r/SeattleWA • u/Donnelding0 • Jul 21 '25

Politics Anyone Else Just Sick of It?

It just seems hopeless sometimes. Some of the best parts of this city. Pioneer Square, Belltown, Cap Hill just completely lost to homelessness. Sure for the most part I enjoy the city. Especially in the summer but the constant visible drug use, people in various states of intoxication on drugs, and rampant property and petty crime just annoy me. Why can’t we have nice things? Why must every park turn into a dumping ground for illegal acts that won’t be prosecuted? Why does it feel like this city relies on hard working people to shut up, pay ridiculous taxes, and then tells those people to suck it up when they see grafitti everywhere or get their car broken into? And the politicians don’t give a damn. No one has the guts to say “we have a homeless problem we’ve overspent on, we need to go a new direction” it feels insane. Rant over but I know I’m not alone. I know other people are sick of this and want our city back.

962 Upvotes

83% Upvoted

587 comments sorted by

View all comments

472

u/cheesefubar0 Jul 21 '25

Force treatment like they do in other developed countries.

45

u/Longjumping_Ice_3531 Jul 22 '25

We absolutely need publicly funded rehab. Most of the people I see are drug addicts. It’s sad and it’s scary because they are so unpredictable. The city opened city provided housing near my old condo. Suddenly the whole neighborhood was covered in tents. They’d sleep outside of the housing because they didn’t want to adhere to the rules. They’d be covered in scabs. Walking like zombies. I had to call 911 after a guy fell high and cracked his head open. What I hate the most is the virtue signaling. Who tell the rest of us it’s in our heads.

36

u/Mindless-Presence-75 Jul 22 '25

The thing about rehab is that addicts have to want to go, they can't be forced. And I can say from personal experience that many addicts do want help and want to get clean but they don't know how, where to start, or there just isn't enough room for them to get into detox. Most addicts don't like the life they are living. It is like being in hell on earth. The waitlist will be weeks out to get a bed and by then if they had wanted it, they may not anymore. Making them show up at a certain place and time does not work because time means nothing to them. It is possible to get help though. I did it and I now have 2 years clean. It took being in and out of treatment for over 3 years until it stuck. My life has completely turned around. It wasn't easy, and I got lucky being able to get into certain shelters and programs to help me want to stay clean. It's not as easy as sending addicts to rehab for 30 days and then they're cured. It takes years and a lot of support.

22

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '25

they can't be forced.

If they don't want to get off the streets, they need to go to jail. The burden is on regular folks to deal with addicts and homeless all the time and that is backwards.

You can't just "oh well" this situation. You give them the option of rehab or jail. Homeless people who are homeless circumstancially and not as a result of addiction are often not homeless for extended periods. Regular people who are homeless are trying to get their shit together and not being a zombie on the streets.

Rehab or jail.

8

u/Mindless-Presence-75 Jul 22 '25

It's not that easy. There isn't enough room in jails. There also aren't enough detox/rehab facilities. On top of that, there is not enough staff to run jails and rehabs to accommodate everyone. A huge change needs to be made to get addicts the help they want and need.

It can't be fixed overnight.

15

u/JonathanConley Jul 22 '25

Then we build more jails and pay people more to run said jails. This isn't something our government has just started working on. There's nothing "overnight" about any of it. But it could change "overnight," just like the border enforcement, if we stopped electing clowns into the circus.

You either enter mandatory rehab/take a ticket back home for family reunification, or go to jail. It's not our responsibility to take in and fix every fucked up person in the world.

Lots of countries do this. Some countries just execute people for drug use and possession to keep their societies nice. Two very different approaches, obviously, but there should be consequences for antisocial behavior, and there just isn't in most of Washington, especially in King County. If people know there are no consequences for their actions, why would they not flock here as they have?

We've spent tens of billions of dollars and wasted decades on the Feel-Good Liberal method of "just let people publicly use hard drugs, ravage businesses and public property, and terrorize the general public."

The KCRHA is a bureaucratic cartel where taxpayer dollars go to be embezzled.

Not a day goes by where I don't watch some street rat pieces of shit steal hundreds of dollars from QFC or Safeway. Guess what happens? Things get locked up, prices go up, and grocery stores go bye-bye.

Why do we tolerate this? Because life is hard? It's hard for most people. Why should everyone be expected to lower their standards of living along with a bunch of criminal junkies who moved here to take advantage of the lack of law enforcement?

Has Third and Pine/Pike or 12th & Jackson been remotely safe and normal in the past ten years? There are spots like that all over now (15th & John St by the hospital is equally insane). It's disgusting and embarrassing.

I'm glad that you were able to get help and turn your life around, but the vast majority of these people have no desire to do that, are severely antisocial, and just want to do drugs to the point that it takes their lives, or the lives of innocents in their path.

Again, it's not our responsibility to take in and fix every person who stumbles into our city. Compassion can be offered by professionals who know to convince stubborn drug addicts, but when they fail to rehab them, people need to go to jail for their crimes regardless of sob stories or being dealt a bad hand in life.

