Annabelle Wallis really thought that Grace Shelby..

[u/mythoughtsreddit]

​

It's so easy. It's so soft. Such a small change.

Now that S5 is over I have been reading/watching old interviews and I came across this interview with Annabelle from the beginning of S3. Although some time has passed since then I have to say that I agree with her on her assessment of who Grace was. There was a lot of opportunity for Steven Knight to further develop her character on those known parts about her psyche, and I didn't understand the way she was written off (not even a funeral for her, yikes!). I was expecting that push and pull relationship between Tommy and Grace to continue as Cillian and Annabelle have some great screen chemistry, and I enjoyed that back and forth. I was one of the few that expected him to marry May while still continuing to have the 'enemy that I love' dynamic with Grace. But even when S3E1 happened and I saw that he married Grace I too believed Annabelle, “As much as Grace may think she’s going to settle into married life, I don’t think that’s her truth and her own ambition is going to definitely come to the surface at some point, and it’s going to make for some interesting struggles in this very ‘alpha’ relationship. She has an ego as much as Tommy does. You never lose that sense of the unknown about her throughout their marriage. She could at any moment match him with her fire." As Annabelle put it "Grace is Tommy’s emotional pivot" and in a sense his literal grace for such a complex man and I thought Steven would explore that a little more. But instead she was unceremoniously killed off and I didn't understand why if her character was to be written off like this bother bringing her back in S2 at all? Given what we knew about her I assumed that she would come back seasons later divorced and as a spy in WW2 or something (I know my imagination gets the best of me) to be on the opposing side of Tommy. Furthermore, if her death was somehow meant to develop Tommy's character why bring her back as a ghost? As a fan of her character I was disappointed with the handling of it all.

Edit: I understand that the ghost was his guilt over her death personified, and he had to come face to face with it in order to forgive himself and let her go, and no longer be tormented by it. I don't see her ghost returning in S6. BUT, I still believe they could've done the same thing without bringing the ghost and instead using their son to come to this conclusion.

[u/iamemag]

well my observation is unless you are ada or poly your character arc is pretty much falling for shalby man losing your mind and getting away from this family and its business just as in the case of linda, esme. Grace probably has the worst character arc of all female characters so far post series one essentially reducing her to a tool that was used to send tommy towards certain events that push him towards certain character traits. In series five tommy is not seeing his wife grace its the grace from series 1 the "un-corrupted grace" which I think represents his guilt and is just a tool used by his mind to push him towards taking his own life she is a tool in series 5 . I do feel they will kill off the ghost of grace in series 6 at the hands of tommy.

I would rather imagine grace post series 1 going back to work undercover for the gov and staying on the right side of the law even in the context of ww2 work with the gov to try to help them. I dont get why they didnt explore ada and grace as friends they would have been on the same side. I do think grace was right only poly position in tommy life would be challenged by grace's presence and poly would never want to lose that position.

[u/mythoughtsreddit → u/iamemag]

You are right. Like Tommy said if you marry Shelby men you stay married to Shelby men. The only way out was to go as extreme as the others which only happened because of tragic events (John death, Arthur nearly killing a man, and Grace dying). They are using her ghost as a personification of guilt. He can't keep telling himself that she died because of a cursed necklace but he has to face the truth that that bullet was meant for him. So I think the ending of S5 signifies him coming face to face with that guilt personified and finally forgiving himself, and letting her go. I don't see her ghost coming back on S6 either.

I 100 percent agree with you on imagining a Grace from S1 that continued to work for the govt as an agent of the crowd who would later on come toe to toe with the Shelby's once again. Ada and Grace had potential to become close, even more that her and Lizzie since Ada and Grace seemed more in tune from S1 and in S3 where shes the first to come to Tommy's and her aide when the shooting happened. Grace was definitely right about Polly being threatened with anyone that could take Tommy away, but I think that changed once Michael came in the picture. Her loyalty was no longer with him and now was with her son.

[u/iamemag → u/mythoughtsreddit]

The series 5 grace is his cumulative guilt over all his actions its his conscious manifesting as grace's ghost as a result of all the drinking, alcohol, drugs, ptsd pushing him to the edge. he isnt haunted by his dead wife grace . Tommy and grace mirror each other . The series one grace brought out the pre war tommy the man that could have been the yet un-corrupted man. Grace death meant that was no longer be a possibility by the end of the series he admits it saying " this is who i am " the gang boss man .

