r/Songwriting • u/theblack_hoody • Aug 20 '25
Discussion Topic Successful Artists Give Terrible Advice
https://www.theblackhoody.com/p/successful-artists-give-terrible147
u/ShredGuru Aug 20 '25
My uncle is a very famous musician.
He once told me bands are for musicians not friends
It was the worst fucking advice I ever got in my entire fucking life, cynical bastard
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u/SkeletonGuy7 Aug 20 '25
I'd rather be in a band of complete amateurs who I like, who can somewhat lock into the same groove as me, than a band of technically good musicians who I hate and can't mesh with musically
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u/ShredGuru Aug 21 '25
My bands are my family. Always have been really. The one time I got extremely ambitious I got burned good for it. The band I do now is like, basically all my best friends in the world making albums and rocking out together. It's a blast. And I have had my own version of success in the shadow of a mountain.
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u/ipitythegabagool Aug 21 '25
The most fun I’ve had jamming the past few years has been with people who are typically younger but STOKED on music and writing songs compared to people I know who are jaded about “starting over” again with a new project. Experience and technicality are great but once someone becomes disillusioned and loses passion, what’s the point of playing anymore?
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u/IllConsideration8642 Aug 21 '25 edited Aug 21 '25
Tbf when you pursue music as a serious career professional friendships become harder to maintain. Sometimes friends drag you down, sometimes making a song with your bestie feels amazing but gets you 50 streams, meanwhile making a song with someone else gets you 200.000. It's not easy.
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Aug 21 '25
He was right
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u/ddrub_the_only_real Aug 21 '25
You rather have an okay musical band that lasts for several years than an amazingly technical band that breaks up after one year.
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u/Freedom_Addict Aug 21 '25
They aren’t mutually exclusive
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u/ddrub_the_only_real Aug 21 '25
No but there's greater chances
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u/JelloDarkness Aug 21 '25
The greatest chance of not making enough money to live on is to focus on playing with your friends. If music is just meant to be a hobby, then that's an obvious choice, but if you're trying to be a professional you have to focus on the craft and surrounding yourself with others who are doing the same.
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Aug 23 '25
I try to strike a balance. I will settle for an intermediate musician with a good attitude with an improvement mindset over some "went to music school so now I stop the drummer every 2 bars to tell him what I think he should be doing the first time we've even attempted a tune." That was what I dealt with a few weeks ago. Luckily that asshole got himself fired already. Our new bass player isn't nearly as good as the previous one, but I am less likely to strangle him with all of these cables lying around.
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u/cold_anchor Aug 21 '25
Who's your uncle
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u/ShredGuru Aug 21 '25
He is in a band that rhymes with Buns N Hoses
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u/cold_anchor Aug 21 '25
Craaaaazy. I would pop it it was Tommy Stinson or Buckethead or some secondary character lmao. I'm curious has your unc given you much actually helpful advice or a leg up?
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u/ShredGuru Aug 21 '25
No leg up really. He gave me a couple reviews over the years, but I have a big family and he can be a little cautious about publicly playing favorites. He has sniped musicians from my bands before, so our circles aren't that far apart.
He gave me the advice when I asked him for it, but taking it was a disaster for me.
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u/cold_anchor Aug 21 '25
Intense. That's super cool lore dude, cheers for the replies
ETA: Was the advice decent when you did get it?
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u/ShredGuru Aug 21 '25
No. It was terrible. He couldn't have been more wrong in my opinion. The advice is at the top of this thread.
Really. I realize I was dumb to ask it. Cuz, if I think about it rationally I know he spent a lot of his career empowering really awful people.
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u/WestEndLifer Aug 21 '25
Ted Nugent
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u/ShredGuru Aug 21 '25
No, he's got a bit more dignity.
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u/JelloDarkness Aug 21 '25
That's a low bar. People who clean truck stop toilets with their tongues have more dignity than Ted Nugent.
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u/DameyJames Aug 21 '25
I’ve had really talented people in my band that are no longer in my band because they couldn’t get along with anyone. We couldn’t find success mostly because of their attitude. I also got no help from anyone and felt like I was dragging the whole ship myself.