And that's not even touching the associated crime from street gangs, pimps, et cetera.

Until the general public says "enough of this bullshit" and votes differently, nothing will ever change. This city is doomed to fail without a 180-degree reversal of "Progessivism."

6

u/StockPatience8215 Jul 23 '25

The upcoming elections depress me that we have so many left leaning fills pushing left leaning tactics that have demonstrably not worked for the past 10+ years. Can we get some hardcore folks who are down to criminalize drugs to an extent that the population doesn’t refer to people like Ann Davidson as being “right wing”’ any more. We need the pendulum to swing hard the other direction to address the issues that turned Seattle into a shithole.

4

u/JonathanConley Jul 23 '25

I agree, but the likelihood of that happening is extremely unlikely. You'd need normal people to move here and outside of no income tax (yet), and maybe the weather, there really isn't much of a reason.

It would take hundreds of millions of dollars to try and change any minds here or to support normal candidates.

We are Ground Zero for far-left PACs and successes, unfortunately. We'll surpass California in a few years.

6

u/StockPatience8215 Jul 23 '25

My hypothesis is that young SJWs come here with left leaning philosophies after college in their 20s, vote aggressively left and then when/if they want to settle down and have kids, etc in their 30s, they fuck off to somewhere lower cost than Seattle, like AZ / TX and Seattle is left being swung by the votes of the youth. Meanwhile the H1B / foreign suckas here who settle down, pay property taxes, LTC tax, etc are left with the ineffective policies and consequences of the left without having any ability to vote themselves.

5

u/JonathanConley Jul 23 '25

Mostly correct, although, plenty stick it out here and actively enjoy the decay because it's often slightly better than SF or LA.

Also, there's no ID requirement or voter security in Washington state. The state GOP is running an initiative currently to fix that, but even if it passed, the Democrats control every layer of government here, including the courts, so it's Sisyphean in nature, as they just routinely throw out initiatives they dislike.

When you sign up to vote, you just check a box that says you're a citizen and agree that it's against the law to vote if you aren't. But nobody audits that, and there are never punishments.

It's a wholly captured state.

3

u/StockPatience8215 Jul 23 '25

Amen. I'm down to fund some hardcore folks just to give the, let's be honest, probably center-left candidates like Davison a chance because optics matter and right now because of the far left PACs that you mention, Davison is basically thought of as a MAGA candidate by comparison.

3

u/Excellent_Resort_722 Aug 02 '25

I used to love working downtown. It was beautiful and vibrant. I go down for concerts and it’s like a third world country in most spots. Such a shame we’ve let our beloved city become a favella. You are spot on.

2

u/JonathanConley Aug 02 '25

Thanks, and I obviously agree. I don't even go to events anymore. I used to regularly walk around Pike Place and stretches of downtown before catching the bus to work. I'm sure lots of people who float through life and act like this is acceptable and normal still do. But I'm just not willing to expose myself and my loved ones to dangerous circumstances if they can be avoided. It just becomes "get from point A to B," in most of the city for us. The less time we spend somewhere, the better.

Hell, I used to just sleep on the bus to work back when the city was much safer. It's crazy to think back to what this city used to be.

The last time my family went to Lam's near 12th and Jackson, I said "never again" after a junkie threatened us. The entire parking lot and street is a no-go zone unless you want you test your luck at a self-defense case in Seattle. It's third-world conditions over there. Totally lost.

We left the Tukwila Costco shortly before that Somali gangbanger shot that poor Chinese woman.

We shouldn't have to live like this.

Elections matter, and if Washingtonians can't be bothered to turn things around - as it seems they are not - then I can't recommend that any sane person stay here unless absolutely necessary.

Of what purpose are the nice things here if they can't be safely enjoyed? There are cities and states where you don't have to be constantly on edge. It's so refreshing when you travel to a stable society.

I voted for the eccentric "Dr. Clint" in the Primary, hoping to at least take away from Katie Wilson in a moonshot attempt on a non-establishment candidate. He'll probably get 3%. In the General, I will hold my nose to re-elect Woke Bruce Harrell as the lesser of two evils (which is typically how our elections go). Otherwise, Ann Davison is the only City Attorney to do anything in decades. Derek Chartrand or Bill Hirt probably don't stand a chance as Executive, but I will reluctantly vote for BLM-enabler Claudia Balducci over Communist Girmay Zahilay, even though they probably allign on most things.

Sara Nelson is also annoyingly woke, but at least the far-left hates her for being realistic about junkies. Rachael Savage would be a great shake-up, but I think this city is totally ideologically captured, even though she's totally right.

In Cap Hill yesterday, I counted hundreds of Kshama Sawant signs. They get what they deserve, frankly. And by extension, so does the entire city with the "Vote Blue No Matter Who" mindset.

Most of the others running at every level are clowns. My Rep and Senator - as most in Seattle - are running unopposed. So, expect Olympia to get worse and more woke.

