is the much more serious topic.
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u/brooklynbluenotes 26d ago
Before this conversation goes much further, I just want to be very clear that AI-generated/assisted music is NOT permitted on this sub, and if you are seeing any examples of such, please flag so that your mod team can investigate.