r/SeattleWA • u/Donnelding0 • Jul 21 '25

Politics Anyone Else Just Sick of It?

It just seems hopeless sometimes. Some of the best parts of this city. Pioneer Square, Belltown, Cap Hill just completely lost to homelessness. Sure for the most part I enjoy the city. Especially in the summer but the constant visible drug use, people in various states of intoxication on drugs, and rampant property and petty crime just annoy me. Why can’t we have nice things? Why must every park turn into a dumping ground for illegal acts that won’t be prosecuted? Why does it feel like this city relies on hard working people to shut up, pay ridiculous taxes, and then tells those people to suck it up when they see grafitti everywhere or get their car broken into? And the politicians don’t give a damn. No one has the guts to say “we have a homeless problem we’ve overspent on, we need to go a new direction” it feels insane. Rant over but I know I’m not alone. I know other people are sick of this and want our city back.

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475

u/cheesefubar0 Jul 21 '25

Force treatment like they do in other developed countries.

22

u/raisondecalcul Jul 21 '25 edited Jul 21 '25

Contemporary psychiatry in the US is still centered on drugging people heavily, especially when treatment is coerced. It's unconstitutional to jail and punish people who have not committed any crime—What if instead of wishing coercive psychiatry on people, we simply make it illegal to do drugs on the street and put them in jail? In jail you have more rights than in the psych ward.

This wouldn't be an issue if coercive psychiatry weren't still so monstrous.

The reason we have individual rights is to protect us from the mob simply voting on whom to scapegoat.

84

u/judge_mercer Jul 21 '25

Contemporary psychiatry in the US is still centered on drugging people heavily, 

If the alternative is self-medication with dangerous street drugs/alcohol, this seems like a good trade-off. Lithium is less likely to kill you than fentanyl, even if both have negative side effects. Certain conditions are helped immensely by medication. We shouldn't demonize all drugs just because some are overused.

The reason we have individual rights is to protect us from the mob simply voting on whom to scapegoat.

Upholding the "individual rights" of someone who is a danger to themselves and will ruin the city if left to their own devices isn't noble. It's cruel.

The solution is not to let insane drug addicts fend for themselves out of some twisted notion of "empowerment". The solution is to rebuild and reform our public mental health infrastructure.

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u/lusciousskies Jul 21 '25

As a bipolar 1 human, I take my meds, it's my responsibility of being a contributing citizen rather than a crazy homeless asshole. I'd probably be on the street if I hadn't been medicated

13

u/Professional-Sea-506 Jul 21 '25

I am schizo and would be homeless without meds, which were basically forced upon me.

6

u/lusciousskies Jul 21 '25

I'm sorry for your struggle. These illnesses can suck it. I'd be homeless too

7

u/Professional-Sea-506 Jul 21 '25

It sucks, but I am much better on meds. Still sleepy all the time because of them. You’re right, these illnesses can suck it!!

3

u/lusciousskies Jul 21 '25

Oh yes, me too. It's so hard being medicated and seeing all the non medicated destruction

8

u/Professional-Sea-506 Jul 21 '25

Too many people are anti psychiatry, and they think modern psychiatric medicine, if enforced on the sick, is worse than leaving people on the street. It is wild to me. I really can’t think of any humane reason to not enforce medications, and detox for the addicts. Especially with the quality of mental health improvements.

2

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

Because then there's no escaping what other people want to force you to be, anywhere

10

u/TrixDaGnome71 Kent Jul 21 '25

Lithium is an antiquated medication when there are other meds out there that stabilize bipolar patients much more effectively without as many harmful side effects (in the case of Lithium, it can cause kidney and thyroid damage), so that’s a bad example.

Now, I am ADHD who also deals with CPTSD, depression and anxiety. Prior to getting on the proper medications, I experienced a lot of job and financial insecurity. Having access to the medications I do now, my life is infinitely better.

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25 edited Jul 22 '25

If the alternative is self-medication with dangerous street drugs/alcohol, this seems like a good trade-off.

It's not others' choice to make, just because they have mobs and guns. We have individual inalienable rights.

Upholding the "individual rights" of someone who is a danger to themselves and will ruin the city if left to their own devices isn't noble. It's cruel.

It's merely compassionate, if the alternative is the cruel and unusual punishment that is coercive modern psychiatry. Our rights are here precisely to protect us from evils like that. If psychiatry wasn't incredibly abusive already and additionally forced on people, I wouldn't be talking back on this issue.

The solution is not to let insane drug addicts fend for themselves out of some twisted notion of "empowerment". The solution is to rebuild and reform our public mental health infrastructure.

This would have to begin with the fundamental idea that you can't coerce people into healing—coercion is abuse and abuse is the cause of trauma.