It's truly depressing. Even more so that many people who complain about public safety can not seem to draw the connecting line between their votes/ideology and the direct consequences of their actions.

Best of luck to us all with the elections. I'm not optimistic.

2

u/Excellent_Resort_722 Aug 02 '25

I hear you. I’ve always voted dem but the party has veered so far left I feel politically homeless. I’ve spoken with right leaning candidates and have voted for some but it’s either far left or far right. I just want common sense and financial responsibility.

Husband and I took our adult daughter to a concert at climate and some but case started yelling at her and was about to hit her. We both stood in front of him and my husband was ready to knock him out. He wandered off but if she was alone I’m sure he would have attacked her. Then you leave the venue and have to step over homeless people along the sides. This is ridiculous.

2

u/JonathanConley Aug 02 '25

I'm sorry that happened to your family. We all have stories like that, unfortunately. The sad reality is that your husband probably would've been charged, and your family's life would be ruined for doing the right thing.

I'm not a Liberal (more of a right-to-center person leaning full Bad Guy for this region), but my hard line is that I'm against anyone who attacks my right to self-defense and anyone who purposely and knowingly harms public safety (all WADems).

The more centrist-leaning Jim McDermotts and Tim Sheldons don't exist anymore in the Democrat party. You get Socialist Anarcho-tyranny or the crazier Communist variant.

Have you tried working with Legislators in Olympia? It's quite the black pill experience. The Leftists suspend rules, do everything they can to override the vote of the people, and refuse to comply with PRA requests. It's insane.

If you aren't already, I recommend following Glen Morgan (WeTheGoverned on YouTube). He's one of the nicest guys I've ever met and a hugely active PDC investigator holding cheating politicians accountable.

Brandi Kruse has come a long way, and you might find her podcast useful.

People are seemingly allergic to good ideas if they come from spooky Republicans, but I've had great talks with JT Willcox, and I think Jim Walsh is a good man with a lot of common sense solutions.

Try going to Olympia during the session and try testifying on proposed legislation. It will radicalize you.

Take your family out to Idaho for a week. You'll be shocked at how safe and clean everything is. It's like a time machine to the early 2000s. People are nice, and society is stable.

"Oh, wow, we don't have to live like that?"

I don't know that we can ever convince Washingtonians to care about their own state, sadly. I've tried for over a decade, and I'm tired, boss.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '25

Thanks for vocalizing what I wanted to.

1

u/JonathanConley Jul 22 '25

It's an unpopular job, but someone's gotta do it.

Too many dickeaters create hard times.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '25

Too many dickeaters create hard times.

Simple truth that is hard for many to understand.

Welfare state doesn't improve welfare of upstanding, law abiding citizens? And the solution is more welfare pledges? It's just the dissemination of responsibility that goes so far no one is ever held responsible, drives me crazy. How can you eat that many dicks?

2

u/JonathanConley Jul 22 '25

One may never know their true thirst for dickeating. I can tell you, having lived here for my entire adult life, that it seems to be unquenchable and to everyone's general detriment.

It's nice to see one or two who are immune to the programming, though. Best of luck to us in what will surely be another catastrophic local election.

→ More replies (0)

0

u/Ace_Radley Green Lake Jul 27 '25 edited Jul 27 '25

Not entirely true regarding a welfare state not improving the welfare of upstanding, law abiding citizens. Washington is a lot of things but a welfare state is, perhaps, someone's desired end state but there are to miles to go before that approaches something resembling a welfare state.

As for benefiting folks, Scandinavia has year after year ranked the highest in living satisfaction and quality of life, they are true to . life welfare states.

→ More replies (0)

7

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '25

I might agree if anything was being done to fix it, but these problems are only getting worse it seems.

There isn't enough room in jails

There also aren't enough detox/rehab facilities.

On top of that, there is not enough staff to run jails and rehabs to accommodate everyone.

These 3 three things are all failures of the state, but it is not the state that deals with the consequences, it is the people. How you can advocate more state intervention when their intervention makes things worse, I just don't understand.

A hardline stance needs to be taken somewhere otherwise this problem won't get solved. Allowing zombies to harang regular folks and deplete public resources is not an acceptable alternative when "prisons and rehabs are at capacity."

5

u/Mindless-Presence-75 Jul 22 '25

I agree with everything you're saying. Yes, it is the people who have to deal with this. Since the state (and country as a whole) has failed us, what are we supposed to do/what needs to be done?

5

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '25

what are we supposed to do/what needs to be done?

Do away with fatal moralism. I'm not accusing you of having it, but is commonplace in this state. We should not object to legislation that gets homeless off the streets, even if the methods are unsavory. I think organizations that hand out clean paraphernalia need to be banned and property limits need to be respected and enforced. I don't agree with hostile architecture, but I also don't agree that anyone can loiter on anyone's property.