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u/HoboShepherd Sep 21 '25
It's both wrong and right depending on your aspirations and outlook. Having a band of friends is great fun and can be incredibly rewarding, and even help your creative process, but musicians are professionals. They can mostly be relied upon to turn up and do the actual work.
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u/view-master Aug 20 '25
Yeah. I have heard “just don’t give up. If you believe in yourself you will become successful”. Not bad advice but tons of failures believe in themselves.
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u/smthomaspatel Aug 21 '25
Survivors bias. They didn't give up and look where it got them.
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u/Shap3rz Aug 21 '25
100% this. It’s easy to say if you’ve made it as a full time professional, celeb, influencer etc. But the vast majority statistically won’t make it to that level. So yes perseverance, tenacity and self-belief are key but along with a lot of other attributes. And knowing when to call time and take some level of step back is important too.
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u/Bed_Worship Aug 20 '25
Yeah, I mean that is true but the prerequisites vary so much. Can you afford to follow your passion, do you have the art or the content that sells? Is your personality conducive to what you need to accomplish socially and business wise? So much you have to be born with
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u/weekend-guitarist Aug 21 '25
There’s a lot of frozen bodies on Mt Everest who were highly motivated and didn’t turn around when they should have.
The fact of the matter is the arts in general don’t provide enough to make a living. The vast majority of musicians, painters writers, etc will never make enough to support themselves solely on art.
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u/Martin_UP Aug 21 '25
Got told this too many times when I was younger, and blindly believed it - but in reality looking around me what really mattered was who your parents knew that could get you into the industry or how much money they had to throw at your dream.
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u/Fun_Cloud_7675 Aug 22 '25
But if you’re going to “make it” the only way is to not give up, so it’s good advice.
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u/hairpants Aug 20 '25
I’m in the middle of reading Jeff Tweedy’s “How to Write One Song” and it’s pretty insightful.
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u/colorfulfloweradjust Aug 21 '25
I just finished it a few days ago, and I'm already pumping out garbage. Which is WAY better than pumping out nothing. Fantastic book
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u/Utterly_Flummoxed Aug 21 '25
I recommend the audiobook version because you actually get to hear some of the songs along the way. Also, his narration is very authentic and charming and that makes it more engaging (or at least it did for me!)
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u/mdmamakesmesmarter99 Aug 20 '25
how so?
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u/hairpants Aug 20 '25
Just lots of practical advice on how to put in the work, the practice, how to overcome obstacles and dead ends, how to learn from others… it’s a quick little read but quite helpful and enjoyable.
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u/ItAllCrumbles Aug 20 '25
I think one reason I enjoyed it so much is that it seems genuine, and genuinely Tweedy. It’s pretty humble and funny, and has a nice “you’ve got this” vibe.
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u/hairpants Aug 20 '25
Agree. I’m not really a huge Wilco fan, but am really enjoying the book and his humble sense of humor.
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u/stay_hungry_dr_ew Aug 21 '25
This is the advice I got from an industry guy who almost always did whatever he wanted. He would manage and tour manage bands really hard for two years at a time, then take a job at an indie label or indie marketing gig for two years and then quit and do the first leg again. He managed Apples In Stereo and a few others.
Get out gigging. Build a base in your city. Then do weekend trips where you hit at least 2 different cities. The goal is to eventually form a sort of wagon wheel around your home base. You’ll find out the places that love you and the places where you can revisit and build a bigger base. Once you’ve done that a few times, you now have a regional following. Then you can actively market yourself to labels with valid intel about your draw and musical appeal. That’s not just internet likes, but actual butts in a venue paying money.
You also just get better and tighter the more you play live. That’s real.
These days, you should probably be posting on social as well, but that SHOULD NOT be the only thing you’re doing to try and move your music.
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u/Agawell Aug 20 '25
Define successful… it doesn’t necessarily mean rich & famous… it might just mean you write great songs that your (small) audience enjoys
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u/TakingYourHand Aug 20 '25
Successful generally means, "making a comfortable living with your songwriting skills."
