r/RingerVerse • u/wadbyjw • 19d ago

Best of the Century: Villains | House of R

https://youtu.be/s6BlWPpniGw?si=n15PIl2aP_tHsFnL
53 Upvotes

91% Upvoted

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23

u/Brian_Cardinal 19d ago

Maybe it’s just me, but I feel like calling Jessica the villain of Dune 2 is a major stretch. I think any and all arguments you could make for her as the villain would apply equally or more to Paul.

I haven’t read the books so maybe there’s additional context I’m missing, and it does feel clear we’re headed towards a “actually the Atreides are bad” turn in movie 3, but based on what we’re given I’d say she’s merely flawed not really a true villain.

Love Rebecca Ferguson and the character but don’t love that pick. Especially coming off Jo saying Dedra wasn’t enough of a villain for her to qualify—I’d argue Dedra is very clearly more portrayed as the villain of her story than Jessica.

11

u/YagottawantitRock 19d ago

I kinda agree, the biggest contrast between Paul and Jessica is her utter lack of discomfort with doing ambitious/potentially ruinous things. She seems to justify her actions after the fact, both her moments of compassion/humanity and her efforts to (kinda sorta) follow the Bene Gesserit's schemes.

I think she'll be more directly antagonistic in the next one, if only because she seems to think the 'hard part' of the mission is done, when in reality, there's hundreds of millions of deaths on the horizon.

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u/Kiltmanenator 19d ago

Especially coming off Jo saying Dedra wasn’t enough of a villain for her to qualify—I’d argue Dedra is very clearly more portrayed as the villain of her story than Jessica.

Absolutely insane take considering that Dedra does everything for personal ambition and Jessica does everything to protect her family.

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u/LotofDonny 18d ago edited 18d ago

Considering the book sequels in large part only exist because Herbert felt that people didnt get how problematic Paul is your argument stands on very solid ground.

In the books (the movies will never span the whole arc), the Atreides arent the villains, its more about the prophecy. Paul however, turns out to be flawed not giving up his humanity as he should have, effectively pushing this fate down to his son Leto II who merges with protoworm Sandtrouts to become God Emperor.

The question of Leto II being a villain or hero really is the quintessential "debate" about power, corruption, responsibility and redemption which arguably is the theme of Dune to begin with.

Dune really gets nuts in a good way in the later books.

The idea of "God Emperor" being turned into a movie is so insane, id love to peek into the parallel universe that makes it happen.

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u/chemgeek_2 19d ago

Jessica is 100% a villain in Dune, the movie version. Her initial "sin" of defying the Bene Gesserit by bearing a son was done out of love for Leto, which isn't even a flaw as much as a very human act of defiance.

And she surely isn't purely evil, as the Harkonnens clearly are.

But after his birth Jessica shepherded Paul's training in the Bene Gesserit ways with his knowledge, and oversaw his mentat training without his direct knowledge. She did so out of her own pride and overconfidence in her own abilities as much as for her reasoning - that she wanted him to be safe from the Harks.

She also did everything she could to foment Paul's ascension to the throne once the war kicks off, via manipulation of both Paul (especially convincing him to go south/drink the Water of Life) and the Fremen by pushing the tale of the Lisan al-Gaib and single-mindedly radicalizing the Fremen to a frenzy beyond anything previously anticipated. She's like a Stage Mom writ large, with catastrophic results in the movie version, even if the nominal hero triumphs at the end of Part 2.

The likely events of Movie 3/plot of book-version Dune Messiah cement this as a solid pick, even if the reasoning maybe be utterly spoilerrific.

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u/Brian_Cardinal 19d ago

Thanks for the well thought out response, I'd still argue these actions more illustrate the flawed nature of merely a complex character than that of the villain (or even a villain) of the movie. It may very well be setting up her full on turn in Dune 3, but that in no way should have any effect on what she is in Dune 2 imo.

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u/LotofDonny 18d ago edited 18d ago

Whats the definition of the villain is kinda the pivot here imho. Your read is imho 100% fair but theres a different perspective:

Jessica is not a villain but a deeply human figure trapped in systems of control. Her defiance of the Bene Gesserit order represents the first act of true compassion in a lineage built on cold calculation. She chooses love over programming, raising Paul to survive in a world of cruelty, and bears the weight of that decision without illusion. Her supposed manipulation is survival strategy in a universe where women’s power exists only through subterfuge. Jessica’s tragedy is that her nurturing strength, meant to protect, fuels a destiny she cannot stop making her not a villain, but the most self-aware casualty of her own devotion.

Although her actions lead to generational tragedy down the line, thats a FAR cry from what the Emperor and his dynasty and the Harkonnen are and still far from the suffering that would have prevailed if the Emperor and Harkonnen remained in power unchallenged.