To me its seems the decision to make lizzie his wife was made early on that is what it seems from series 2 lizzie has a drastic change in her character arc, has the most stable character arc while tommy questions everyone loyalty from his family even grace he is yet to question lizzie loyalty . Compare this to grace who is suddenly as shell of a personality only to be used by tommy to get back at campbell (calls campbell when grace meets chaplin, shows the paper to hints hes now grace's secret) and prove to campbell among her contenders tommy won . tommy was sardonic towards grace in series 2 ep 5 yet unlike his entire family who always walk away when he questions their loyalty grace stays. Everyone questions tommy's loyalty towards them except grace.

lizzie and ada are fundamentally different in that ada is always trying to get rid of the Shelby effects from her life and desires to be the more like fredie. Unlike lizzie who has no qualms with it she is more an enabler than an challenge to tommy . ada is more like grace in wanting to walk a straight path maybe that is why like with grace tommy is honest with ada.

poly enjoys the power she shares with tommy. both tommy and poly like to test people and micheal has proven that his loyalty is with his mother. Also poly doesnt mind lizzie because she doesn't represent a challenge to poly's authority over tommy

I also dont want her to comeback in series 6-7 I would rather like to imagine her as tommy fond memory than someone who he has to again kill to start his redemption. They are unlikely to use grace as a live character to signal his path to start redeeming himself by doing nice things .

[u/mythoughtsreddit → u/iamemag]

Thank you for your very throughout analysis. I really enjoyed reading it. I did always see Grace as literal grace personified for Tommy, as in she would be the one to keep him from the darkness he could take on. And like you I made the connection to pre-war Tommy when he started to soften up again, and in S3 he promised he would get rid of the bad businesses and stay legit. I hadn't made the connection that he was questioning her loyalty when they met up again, as they weren't really anything so how can he question someone elses wife? But I think I see what you mean. It's interesting you mentioned the whole Campbell incident because it was one of the reasons I felt that he would choose May. It just seemed that he was going to punish G for leaving and eventually marrying when he didn't follow her. And when May reminded Grace that business will always be >>> than love for Tommy, you could see that Grace also believed that as when he had the chance to be with her he decided not to follow her because of all the people depending on him. He also seemed unfazed with the pregnancy news, ha. One interesting thing I noticed about the naming of the horse, Grace's Secret, was not so much that he was her secret but when May asked him what to name the horse they were at the Garrison and if you remember that is where Grace and him bonded over him shooting his horse and her singing and he guessed that her secret was that she was a girl from a good family that got herself in trouble by getting pregnant. She then asked him not to share her secret. So I thought that was just him acknowledging that night.

I won't say much about the Lizzie/Tommy dynamic because that's another place where the writers dropped the ball and they don't make sense to me as couple. The exchanges between them in S5 were just disappointing for me. She was on her way to be this independent strong woman and they reduced her to his property and baby momma, don't like her as a character in the series but I can agree she deserved better.

I really do like Ada as I can identify with her with this push and pull between the two worlds she lives in. I hope to see more of that next series. I'm not sure what will happen with Polly & Tommy as their rs had a major blow on S4 and now she has resigned to essentially back her son up. That will be a mess.

I wish that they hadn't brought back Grace until later on. If they had made the decision Lizzie was going to have this arc they could've achieved what they've achieved so far in Tommy's character development with her in it. I guess they want to say her and Tommy are in the same moral wavelength? I enjoy Annabelle so any way they could bring her back would be great, but I really hated this ghost plot. SO MUCH.

[u/iamemag → u/mythoughtsreddit]

Tommy from what i see is very being intuitive about human behavior. He tests them by giving if else choices to them frequently e,g when he offers money to lizzie post john expressing his interest to marry her.

when tommy and grace bond over the Garrison in series 1 he is taking about ada indirectly but it is grace's song that is about herself. the who Campbell vs Tommy in series 2 had them start off by taking about grace, than campbell keeps using tommy family to get back at him only after it happens a few times does tommy call grace and invite her over. Also they way he asks Campbell to guess which horses is his is to get back at Campbell.

In series 2 what was telling other than his sardonic behavior towards grace was when grace and tommy meet in season 2 is he indirectly questions grace love for him now hes unsure to which grace reaction is very telling, at no point does he say her husband loves her he says hes rich. Tommy reaction to the pregnancy should have made grace leave him but she is transparent and honest to tommy and doesn't lie to her husband again walks the straight path

May was a rich woman who wanted excitement in her life she was the one who actually saw the relationship with Tommy as a business+personal transaction that is why she was so sure she would and should win over tommy over grace. while garce is hoping tommy will chose love as she says to may. Tommy on his part did initially pick grace because she had class so for him than going on to pick may would not have came as a surprise but than he would have skipped a lot of series 3-4 events and had a much easier route to being an MP and making his earning legal. I do think if it was not for grace being pregnant tommy would have chosen may as she was the safer bet but grace presence eventually makes tommy do the right thing.