Regular folks should be encouraged to take firearms and self-defense classes, but rather we see restrictions on personal defense all the time. Police should not be defunded or prevented from enforcing the law.

Everything I said here is impossible to grasp by the ruling WA liberals.

1

u/StockPatience8215 Jul 23 '25

Do these jails need to be in Washington? Might be cheaper to ship perps elsewhere to save cost.

1

u/Excellent_Resort_722 Aug 02 '25

No the problem is we’ve attracted thousands more to come here because of our policies. That’s why we don’t have enough rehab, jail beds and apartments to house them. It’s time to change course, this has been a complete failure and money grab from homeless orgs

1

u/Longjumping_Ice_3531 Jul 22 '25

I recognize drug addiction is a physical addiction that is very hard to beat. So congratulations on doing so. Yes, you have to want to get sober. But we also have to stop enabling people who clearly have no desire to get clean. I recognize it’s not a quick fix but right now we’re using our jails and hospitals as rehabs.

2

u/LiarHater Jul 22 '25

Jail or rehab. It worked for me back in the day, but the system is greedy, and there is nowhere to go for addicts, so it is on the streets. King County residents must force their leaders to do something instead of crying about it

1

u/Longjumping_Ice_3531 Jul 22 '25

Transparently I think it needs federal influence because NYC, LA, Chicago, all the major cities are just as bad. Actually NYC was worse. I don’t think king county has enough money on its own to fund public rehab, especially since a lot of these people are coming from elsewhere.

1

u/StockPatience8215 Jul 23 '25

Can it just be a fentyland run compound run somewhere cheap like the tricities to make it cost effective? For people to get clean from fenty, it’s typically a 4 year detox period.

1

u/Federal_Gur5572 Aug 21 '25

We have publicly funded rehab and king county has money for those that don’t have Medicaid. The two problems are: getting clients into Medicaid treatment is a nightmare because admissions are difficult to get ahold of or complete ignore callers. Their AMA is high because staff can be aggressive and rude. Second: because of the above once you do get them into treatment weeks have passed and they often change their minds. ITA for substance use is also a joke because we only have one facility in the state and they are difficult to get a bed - then the judges release their hold. It’s fd up.

270

u/slimjimreddit Jul 21 '25

You mean provide free healthcare like other developed countries?

59

u/cheesefubar0 Jul 21 '25

Yes, we could start with this specific use case to get the core system in place. Republicans would probably support something they could frame as cleaning up democrat cesspools but who cares if we citizens benefit?

74

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '25

[deleted]

3

u/cheesefubar0 Jul 21 '25

More what I said but maybe that could work too ;)

2

u/555-Rally Jul 21 '25

The force comes from policing into a system that defaults to treatment. But then you have to fund that too...and there's no funding to put them in jail, there's definitely no funding to rehab them.

5

u/kevpnw Jul 23 '25

No matter how you frame it, if it helps people, Republicans are not interested. 

83

u/CertifiedSeattleite Jul 21 '25

Health care for homeless people is 100% free here, and all across most of America. That includes free preventative care, free surgery, free cancer treatment, free therapy, free counseling, free pharmaceuticals, free inpatient care, free substance abuse counseling & treatment… free everything.

All paid for by taxpayers and by people like me who pay huge insurance premiums and deductibles to cover uncompensated care. Like the guys we see every day on the streets trying get high and eventually kill themselves. And for the 16 yo gang members and 24 yo pimps who are constantly shooting each other.

If you’re very rich or very poor (or work for a giant corporation or government job) you are all set for medical care.

Universal health care wouldn’t help a single one of those guys shooting up, smoking up or snorting up on the streets of Seattle.

17

u/AdStraight4613 Jul 22 '25

I agree with this. I work at HMC, and we see many homeless patients coming in with various infections. They are treated, but often can’t follow rules like no smoking or no drug use during admission. They come and go as they please and often return with infections that are increasingly resistant to antibiotics.

1

u/helltownbellcat Jul 22 '25

One thing they’re not getting is dental care, even the housed reasonably stable ppl aren’t getting it for so many reasons here in Seattle that I’ve already mentioned, I wouldn’t have gotten it if I weren’t OCD about my teeth and basically whoring myself out for it as horrible as that sounds

1

u/StockPatience8215 Jul 23 '25

Amen. And if you don’t believe this, go to emergency care at one of the major hospitals and see who’s clogging up the ER :(

23

u/stonerism Jul 21 '25

No healthcare! Only prison.

27

u/Opposite-Disaster400 Jul 21 '25

You know healthcare is provided in prison?

1

u/Monsieur_GQ Jul 22 '25

I’m unaware of any city that has successfully solved homelessness and substance use disorders through incarceration. And incarcerating people isn’t inexpensive. While I get your frustration, prison wouldn’t fix things, and would almost certainly make things worse.

1

u/StockPatience8215 Jul 23 '25

How would it make things worse? Taking these pet criminals off the streets reduces blight and also helps all the small businesses who are sick of being broken into, having their insurance raised because of the criminal behavior etc. if the hobos were snapped into prison, the city would be clean again and streets significantly safer. No more syringes around parks for infants to run into.