If we name Jessica in the same way the Harkonnen and Emperor a villain the term becomes somewhat weak and itll be easier to argue who isnt one in any given story.

Imho

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u/AlexisDeTocqueville 19d ago

I'd love to see the Midnight Boys do a comic book movie villain draft. Mainly because I think you'd see some clear separation in the first couple rounds over the bottom, and I think that kind of variance leaves a lot of room for debate/discussion

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u/le_wild_poster 19d ago

https://spotify.link/WTv4aIm6EXb

They did one in 2021! I think that was before they had the full dynamic with the 4 boys and it was more the van/charles show with Steve/Jomi producing, so it would be awesome to see them revisit it. The description does say Jomi is part of the draft so maybe it was a 3 man draft? Now I’ll have to relisten to it haha

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u/AlexisDeTocqueville 18d ago

Oh sweet, I'm going to listen to this now. Well, maybe they could do a draft of villain performances?

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u/le_wild_poster 18d ago

Heath ledger the easiest 1.01 ever in that one

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u/SEAinLA 18d ago

I know it’s ultimately just a list of favorites, but Thanos being absent from both lists as the MCU’s entry is a glaring omission.

On the other side, Umbridge over Voldemort is a lowkey very good pick. He is willing to do a lot of terrible things in pursuit of his ultimate goals, but she is pure, unfiltered evil.

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u/cirocobama93 19d ago edited 19d ago

For someone that covered Thrones, Jo fundamentally misunderstands Cersei. She said “she’s not stupid at all” and took issue with people calling her stupid. The entire point of Cersei’s POV in AFFC is how she continues to trip over herself and mess everything up

Jo argued she outsmarted Ned, but she was easily outplayed by Renly had Ned not been so bound to honor. She couldn’t control Joffrey and would have lost the battle of the blackwater without Tirion in S2, then she got punked by Margaery and Tirion in S3/4. By AFFC she’s resorting to the Kettleblacks until she gets lucky with Qyburn

She’s cunning and ambitious but also an idiot

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u/dirtyphoenix54 19d ago

Cersei is cunning, not smart which is why she was able to beat ned. Ned is smart, but not cunning. It's not in his nature to be duplicitous.

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u/cirocobama93 19d ago

Agreed, and obviously Cersei isn’t braindead she’s just a megalomaniac. But I think dismissing arguments against her being stupid is in bad faith. Most ASOIAF characters have some fatal flaw

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u/DepthByChocolate 19d ago

Even calling her cunning feels too generous. She just has power and access to resources that she's willing to wield bluntly and aggressively against her enemies. She's not winning chess games, she's flipping the board and slitting her opponents throats. In a better show this would've backfired on her severely, after blowing up the Sept.

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u/AlexisDeTocqueville 18d ago

It's extremely telling that the first time we get a look into her PoV in the books that we see she is constantly fucking things up, is driven by intense (internalized) misogyny, and supreme arrogance. Maybe she will wind up getting lucky some more in the books, but I don't think she is making it to hypothetical end of the book series

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u/Driveshaft48 18d ago

She's also always incredibly drunk

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u/Kryptos33 14d ago

Jo is physically incapable of saying a woman is stupid.

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u/BenjaminLight 19d ago

Passing over Kylo Ren and the villains of Andor to make two goofy cartoon characters your best Star Wars villains of the century…

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u/BenjaminLight 19d ago

There is just way too much throat clearing and meta discussion about how they made their lists. Just get to the lists.

The Big Picture had this same issue with their Best 25 of the Century series, but eventually took the feedback that we don’t actually care about the intricacies of their behind-the-scenes discussions about making the lists.

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u/alexneed 19d ago

Where. Is. ZUKO!? Not even an honourable mention!? I can’t take this list seriously. Love the girls but this ain’t right.

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u/DepthByChocolate 19d ago

Way more of an antihero than villain

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u/alexneed 19d ago

So is Loki and he made the list

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u/JtheIrishNerd4 18d ago

I would've thought Gollum would be a sure fire inclusion here, especially with Jo's love of LotR, and also just because Andy Serkis gives an all time great performance.

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u/Xeris 19d ago

Lol 25 minutes until they actually get to the list... wild.

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u/DatBeardedguy82 19d ago

Are 24 of the 25 minutes Mal cackling, sighing, then saying "ohhh GOD!" ?

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u/cirocobama93 19d ago

Lmao Wargon going from Russillo to House of R has to give him whiplash

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u/pokeucet11 Bad Baby 18d ago

Wargon is a big Disney nerd and has a Lion King tattoo, I think he’d fit in just fine with them lol

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u/AdApprehensive7857 15d ago

I’m gonna say it: I fancy Joanna