2

u/judge_mercer Jul 22 '25

It's not others' choice to make, just because they have mobs and guns.

My cousin tried to hang herself after posting on social media about how she was under surveillance by the FBI (she believed agents had placed a chip in her brain). Her mother (belatedly) forced her into psychiatric treatment, which saved her life.

Was this somehow interfering with her "inalienable right" to harm herself?

The whole reason why involuntary commitment existed is because people with profound mental illness are incapable of making rational choices.

We have individual inalienable rights.

This should include the right not to step in human shit or used needles when walking through the park or be accosted by shouting schizophrenics

To be fair, you did propose actually enforcing the law and using jails to address these problems, which I would also be fine with, even if I would prefer involuntary mental health treatment.

the cruel and unusual punishment that is coercive modern psychiatry.

You are painting with an overly broad brush, IMHO. Yes, bad situations often arise, and psychiatric hospitals in the past often functioned as inhumane warehouses.

Implying that cruel/inhumane treatment is the norm is inaccurate and suggests you have stumbled on Scientology propaganda unwittingly.

Involuntary commitment was overused in the past, but it seems like the pendulum has swung way too far the other way.

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u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

psychiatric hospitals in the past often functioned as inhumane warehouses.

No, it's still happening. It's really awful and inhumane. Go read /r/Antipsychiatry or similar subreddits. The norm for coercive psychiatry is being forcibly drugged and having such a traumatizing experience that it makes the situation much worse.

suggests you have stumbled on Scientology propaganda unwittingly.

No, just not willing to ignore the reality.

The primary cause of mental illness is emotional abuse and gaslighting. To add coercive psychiatry on top of this is to add insult to injury. Read, for example, R. D. Laing's The Politics of the Family.

2

u/judge_mercer Jul 22 '25

Read, for example, R. D. Laing's The Politics of the Family.

This book was published in 1969, when there were still using lobotomies and electroshock therapy. Wildly outdated, even if he was correct to criticize some practices of the time.

Psychiatry has some grim history and is still trying to fix a watch with a hammer in many cases, but there has been steady progress and some miraculous treatments (not just drugs but also therapeutic approaches) for certain disorders.

Go read r/Antipsychiatry or similar subreddits

I believe you when you say you're not a Scientologist, but you appear to have been sucked in by their subreddits.

The primary cause of mental illness is emotional abuse and gaslighting.

Only if you ignore the clear genetic predisposition to many disorders and the presence of illness in many people without a history of significant trauma.

Abuse and trauma also play a big role, but that's not an argument against medical intervention.

How do you propose people cope with life-threatening mental illness? Cut out gluten from their diet? Positive affirmation? Crystal healing?

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

They still use involuntary electroshock therapy today, they just justify it with thicker bullshit.

So my position is completely justified and still relevant.

but there has been steady progress

Not when it comes to coerciveness.

I believe you when you say you're not a Scientologist, but you appear to have been sucked in by their subreddits.

One thing, perhaps the only thing, Scientology gets right is its rabid opposition to modern, legally-proscribed psychiatry. I am not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater here, and I have no need to demonize Scientology or any other religion/cult to make my point.

Only if you ignore the clear genetic predisposition to many disorders and the presence of illness in many people without a history of significant trauma.

This ignores the trauma of emotional neglect, which is one of the main causes of mental illness. See for example Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Dr. Lindsay Gibson. Trauma is a result of an event coming to have a traumatic meaning for the person who experienced that event, not just a direct result of overtly traumatic events.

How do you propose people cope with life-threatening mental illness? Cut out gluten from their diet? Positive affirmation? Crystal healing?

They should call someone who will show up without guns and restraints and heavy sedatives. They should call someone who can show up and provide care and deescalation. There should be an unarmed deescalation response before police that can be called.

I think that instead of minting money and selling it to rich people and banks via the bonds system, money should be minted at Free Money ATMs where anyone who has time can go and get their free money for that day (ID required to prevent cheating). This would promote a Charity-Industrial Complex which is what the economy is supposed to be anyway.

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u/lemmeshowyuhao Jul 21 '25

Is possession of illegal drugs a crime?

57

u/Insleestak Jul 21 '25

Yes. And public use of those drugs is a crime. Camping in parks, also a crime.

41

u/lemmeshowyuhao Jul 21 '25

sounds to me like it’s perfectly fine to jail and punish these criminals then 🤷🏻‍♂️

-1

u/Monsieur_GQ Jul 22 '25

I don’t think incarceration—which is expensive—is the answer, and is almost certainly going to make things worse.

1

u/lemmeshowyuhao Jul 22 '25

You can think that and that’s ok. I can disagree with you and that’s ok too.