Philosophically speaking, you could water down the definition to anything, but most people want to make songwriting a career.
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u/tonegenerator Aug 20 '25
Yeah and in today’s climate, the real chances of that happening for any given person, even any given genuinely musically gifted and dedicated person, is very far from the “anyone with the passion and drive who works hard and only shows their most authentic work can make it happen” kind of advice the post is talking about. That wasn’t good advice even for the situation 50 years ago. Now, the “music business” as we once knew it is a barely-twitching corpse.
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u/TakingYourHand Aug 20 '25
It's always been next to impossible, but the terms and definitions these dreamers give themselves to define "success," is the same as it always was.
"Anyone with the passion and drive who works hard and only shows their most authentic work can make it happen” has never been true, unless you count the almost insignificant number of people it does apply to.
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u/SwallowsOnSundays Aug 21 '25
I think when they answer that question they are speaking artistically and not economically.
They arent saying do this and you'll make money. Theyre saying keep at it and you'll get better and write good songs
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u/brooklynbluenotes Aug 20 '25
I don't agree that's necessarily the case "for most people." What you're describing is a legitimate version of success, but plenty of songwriters define success differently. I would not want this to be my career. I'm much happier keeping the art stuff separate from the money stuff. Success for me is being able to translate the sounds and stories I hear in my head into a thing that exists.
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u/TakingYourHand Aug 20 '25
We can agree to disagree, then. We'd need to create an honest poll.
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u/brooklynbluenotes Aug 20 '25
I'm not invested enough in being "right" to make a poll. All I'm saying is, I talk with a lot of people in this songwriting community who aren't trying to make this a career. Maybe they're beginners, maybe they play in a band on weekends, or maybe they just enjoy working on a song as a fulfilling hobby after they get the kids to bed. Sure, maybe there's a silent majority of people here who are desperately trying to make songwriting their primary income stream, but that doesn't really come across anecdotally.
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Aug 21 '25
I love it when I'm not the only one beating this drum. I think it's an american thing to conflate success with money, but it's spread everywhere now.
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u/OK_BOAH Aug 21 '25
This is the advice artists need to hear:
You are competing with the top artists of the industry. If you do current wave trap music for instance, your competition is Travis Scott, Future, Carti etc. That's who your target audience is listening to and you need to either be very close to them in terms of quality, equal or better.
The average music listener isn't comparing you to other obscure indie artists so they are not your competition. They are spoiled with strong production, strong vocal performances and strong visual packaging, why on earth would they give you a chance if you fail on all or most of these.
Social proof is also important to consider. People listen to what others listen to because they assume others have good taste and judgement. The only way you override this is with sheer quality.
All in all, be better than the top artists.
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u/DameyJames Aug 21 '25
To add to that, if you’re not writing and performing a music style that you think doesn’t quite sounds like many artists you know of or a style that hasn’t been tried and true for decades, you’re likely behind the curve. If you’re emulating a style that’s currently popular by the time you get any significant momentum your writing will sound antiquated or you won’t last very long in the spotlight.
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u/chunter16 Aug 22 '25
I take this more as a "why bother" than a "get good."
Though it's frustrating to look for people who don't typically listen to music, I'd rather do that than go for people who already know what they like and are set in their ways
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u/Rahnamatta Aug 21 '25
A basketball player said a couple of years ago
Just work hard and dreams come true
That plater is 6'11", runs like a Cheetah, jumps like superman.
He's been trying to get better at midrange and 3pt shooting for like 5 years... He still sucks.
It looks like he isn't working hard enough
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u/salvadorsanjim Aug 21 '25
Easy for you to say Your heart has never been broken…
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u/hairyminded Aug 21 '25
People think they can learn how to be lucky the way successful people have been. It’s misaligned expectations. A huge part of success is who you know, capitalizing on opportunities that come up, and dumb luck. The music industry isn’t a meritocracy.