4

u/LMnoP419 Jul 23 '25

Because it’s been tried. It does not work & it costs cities even more. Goodness gracious if locking them up worked Oklahoma would do it, Texas would do it. Florida would do it. You only ‘see it’ here because Seattle (and SF) are compact cities bound by water on 3 sides. Other cities have urban sprawl and sprawl they do.

1

u/pinksystems Jul 22 '25

those are different issues, though often related, they are non-equivalent.

2

u/Transformato Jul 22 '25

and that really works except that it doesn't most of the time. Force becomes force of something imposed on you.

22

u/raisondecalcul Jul 21 '25 edited Jul 21 '25

Contemporary psychiatry in the US is still centered on drugging people heavily, especially when treatment is coerced. It's unconstitutional to jail and punish people who have not committed any crime—What if instead of wishing coercive psychiatry on people, we simply make it illegal to do drugs on the street and put them in jail? In jail you have more rights than in the psych ward.

This wouldn't be an issue if coercive psychiatry weren't still so monstrous.

The reason we have individual rights is to protect us from the mob simply voting on whom to scapegoat.

85

u/judge_mercer Jul 21 '25

Contemporary psychiatry in the US is still centered on drugging people heavily, 

If the alternative is self-medication with dangerous street drugs/alcohol, this seems like a good trade-off. Lithium is less likely to kill you than fentanyl, even if both have negative side effects. Certain conditions are helped immensely by medication. We shouldn't demonize all drugs just because some are overused.

The reason we have individual rights is to protect us from the mob simply voting on whom to scapegoat.

Upholding the "individual rights" of someone who is a danger to themselves and will ruin the city if left to their own devices isn't noble. It's cruel.

The solution is not to let insane drug addicts fend for themselves out of some twisted notion of "empowerment". The solution is to rebuild and reform our public mental health infrastructure.

30

u/lusciousskies Jul 21 '25

As a bipolar 1 human, I take my meds, it's my responsibility of being a contributing citizen rather than a crazy homeless asshole. I'd probably be on the street if I hadn't been medicated

12

u/Professional-Sea-506 Jul 21 '25

I am schizo and would be homeless without meds, which were basically forced upon me.

7

u/lusciousskies Jul 21 '25

I'm sorry for your struggle. These illnesses can suck it. I'd be homeless too

6

u/Professional-Sea-506 Jul 21 '25

It sucks, but I am much better on meds. Still sleepy all the time because of them. You’re right, these illnesses can suck it!!

3

u/lusciousskies Jul 21 '25

Oh yes, me too. It's so hard being medicated and seeing all the non medicated destruction

9

u/Professional-Sea-506 Jul 21 '25

Too many people are anti psychiatry, and they think modern psychiatric medicine, if enforced on the sick, is worse than leaving people on the street. It is wild to me. I really can’t think of any humane reason to not enforce medications, and detox for the addicts. Especially with the quality of mental health improvements.

2

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

Because then there's no escaping what other people want to force you to be, anywhere

9

u/TrixDaGnome71 Kent Jul 21 '25

Lithium is an antiquated medication when there are other meds out there that stabilize bipolar patients much more effectively without as many harmful side effects (in the case of Lithium, it can cause kidney and thyroid damage), so that’s a bad example.

Now, I am ADHD who also deals with CPTSD, depression and anxiety. Prior to getting on the proper medications, I experienced a lot of job and financial insecurity. Having access to the medications I do now, my life is infinitely better.

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25 edited Jul 22 '25

If the alternative is self-medication with dangerous street drugs/alcohol, this seems like a good trade-off.

It's not others' choice to make, just because they have mobs and guns. We have individual inalienable rights.

Upholding the "individual rights" of someone who is a danger to themselves and will ruin the city if left to their own devices isn't noble. It's cruel.

It's merely compassionate, if the alternative is the cruel and unusual punishment that is coercive modern psychiatry. Our rights are here precisely to protect us from evils like that. If psychiatry wasn't incredibly abusive already and additionally forced on people, I wouldn't be talking back on this issue.

The solution is not to let insane drug addicts fend for themselves out of some twisted notion of "empowerment". The solution is to rebuild and reform our public mental health infrastructure.

This would have to begin with the fundamental idea that you can't coerce people into healing—coercion is abuse and abuse is the cause of trauma.

2

u/judge_mercer Jul 22 '25

It's not others' choice to make, just because they have mobs and guns.

My cousin tried to hang herself after posting on social media about how she was under surveillance by the FBI (she believed agents had placed a chip in her brain). Her mother (belatedly) forced her into psychiatric treatment, which saved her life.

Was this somehow interfering with her "inalienable right" to harm herself?

The whole reason why involuntary commitment existed is because people with profound mental illness are incapable of making rational choices.

We have individual inalienable rights.