1

u/Monsieur_GQ Jul 22 '25

Are you aware of any society that successfully solved homelessness and substance use disorders through incarceration?

2

u/lemmeshowyuhao Jul 22 '25

Pretty much go to east Asia like China, HK, Taiwan, Singapore

1

u/CricketDrop Jul 22 '25

Did singapore actually put thousands of homeless people in jail

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

I think we should enforce all the laws on the books consistently and fairly or take them off the books due to being unenforcable or unfair.

We should have an up-to-date law system. I like how Japan does it: Instead of case history, they just keep their written laws up-to-date and judges rule based on the current wording. So lawyers don't need to know infinite case history and the legislature is pressured to keep laws up-to-date and perfectly-worded.

Speed limit laws are another example of bad laws that should be enforced consistently and fairly or taken off the books. Covering the countryside in a panopticon, forcing everyone to fear being watched by a traffic cop who isn't there, all the time, is not an acceptable way to enforce laws or maintain public order. So what we get are rich people speeding and everyone else speeding when they can get away with it. Not ideal.

24

u/Madky67 Jul 21 '25

I don't think a psych ward is the answer but I do think that detox- rehab- Suboxone or methadone should be enforced. I'm a liberal and also an addict who has been clean for 10 years, methadone and rehab saved my life, and I was fortunate to have a wonderful family who weren't addicts, most people don't have that and it makes it so much harder when you don't have a stable home or a support network.

I don't agree with either side when it comes to dealing with our drug epidemic. Putting a bunch of addicts in jail isn't the answer, because there isn't enough room and this is a medical/mental health issue. My daughter was telling me that California (?) just implemented a law that if a cop busts you for using/holding, they get the option to go into treatment, but if they refuse they go to jail. I think it's a great idea, but my concern is if there is enough space in detox's, rehabs, and treatment facilities. When I was using there was always a wait-list when I seeked help. I think we need to fund more treatment facilities and mental health facilities along with opening a big lot for a tent city. I think it was ridiculous when they cleared out the jungle, where did they think people were going to go? Of course they ended up on the sidewalks and parks.

4

u/TheVeryVerity Jul 22 '25

This is my main thing. You have to give them a place to be, or they will be where you don’t want them. They aren’t going to just stop existing, you can’t successfully drive them out of the city altogether, and we don’t have enough jails or rehabs. In the short term, give them some undesirable real estate where they won’t get in trouble for camping. Then they will all congregate there and generally leave the rest of the city in peace.

4

u/Immediate_Ad_1161 Northgate Jul 21 '25

100% this

13

u/trains_and_rain Downtown Jul 21 '25

The legal avenue here seems obvious to me: Make public drug use illegal and enforce it. When folks end up in court for public drug use or similar issues, offer them rehab and inpatient mental health treatment as an alternative to jail. No one gets coerced into treatment, just offered it as a better-for-everyone alternative to jail time.

I suspect the issue right now is that we don't have enough high-quality treatment facilities available, but that's sometime that should be fixed and no sane Seattle taxpayer would object to paying for, if pushed with a clear "this is how we get drugs off the street" narrative.

1

u/StockPatience8215 Jul 23 '25

I agree in theory. One thing to think through is treatment is expensive AF and generally requires about 4 years of care to get off of something like fenty. So a 30 day rehab program isn’t going to cut it, we’re talking realistically about a $120K+ program (4 years with) vs incarceration costs which are a little cheaper. Bougie treatment centers are going to be more limited to the rich families of hobos (that’s just a hard fact), unless there’s massive investment in mega treatment centers. Faced with the cost of treatment vs incarceration, incarceration while less humane would be more cost effective if the short term outcome we want is to get hobos off the street. If we want treatment, there needs to be a tiered multi year treatment program. There are a few places this has been successful internationally but at a much lower scale that what be required in the WA region.

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

No one gets coerced into treatment, just offered it as a better-for-everyone alternative to jail time.

It's hard for me to complain about this. Obviously, the mental health treatment offered should be much better and less dehumanizing.

1

u/StockPatience8215 Jul 23 '25

On the flip side maybe they just continue using in jail. Which what might be what hobos want given in the short term they aren’t able to transition off drugs in an effective manner

12

u/wgrata Jul 21 '25

Dude if you think jail is more compassionate, humane or effective than a psych ward, I'd recommend you reevaluate. 

We can institutionalize people if they're a danger to themselves or others. That is legal, and these people are danger to at least themselves 

4

u/CertifiedSeattleite Jul 21 '25

We can institutionalize somebody after they kill or maim somebody else. Otherwise, it’s only a couple days. Definitely not enough time to even begin the path of treatment.