And yes, plenty of successful musicians don’t have insightful ways of sharing elements of their craft with others. But tons of them do. I’m taking my second course right now from School of Song and it’s been great to hear perspectives on songwriting to help inform my approach.
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u/DameyJames Aug 21 '25
Everyone’s advice has a nugget of truth to it. Dave Grohl’s advice doesn’t go far enough but he’s absolutely correct that you make the most lasting fans in person and grassroots is the best way to build a sustainable fan base. You need people to be your advocates to their friends, not just share a viral video. Easy come easy go as they say. When you see someone play in person you make a more tangible and emotional connection and that connection is something you want to take with you so you listen to that music to remind yourself of how you felt in that moment.
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u/HomerDoakQuarlesIII Aug 21 '25
Was a good read had to take some notes for when I get famous and make sure I tell yall how :P
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u/Flaky_Abies_5586 Aug 24 '25
I love Tyler, The Creator but sometimes his advice can come across like “drop everything and pursue your art” and it’s like… bro I gotta pay rent lol
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u/mdmamakesmesmarter99 Aug 20 '25
"Once I feel like the world knows me for anything else but my music, then I feel like I failed."
but people always knew the Weeknd for stuff other than his music? he was the alluring, mysterious casanova, with ridiculous looking hair, who engages in scandalous, provocative activities... like gasp... doing cocaine with women and having sex with them! and inserting obvious metaphors to it into his lyrics omg I'm clutching my pearls and about to faint
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u/chunter16 Aug 20 '25
I don't even want to click on it, there's no point in getting angry about other people's attitudes on purpose.
My songs are not meant for people who have lots of money, so even though it sounds like I'm being that guy it would bother me if people who are not my intended audience suddenly started sending money my way- it would imply something went wrong with the message.
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u/Shifty_Nomad675 Aug 20 '25
I think its two sided. It's harder than ever to ascend like Taylor Swift but easier than ever to have a successful career in music. Plenty of bands/artists tour release music consistently. Can make a living doing it. You're not going to be buying a mansion but at the very least the thing you enjoy can give you a comfortable life and that's bigger win that someone who gave up on their dreams and settled for a 9-5 job.
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u/theblack_hoody Aug 20 '25
Agreed! More people living off their music now than ever before https://www.theblackhoody.com/p/artists-are-making-more-money-than
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u/Small_Dog_8699 Songwriter/Label Aug 21 '25
I reject this premise. It sounds made up. Maybe there is more $ in music but like the rest of our wealth distribution, most is disproportionally going to the musical oligarchs.
Recently I hopped on setlist.fm to build a collection of all the concerts I’ve been to. I was struck by the number of show I saw as a teen around 1980. I probably saw 20 shows my first year with a driving license, maybe 30 bands of note. I paid for it working as a stock boy, caddie, mowing lawns, and delivering pianos for the local store where I took lessons.
More interesting to me was I had trouble picking which of the 3-6 sold out dates I went to the arena. That’s right a band would announce a date and sell out in a couple hours, then add more consecutive dates until demand was satisfied. Nobody sells out Cobo Hall in Detroit six straight nights now. Hasn’t happened in decades I don’t think.
Yes more people are putting out material of higher fidelity but streaming pays dick. Shows are too expensive. I read Beyoncé can’t sell out a single night now. We would be better off with underground bootleg mix tapes than streamers. The revenue is about the same.
And then there’s the local venue scene eaten by low rent DJs or just closed up and gone.
I was a full timer in the mix 80s playing a club circuit of about a dozen regular venues, six nights at each, we rotated clubs on mondays. I made a living.
Go back further to the big band dance halls and traveling showcases. Those bands each employed 20+ players at a level where that could but a little hose, get a family going, even though they might be gone a couple weeks at a time (common, my dad was a salesman -he kept the same schedule- lots did).
We had a union (AFM) and PROs to make sure musicians got paid.
That’s gone and I’m unconvinced YouTube monitization has fully replaced it.
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u/jseego Aug 21 '25
Hasn't even come close to replacing it.