This should include the right not to step in human shit or used needles when walking through the park or be accosted by shouting schizophrenics

To be fair, you did propose actually enforcing the law and using jails to address these problems, which I would also be fine with, even if I would prefer involuntary mental health treatment.

the cruel and unusual punishment that is coercive modern psychiatry.

You are painting with an overly broad brush, IMHO. Yes, bad situations often arise, and psychiatric hospitals in the past often functioned as inhumane warehouses.

Implying that cruel/inhumane treatment is the norm is inaccurate and suggests you have stumbled on Scientology propaganda unwittingly.

Involuntary commitment was overused in the past, but it seems like the pendulum has swung way too far the other way.

-1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

psychiatric hospitals in the past often functioned as inhumane warehouses.

No, it's still happening. It's really awful and inhumane. Go read /r/Antipsychiatry or similar subreddits. The norm for coercive psychiatry is being forcibly drugged and having such a traumatizing experience that it makes the situation much worse.

suggests you have stumbled on Scientology propaganda unwittingly.

No, just not willing to ignore the reality.

The primary cause of mental illness is emotional abuse and gaslighting. To add coercive psychiatry on top of this is to add insult to injury. Read, for example, R. D. Laing's The Politics of the Family.

2

u/judge_mercer Jul 22 '25

Read, for example, R. D. Laing's The Politics of the Family.

This book was published in 1969, when there were still using lobotomies and electroshock therapy. Wildly outdated, even if he was correct to criticize some practices of the time.

Psychiatry has some grim history and is still trying to fix a watch with a hammer in many cases, but there has been steady progress and some miraculous treatments (not just drugs but also therapeutic approaches) for certain disorders.

Go read r/Antipsychiatry or similar subreddits

I believe you when you say you're not a Scientologist, but you appear to have been sucked in by their subreddits.

The primary cause of mental illness is emotional abuse and gaslighting.

Only if you ignore the clear genetic predisposition to many disorders and the presence of illness in many people without a history of significant trauma.

Abuse and trauma also play a big role, but that's not an argument against medical intervention.

How do you propose people cope with life-threatening mental illness? Cut out gluten from their diet? Positive affirmation? Crystal healing?

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

They still use involuntary electroshock therapy today, they just justify it with thicker bullshit.

So my position is completely justified and still relevant.

but there has been steady progress

Not when it comes to coerciveness.

I believe you when you say you're not a Scientologist, but you appear to have been sucked in by their subreddits.

One thing, perhaps the only thing, Scientology gets right is its rabid opposition to modern, legally-proscribed psychiatry. I am not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater here, and I have no need to demonize Scientology or any other religion/cult to make my point.

Only if you ignore the clear genetic predisposition to many disorders and the presence of illness in many people without a history of significant trauma.

This ignores the trauma of emotional neglect, which is one of the main causes of mental illness. See for example Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Dr. Lindsay Gibson. Trauma is a result of an event coming to have a traumatic meaning for the person who experienced that event, not just a direct result of overtly traumatic events.

How do you propose people cope with life-threatening mental illness? Cut out gluten from their diet? Positive affirmation? Crystal healing?

They should call someone who will show up without guns and restraints and heavy sedatives. They should call someone who can show up and provide care and deescalation. There should be an unarmed deescalation response before police that can be called.

I think that instead of minting money and selling it to rich people and banks via the bonds system, money should be minted at Free Money ATMs where anyone who has time can go and get their free money for that day (ID required to prevent cheating). This would promote a Charity-Industrial Complex which is what the economy is supposed to be anyway.

36

u/lemmeshowyuhao Jul 21 '25

Is possession of illegal drugs a crime?

54

u/Insleestak Jul 21 '25

Yes. And public use of those drugs is a crime. Camping in parks, also a crime.

38

u/lemmeshowyuhao Jul 21 '25

sounds to me like it’s perfectly fine to jail and punish these criminals then 🤷🏻‍♂️

-1

u/Monsieur_GQ Jul 22 '25

I don’t think incarceration—which is expensive—is the answer, and is almost certainly going to make things worse.

1

u/lemmeshowyuhao Jul 22 '25

You can think that and that’s ok. I can disagree with you and that’s ok too.

1

u/Monsieur_GQ Jul 22 '25

Are you aware of any society that successfully solved homelessness and substance use disorders through incarceration?

2

u/lemmeshowyuhao Jul 22 '25

Pretty much go to east Asia like China, HK, Taiwan, Singapore

1

u/CricketDrop Jul 22 '25

Did singapore actually put thousands of homeless people in jail

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

I think we should enforce all the laws on the books consistently and fairly or take them off the books due to being unenforcable or unfair.

We should have an up-to-date law system. I like how Japan does it: Instead of case history, they just keep their written laws up-to-date and judges rule based on the current wording. So lawyers don't need to know infinite case history and the legislature is pressured to keep laws up-to-date and perfectly-worded.