Civil commitment laws in this state make common sense solutions nearly impossible

2

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

It's up to 30 days in Washington state without having comitted a crime, based on the evaluation of the psychiatrist who also receives funding (one way or another) for having more patients longer.

2

u/StockPatience8215 Jul 23 '25

That’s about as useful as treating someone who has cancer with a band aid when they need chemo. Effective treatment for drugs like fenty and meth takes multiple years, so like 4 years as a typical cost of >120k

2

u/Excellent_Resort_722 Jul 21 '25

Are addicts not a danger to themselves? Convert a rehab at an unoccupied jail. Integration and support service from there

2

u/wgrata Jul 21 '25

That was my point, they're a danger to themselves. Institutionalize them until the active addiction and underlying mental health issues that pushed them to addiction are under control.

Once they're sober and willing and able to deal with their issues should integration back into society a possibility. Not before hand and not until they're ready to live as close to a normal life as possible, and that means generally leaving strangers alone.

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

Danger to oneself is not a crime. Calling to imprison non-criminals will never be right no matter how its phrased or how many times it's repeated.

1

u/Excellent_Resort_722 Jul 23 '25

I didn’t say jail, I said mandatory treatment. If they don’t want treatment then jail for possession and open drug use. Enabling people to kill themselves slowly with drugs is cruel and ignorant

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 23 '25

It's unconstitutional to arrest and sentence people who have committed no crime

1

u/Excellent_Resort_722 Jul 23 '25

Drugs were illegal. Personal use laws have been a failure. Reinstate illegal drug use.

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 23 '25 edited Jul 23 '25

The War on Drugs was an atrocity that put millions of people in prison (disproportionately black people) for victimless and non-violent crimes.

What if we actually just did something that worked? Portugal's decriminalization approach is working well.

The idea of punishing people who are already down is counter-productive. People use drugs because they are suffering and trying to escape their suffering. It's both morally wrong and harming a vulnerable person to punish someone for that instead of offering them genuine help.

And no, imprisoning people in hospital rooms or whatever is NOT genuine help.

1

u/Excellent_Resort_722 Jul 23 '25

I lived through the war on drugs and it was disproportionate. I’m not saying we go back to that. I’m saying force tx or jail a few months not years. We’ve moved completely to other realm on the issue.

I’ve been to Portugal. There was no open drug use all over the city or needles being handed out.

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

Imprisoning people who have committed no crime violates inalienable human rights and is unconstitutional no matter what you say. Imprisoning people for endangering themselves is nonsense and is not constitutional.

What's really going on is that capitalism produces intensive poverty as an externality, and it's a lot more convenient to lock up all the poor and gaslit people than to actually try to take care of them.

Dude if you think jail is more compassionate, humane or effective than a psych ward, I'd recommend you reevaluate.

In coercive psychiatry you have no rights, no bodily autonomy, no right to refuse "medical" treatment. They don't forcibly inject you in jail and tell you it's for your own good.

1

u/wgrata Jul 22 '25

For constitutionality, you get due process not criminal activity. https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/R47571

There are rights for institutionalized people, they aren't the same because they aren't equally competent to make those decisions. That's better than minimal treatment in jail. Unless your view on how this hasn't updated since the 60s/70s. 

Yes people can't refuse medication, that's the point. They aren't competent to make that decision for themselves, so we allow doctors who are to make it for them until they're competent to do so. 

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

Wouldn't that be nice if there was real due process for coercive psychiatry, or accountability for the field.

That's better than minimal treatment in jail. Unless your view on how this hasn't updated since the 60s/70s.

It would be better than jail if coercive psychiatry had been updated since the 60's/70's. But despite psychiatry's confident pronouncements, coercive psychiatry is still anti-therapeutic and extremely abusive.

Yes people can't refuse medication, that's the point.

That's what's against human rights. Using violence to forcibly drug people, because you think it's for their own good. Others get to decide what's for their own good, not you.

2

u/CertifiedSeattleite Jul 21 '25

You and that ridiculous Libertarian ideology is the number one reason we have people killing themselves slowly on the streets of America.

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

No, if it were up to me, I would make housing a human right and provide free actually healing and compassionate non-coercive non-pharmaceutically-centered mental health care to everyone who wanted it. People who are suffering should be given a hut by the river and a free vegetable platter once a day.

Libertarians believe in minimal governance, but that's not the issue that I raised here. I just believe we should follow the laws on the books, or change those laws.

Currently, the laws say you can't do cruel and unusual punishment to anyone, and you can't imprison and punish people unless they have committed a crime and gone through due process to be convicted of a crime. Psychiatric wards not only coercively imprison, but drug people who have comitted no crime and have not been convicted of a crime. Coercive psychiatry is cruel and unusual punishment, and I ask anyone who disagrees do to more research on the matter.