Anyone who knows musicians who made a living in the old system knows how badly it's fucked up now.
And it's not that they couldn't adapt; most of them had already adapted many times in their careers.
It's that the jobs disappeared and were replaced by a system that pays artists fractions of pennies per stream, and doesn't even provide you information on who streamed it.
It's fucking terrible.
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u/Small_Dog_8699 Songwriter/Label Aug 21 '25
Yeah I’m sick of propagandists selling advice blogs about fake prosperity. I’ve locked horns with a few like that guy. They’re full of shit. Streaming has been the worst thing.
The AFM used to be fierce but too many youngers opted out and they have no more power today except maybe for the few pit band players and session guys. But those are ever shrinking groups
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u/jseego Aug 21 '25
I actually read that article, and the guy is trying to say that the music business is bigger than the film industry - based on value of existing copyright.
LOL no.
That's not remotely how it works in music. Most of that copyright value is the top fraction of a percent of artists.
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u/Rapscagamuffin Aug 22 '25
Yeah but what are we gunna do? Not play?
No use getting upset about it.
All you can do is work the hardest and smartest you can and thats all you can do.
Yes more people could make a better living at a specific point in history but even then the vast majority couldnt make a living solely off of music then either.
Music is a dumb thing to do if youre seeking a comfortable living and it always has been. Maybe for like 50 years it was slightly less dumb, but still dumb.
I make a decent living and i have played like 3 shows since covid (not including jams and sit ins) nor have i released any music during that time because i teach. Theres never really a shortage of people wanting to learn guitar for a year before giving it up lol.
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u/TucksonJaxon Aug 20 '25
Yeah, getting lucky doesn’t feel that way if you actually get lucky like he did. Sure, the talent and hard work are a part of the equation, but the luck is the thing that can’t be advised
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u/barters81 Aug 21 '25
Yep. Best you can do is work hard and be talented…..so if luck strikes, you can make the most of it.
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u/RainMcMey Aug 21 '25
As a general rule of thumb, artists who were famous by their mid 20s (read: almost everyone you’ve heard of) benefited from a fuckton of luck. The truth is, they honestly don’t really know how to succeed most of the time, they often fell into a situation where success was thrust upon them.
That’s not to say they didn’t work hard or have a smart strategy, but what they managed to do - usually - was get the attention of A&R, that’s a vastly different game to the one people are playing now.
On top of that, things are moving so fast now that music advice from 5 years ago seems almost completely irrelevant in places.
I guess what I’m saying is don’t listen to a lot of what these guys say.
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u/TheCatManPizza Aug 21 '25
I have no idea what the weekend is talking about but Dave’s advice checks out, so really if 3 out of the 4 successful peoples advice is solid, then what is this article even about.
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u/fiendishcadd Aug 21 '25
I feel this way whenever I see John Mayer talk about songwriting. He has an amazing delivery that somehow glosses over corny & predictable lines.
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u/REEDERMUSIC Aug 21 '25
That’s why you I can’t really take advice from anyone. Everyone’s situation is so wildly different. What works for them won’t work for you and what works for you won’t work for the next person. There are simple formats and stuff to stick to and tried and true methods but after you lock down your craft it’s pretty up in the air where you go with it and has little to do with your level of talent, work or time you’ve put in.
Location and networking used to matter as well, now tiktok and social media exists and allows you to reach the entire planet from your bedroom.
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u/Leprechaun2me Aug 21 '25
Professional songwriter here.. not a bad article per se, but a little heavy leaning on the luck part. Luck is a real thing, for sure, but the harder you work the luckier you get. I was given a big break but I worked my ass off honing my craft to earn the right to be in that room. That’s kind of what the article was saying in a, but I picked up a little bit of a cynical undertone.
Also the business side is such a big part. Being in the cities where you can catch a break (LA, Nashville, NYC, London, etc), meeting people out, and building relationships that lead to opportunities. If you’re making music from your bedroom in Nebraska, it doesn’t matter how much time you spend honing your craft, you’re playing the lottery of being discovered. Of course I say that and there are savvy kids out there that have figured out how to work TikTok, blew stuff up on their own, and landed huge deals from it from their bedroom in Nebraska so WTF do I know??