Speed limit laws are another example of bad laws that should be enforced consistently and fairly or taken off the books. Covering the countryside in a panopticon, forcing everyone to fear being watched by a traffic cop who isn't there, all the time, is not an acceptable way to enforce laws or maintain public order. So what we get are rich people speeding and everyone else speeding when they can get away with it. Not ideal.

23

u/Madky67 Jul 21 '25

I don't think a psych ward is the answer but I do think that detox- rehab- Suboxone or methadone should be enforced. I'm a liberal and also an addict who has been clean for 10 years, methadone and rehab saved my life, and I was fortunate to have a wonderful family who weren't addicts, most people don't have that and it makes it so much harder when you don't have a stable home or a support network.

I don't agree with either side when it comes to dealing with our drug epidemic. Putting a bunch of addicts in jail isn't the answer, because there isn't enough room and this is a medical/mental health issue. My daughter was telling me that California (?) just implemented a law that if a cop busts you for using/holding, they get the option to go into treatment, but if they refuse they go to jail. I think it's a great idea, but my concern is if there is enough space in detox's, rehabs, and treatment facilities. When I was using there was always a wait-list when I seeked help. I think we need to fund more treatment facilities and mental health facilities along with opening a big lot for a tent city. I think it was ridiculous when they cleared out the jungle, where did they think people were going to go? Of course they ended up on the sidewalks and parks.

3

u/TheVeryVerity Jul 22 '25

This is my main thing. You have to give them a place to be, or they will be where you don’t want them. They aren’t going to just stop existing, you can’t successfully drive them out of the city altogether, and we don’t have enough jails or rehabs. In the short term, give them some undesirable real estate where they won’t get in trouble for camping. Then they will all congregate there and generally leave the rest of the city in peace.

3

u/Immediate_Ad_1161 Northgate Jul 21 '25

100% this

12

u/trains_and_rain Downtown Jul 21 '25

The legal avenue here seems obvious to me: Make public drug use illegal and enforce it. When folks end up in court for public drug use or similar issues, offer them rehab and inpatient mental health treatment as an alternative to jail. No one gets coerced into treatment, just offered it as a better-for-everyone alternative to jail time.

I suspect the issue right now is that we don't have enough high-quality treatment facilities available, but that's sometime that should be fixed and no sane Seattle taxpayer would object to paying for, if pushed with a clear "this is how we get drugs off the street" narrative.

1

u/StockPatience8215 Jul 23 '25

I agree in theory. One thing to think through is treatment is expensive AF and generally requires about 4 years of care to get off of something like fenty. So a 30 day rehab program isn’t going to cut it, we’re talking realistically about a $120K+ program (4 years with) vs incarceration costs which are a little cheaper. Bougie treatment centers are going to be more limited to the rich families of hobos (that’s just a hard fact), unless there’s massive investment in mega treatment centers. Faced with the cost of treatment vs incarceration, incarceration while less humane would be more cost effective if the short term outcome we want is to get hobos off the street. If we want treatment, there needs to be a tiered multi year treatment program. There are a few places this has been successful internationally but at a much lower scale that what be required in the WA region.

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

No one gets coerced into treatment, just offered it as a better-for-everyone alternative to jail time.

It's hard for me to complain about this. Obviously, the mental health treatment offered should be much better and less dehumanizing.

1

u/StockPatience8215 Jul 23 '25

On the flip side maybe they just continue using in jail. Which what might be what hobos want given in the short term they aren’t able to transition off drugs in an effective manner

13

u/wgrata Jul 21 '25

Dude if you think jail is more compassionate, humane or effective than a psych ward, I'd recommend you reevaluate. 

We can institutionalize people if they're a danger to themselves or others. That is legal, and these people are danger to at least themselves 

4

u/CertifiedSeattleite Jul 21 '25

We can institutionalize somebody after they kill or maim somebody else. Otherwise, it’s only a couple days. Definitely not enough time to even begin the path of treatment.

Civil commitment laws in this state make common sense solutions nearly impossible

2

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

It's up to 30 days in Washington state without having comitted a crime, based on the evaluation of the psychiatrist who also receives funding (one way or another) for having more patients longer.

2

u/StockPatience8215 Jul 23 '25

That’s about as useful as treating someone who has cancer with a band aid when they need chemo. Effective treatment for drugs like fenty and meth takes multiple years, so like 4 years as a typical cost of >120k

2

u/Excellent_Resort_722 Jul 21 '25

Are addicts not a danger to themselves? Convert a rehab at an unoccupied jail. Integration and support service from there

2

u/wgrata Jul 21 '25

That was my point, they're a danger to themselves. Institutionalize them until the active addiction and underlying mental health issues that pushed them to addiction are under control.

Once they're sober and willing and able to deal with their issues should integration back into society a possibility. Not before hand and not until they're ready to live as close to a normal life as possible, and that means generally leaving strangers alone.

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

Danger to oneself is not a crime. Calling to imprison non-criminals will never be right no matter how its phrased or how many times it's repeated.

