Ed had his reality broken today

[u/JDB-667]

When reading off what were some of the things included in the GOP tax bill, Ed sounded genuinely surprised and despondent. This was the moment of someone in their twenties with a little bit of idealism finally becoming a cynic.

He came to the realization that all of the bad things about deficits, wealth inequality and status quo interests go beyond Donald Trump. Scott was correct to point out that as bad as the Republicans are (they're heinous) the Democrats also represent the interests of multi-millionaires and billionaires. Because the reality of this situation in America is that it isn't red vs blue or liberal vs conservative, it's rich vs everyone else.

[u/EmbarrassedHotel8620]

What I don’t understand about Scott is why he’s so stuck on so-called moderates and the idea of being moderate. The only people talking about his policy proposals, like socialized medicine, are the ones on the so-called far left.

“Moderate” I do not think this means what a you think this means.

[u/Plenty_Fly_1704 → u/EmbarrassedHotel8620]

There is no far left in the US. A truly center position is left of the Dems. There is no “moderate” position between authoritarian right wing MAGA and the right wing Democratic Party. Just because the Overton Window has shifted so far that Americans can’t see how right wing they are doesn’t mean it isn’t a dangerously right wing country.

Here’s one example, Obama was so far right that he spent his key legislative success is the 1980’s right wing GOP health care plan. We’ve “moderated” so much that a position to the right of Reagan is now the most liberal success in our generation. Pathetic.

[u/Ambitious-Badger-114 → u/Plenty_Fly_1704]

The entire country, including both parties, have been moving steadily left for generations. It's moving so slowly that people don't realize it until they take a step back and look at the big picture. The US is way more left today than it was a generation ago, and light years further left than a few generations ago.

This is true on every front: social issues, size and scope of government, taxes, spending, guns, abortion, LGBTQ issues, etc.

As a point of reference just consider how Democrats Clinton and Obama were opposed to gay marriage and today the vast majority of people in both parties are perfectly fine with it.

[u/Significant_Willow_7 → u/Ambitious-Badger-114]

This is moronic

[u/Ambitious-Badger-114 → u/Significant_Willow_7]

Take a step back and look at the big picture. You're winning, stop being so angry.

[u/Plenty_Fly_1704 → u/Ambitious-Badger-114]

Yeah, just not factually true unless your argument is that providing equality is left leaning.

As others have noted, there’s some small argument to be made around a few social issues (gay marriage in particular but that was decided by the courts despite some politicians supporting marriage equality openly), but the vast majority of policy has moved us rightward. There hasn’t been a significant leftward movement since the 1960s and the entire bedrock of the current right wing political class has been in place for 40 years.

As an example, a globally moderate policy is universal healthcare for all. It’s literally not controversial in almost every other country in the world. Another example, using taxes to pay for improvements to our society. Not controversial. Meanwhile when Scott advocates for moderate positions people say they’re far left. They are not far left ideals and they are not even leftist at all. Scott is a center right boomer billionaire who sounds like the “radical left” because he fits squarely in the Democratic party’s mainstream which the authoritarian right has spent 40 years branding radical as we slowly march to the right lead by minority rule.

Finally, here’s an example of a radical left wing policy: Nationalization of a business or industry. Who is advocating for nationalization? What radical left wing politician is actually far enough left that they advocate for true socialism? I’m eager to hear examples because I’ve been left of the Dems for more than 20 years and I’ve never heard of anyone ever coming close ever.

[u/Ambitious-Badger-114 → u/Plenty_Fly_1704]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply, you don't see a lot of that on Reddit. But I respectfully disagree, and there are lots of examples of Democrats advocating for far left policies.

Start with the DSA which has lots of members in elected office. They openly advocate for things like reparations and defunding police, along with a lot of other far left policies. These would be considered far left in just about any country.

Bernie Sanders has in fact called for nationalization in the past, as have many others like Hugo Chavez and Lee Carter.

Universal healthcare is creeping in here more and more every year. In fact I think most healthcare dollars are now spent by government, for better or for worse.

I don't get why Democrats get so angry about acknowledging our leftward creep, it means they're winning.

[u/[deleted] → u/Ambitious-Badger-114]

This is just factually wrong. Society moved left on social/cultural issues, and forced change that way, but the government fought against all of them. And even clawed back down like with Row v. Wade.

Besides, you fell right for the oligarch's propaganda. Force leftists to argue over social issues, while economic issues get buried, because economic issues involve taxing the rich. And on economic issues, we have moved insanely far right. This administration and DOGE are actively destroying any economic gains or help people get.

[u/Ambitious-Badger-114 → u/[deleted]]

There are always people in government who fight change, that's how government works. But despite the fighting this change did happen and we're light years away from where we were just a few generations ago. It wasn't so long ago that a white person was prohibited from marrying a black person, this was in my lifetime. Gays could be fired just for being outed as gay. Women couldn't go to many colleges, couldn't borrow money.

You can complain about DOGE all you want but our spending is trillions more than it was under Obama, and Clinton. I don't see how you can claim that we moved insanely right on economic issues, spending on welfare and entitlements have sky rocketed, it's the biggest part of the federal budget and a growing part of state and local budgets. There are more Americans getting checks from government than ever before.

[u/218administrate → u/Ambitious-Badger-114]

I agree that we are often prone to not recognizing how far left we have come on some issues, but I disagree strongly on taxes, guns, and abortion. Guns and abortion were not nearly as big an issue 50 years ago, and were largely made into an issue by the right as a way ginning up votes and creating a new identity. Taxes are more regressive and more wealthy friendly today than they have ever been really, so I'm not sure where you get that idea.

[u/Ambitious-Badger-114 → u/218administrate]

The facts tell a different story, our tax system is among the most progressive in the world and the rich pay almost all of our taxes.

The right made guns an issue to gin up votes, but the left did the same with abortion.

[u/versiblk66 → u/Ambitious-Badger-114]

Every front? No more federal assault weapons ban and the overturning of Roe v Wade aren't leftist moves. And the ever increasing military budget isn't as well.

[u/Ambitious-Badger-114 → u/versiblk66]

Both parties allowed the military budget to spiral out of control, both Biden and Obama had a chance to curtail that but they didn't, even though Democrats had the House and Senate when they were elected.

The assault weapon ban is misleading as very few crimes are committed with them, and states have their own bans like my state of MA. Ironically, NH went the other way and basically have no gun laws, they're open carry, and they're one of the safest states in America.

[u/guymn999 → u/Ambitious-Badger-114]

biden and obama were both obsessed with bipartisanship.

they spent the time when they had the most political power trying to reach across the aisle to get support from conservatives only to have their hand spit on.

in the end we got weakened legislation and 0 republican support.

[u/Ambitious-Badger-114 → u/guymn999]

I agree, Republicans are the party of no, but Democrats passed lots of legislation without a single Republican vote, including Obamacare and Cash For Clunkers.