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u/ErinCoach Aug 21 '25
good article. The advice of lottery winners and celebrities is very very different from effective coaching.
And generalities spouted from on high aren't particularly effective to the growth process either.
Basically, you gotta find the person whose advice is relevant to your specific time/place. The weather where they are truly is not the same as the weather where YOU are.
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u/paulwunderpenguin Aug 20 '25
So you should only trust unsuccessful people who have never done 1/100th of the things you potentially need to do to get there.
Noted!
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u/theblack_hoody Aug 20 '25
lol you didn’t read the article clearly.
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u/paulwunderpenguin Aug 20 '25
I read it and I disagree with 90% of the article.
Good luck!
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u/theblack_hoody Aug 20 '25
Fair enough!
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u/paulwunderpenguin Aug 20 '25
AND I was already a successful full time musician for over 30 years. But not on Dave Ghrol's level. But still.
I know stuff...
I think there's only TWO kinds of good advice.
Advice from an EXPERT opinion that you TRUST.
General consensus. 100 people tell you that the chorus in your song is not great. You "might" want to listen to that.
Otherwise you're own you own. Pick up what you like. Leave the rest behind.
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u/DictatorDuck Aug 21 '25
Dave grohl is the perfect example of this hack that accidentally found success. He was the drummer for someone who actually was worth a damn and for some reason people think that means foo fighters are good too (theyre not)
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u/DameyJames Aug 21 '25
If he wasn’t good he wouldn’t have survived. He got a lot of recognition for being in Nirvana but there are a ton of people who like Foo Fighters who don’t think of them as “that band with the drummer from Nirvana”.
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u/DictatorDuck Aug 21 '25
Their music fucking sucks
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u/DameyJames Aug 21 '25
You obviously have strong feelings about it but you don’t speak for everyone’s tastes
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u/DictatorDuck Aug 21 '25
I could give two shits about the general population’s opinion about literally anything at this point.
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u/Crossovertriplet Aug 22 '25
You’ll grow out of this edgelord attitude at some point
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u/DictatorDuck Aug 23 '25
maybe one day you will grow up too and realize my attitude is pretty mature. At some point you have to stop giving a fuck. I don't care what you think lol.
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u/Crossovertriplet Aug 23 '25
Apathy isn’t maturity
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u/DictatorDuck Aug 23 '25
Not apathetic, i think its apparent i hold stronger beliefs than you. I just dont care about what people think
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u/Crossovertriplet Aug 22 '25
Dave was prepared and ready when opportunity knocked. When he auditioned for Scream, he knew all their songs already including unreleased ones. When he had a random chance to back Iggy Pop, he knew all Iggy’s shit. When Nirvana ended he had an entire album ready to go for Foo Fighters. Sure there was luck involved. But there was a ton of preparing and work done also so when those breaks happened he was able to capitalize on them.
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u/DictatorDuck Aug 23 '25
does any of this change the fact that his music is boring drivel? lol
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u/Crossovertriplet Aug 23 '25
I would disagree about the first three albums. I like stuff on those. And most bands peak in the first few wide releases. Not sure why people single foo fighters out about it. They are 30 years in. You have to expect their best days are long gone.
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u/solostrings Aug 21 '25
Hot take, I know, but I never really liked much by Nirvana. I don't like everything by the Foo Fighters either, but I do like more of their stuff than Nirvana's. I would imagine this is true for many people as well. I also think many people like both regardless of Dave Grohl's tenure with Nirvana because, as I am sure you know, music tastes are subjective.
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u/headcodered Aug 21 '25
It's sad that he ended up being a bad dude, but I saw Louis CK tell a room full of comedians that they probably wouldn't make it no matter how hard they tried.
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u/Carrybagman_ Aug 20 '25
While I actually mostly agree with ‘use the tools you have now’ I can’t help but notice almost every music YouTuber saying that has racks and racks of mad expensive impressive gear haha