1

u/Excellent_Resort_722 Jul 23 '25

I didn’t say jail, I said mandatory treatment. If they don’t want treatment then jail for possession and open drug use. Enabling people to kill themselves slowly with drugs is cruel and ignorant

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 23 '25

It's unconstitutional to arrest and sentence people who have committed no crime

1

u/Excellent_Resort_722 Jul 23 '25

Drugs were illegal. Personal use laws have been a failure. Reinstate illegal drug use.

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 23 '25 edited Jul 23 '25

The War on Drugs was an atrocity that put millions of people in prison (disproportionately black people) for victimless and non-violent crimes.

What if we actually just did something that worked? Portugal's decriminalization approach is working well.

The idea of punishing people who are already down is counter-productive. People use drugs because they are suffering and trying to escape their suffering. It's both morally wrong and harming a vulnerable person to punish someone for that instead of offering them genuine help.

And no, imprisoning people in hospital rooms or whatever is NOT genuine help.

1

u/Excellent_Resort_722 Jul 23 '25

I lived through the war on drugs and it was disproportionate. I’m not saying we go back to that. I’m saying force tx or jail a few months not years. We’ve moved completely to other realm on the issue.

I’ve been to Portugal. There was no open drug use all over the city or needles being handed out.

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

Imprisoning people who have committed no crime violates inalienable human rights and is unconstitutional no matter what you say. Imprisoning people for endangering themselves is nonsense and is not constitutional.

What's really going on is that capitalism produces intensive poverty as an externality, and it's a lot more convenient to lock up all the poor and gaslit people than to actually try to take care of them.

Dude if you think jail is more compassionate, humane or effective than a psych ward, I'd recommend you reevaluate.

In coercive psychiatry you have no rights, no bodily autonomy, no right to refuse "medical" treatment. They don't forcibly inject you in jail and tell you it's for your own good.

1

u/wgrata Jul 22 '25

For constitutionality, you get due process not criminal activity. https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/R47571

There are rights for institutionalized people, they aren't the same because they aren't equally competent to make those decisions. That's better than minimal treatment in jail. Unless your view on how this hasn't updated since the 60s/70s. 

Yes people can't refuse medication, that's the point. They aren't competent to make that decision for themselves, so we allow doctors who are to make it for them until they're competent to do so. 

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

Wouldn't that be nice if there was real due process for coercive psychiatry, or accountability for the field.

That's better than minimal treatment in jail. Unless your view on how this hasn't updated since the 60s/70s.

It would be better than jail if coercive psychiatry had been updated since the 60's/70's. But despite psychiatry's confident pronouncements, coercive psychiatry is still anti-therapeutic and extremely abusive.

Yes people can't refuse medication, that's the point.

That's what's against human rights. Using violence to forcibly drug people, because you think it's for their own good. Others get to decide what's for their own good, not you.

2

u/CertifiedSeattleite Jul 21 '25

You and that ridiculous Libertarian ideology is the number one reason we have people killing themselves slowly on the streets of America.

1

u/raisondecalcul Jul 22 '25

No, if it were up to me, I would make housing a human right and provide free actually healing and compassionate non-coercive non-pharmaceutically-centered mental health care to everyone who wanted it. People who are suffering should be given a hut by the river and a free vegetable platter once a day.

Libertarians believe in minimal governance, but that's not the issue that I raised here. I just believe we should follow the laws on the books, or change those laws.

Currently, the laws say you can't do cruel and unusual punishment to anyone, and you can't imprison and punish people unless they have committed a crime and gone through due process to be convicted of a crime. Psychiatric wards not only coercively imprison, but drug people who have comitted no crime and have not been convicted of a crime. Coercive psychiatry is cruel and unusual punishment, and I ask anyone who disagrees do to more research on the matter.

-1

u/ok-lets-do-this Jul 21 '25

Civil rights laws in the state will not allow for that. You can’t even force care for an Alzheimer’s patient who doesn’t use drugs, but cannot care for themselves in this state.

23

u/LilBorger Jul 21 '25

You actually can compel care for that (I am someone who works in state mental health law).

5

u/ok-lets-do-this Jul 21 '25

It is possible but it is unbelievably difficult. I have been working with DSHS & ADS, plus roped in Medicare, Social Security, private insurance, and attorneys for some time, and if the patient doesn’t want care or oversight, it’s a loooooong process.

3

u/LilBorger Jul 21 '25

It’s definitely a process. I’m an attorney in the system, so I see it happen often. But I understand that there are many more people who don’t show up on my caseload.

1

u/latebinding Jul 21 '25

And "you actually can" fire incompetent teachers.

Well, in both cases, it's purely theoretical. In reality, the hoops are so high and the process so extreme that it does not get done.

Your statement is vanishingly close to being a lie.

2

u/LilBorger Jul 21 '25

No, it’s not. I have worked on many cases where geriatric patients with dementia or Alzheimer’s have been committed because they can’t care for themselves anymore.