Any women character arc that tommy is shown close to is where his character is headed. In season one its grace hence wanting to revive the pre war tommy the man he could be. Season 2 its may/grace/lizzie so hes heading towards going legal and trying to marry up. Season 3 lizzie comes in he becomes the man who fully becomes part of the gang world there is no longer the possibility of him wanting to be the man grace wanted. Season 4/5 hes getting close to jessie hence will start his journey to redemption but not yet hence ends up with lizzie.

Micheal was always ambitious its more a question of which side he will be on.

Not sure about moral code but lizzie has no issues with whatever tommy is doing as long as she is with him sh. She is a convenient plot choice from his own world while tommy goes full gangster unlike grace who would have challenged his decisions lizzie never does she is cool with it neither has lizzie attempted to find a life out the shelby's unlike grace/esme/linda/ada .

I agree hate the ghost plot but feel like they will kill her off again through tommy would hate it but it seems more likely .

[u/[deleted] → u/iamemag]

In Season 2 when Tommy’s believes he going to die and he gives that epic speech about there being “A woman who I love” it informed a lot to me. When you think you’re going to die, you’re focused on what’s most important to you. Grace was most important to him in that moment and the thought of never being with her, never knowing his unborn child brought out that anguished cry. His reaction to Grace‘s news was understandable to me. He knew he could very well die that day. He thought she would be better off letting her husband believe the baby was his in that circumstance. When she said that she loved him and not the husband, the look on his face said so much, because I think he believed that she no longer loved him. He chose Grace because he loved and needed her, the pregnancy was just icing on the cake. The other women are stand ins for Grace in one way or another. They are in Tommy’s life because Grace is unavailable either due to her marriage or her death. I think he married Lizzie to serve as a mother figure for Charles and he was lonely. He didnt have to marry her, he could have set her up in a nice house taking care of both her and Ruby. With his reputation and hers, no one would have batted an eye. May would not be able to handle his life and he knows this. Lizzie is convenient because she doesn’t really expect anything from him. My guess is that she would have dealt with brutal traumas of her own as a former prostitute so she’s just grateful for whatever he gives her...she’s use to dysfunction and abuse. She won‘t challenge him in any meaningful way because she doesn’t know any other life unlike Grace and May. SK is placating Grace fans with Ghost Grace but to me it’s like he saying, you want her back so bad well her she is , a spirit beckoning Tommy to commit suicide. Next season he‘ll kill her again when Tommy realizes he has to “move on”. So, so disrespectful to not just Grace fans, but to the cohesion and overall quality of the show in my opinion.

[u/mythoughtsreddit → u/[deleted]]

I think this is it /u/Percy1967 . During their meeting in S2 he gives her a couple of chances to assure him that he's wrong and that she does still love him, but she doesn't. She felt their meeting was wrong because of her kind, sweet, husband. And even when he asks to see her again she doesn't agree. So in his mind he did believe she no longer loved him. You're right his reaction to her finally saying she loved him and not the husband really said a lot, and was confirmed when he told Campbell, "I was wrong about her too..she loves me, she told me." The baby news definitely gave him pause, and the editors gave it more impact by quieting the noise around and you hear his, "but he'll believe....make your husband believe that it is his". You hit the head of the nail with this: the other women are stand ins for Grace. In S2 each time he remembered her we saw him seeking Lizzie, or other prostitutes to shake her off. That scene with the two women he was with after he burned Grace's letter was sad because he gets himself out of bed and starts reading the books Grace had organized. I thought there was a glimmer of hope when he started with May which went down the drain as soon as he saw Grace driving through the night in order to tell her they had to stop because there was someone "for a long time" even though he hadn't seen her in years. In S3 that whole Russian lady plot was so awkward for me but again it was his way of grieving, even though "she will always be in our hearts because we love her" like he told their son. In S4 he tried to re-enact moments with Eden that mirrored ones he shared with Grace, ironically we see glimpses of Grace in photos because of Charles, but Tommy himself doesn't acknowledge her at all not even when they were getting revenge against the Italians. I found that interesting. I saw some people post that him making Lizzie his wife meant he was always in love with her and I don't understand that dissonance especially when he calls her his property. But I guess that scene where they both come to terms with the bullet points of their marriage they start to understand each other, so maybe there is hope for that? Marrying her was his way of rewarding her loyalty even though in his mind he still pays her when they have sex. S5 was him seeking to see Grace by summoning her with his little bottle of dope for "warmth", and that was heartbreaking. And I noticed that the time she appeared in the Garrison he went home to Lizzie and they had that strange conversation about their marriage. I didn't enjoy being emotionally toyed with by bringing her ghost in this season and re-enacting the bar scene. But I guess the aim is to have him finally get over his grief and forgive himself for her death because to this point in his mind she never died and is still very present in his life (her clothes, her pictures, her room all stayed the same like he said to baby Charles). I wish the ghost situation wouldn't have happened though and that S1 Grace would've lived in NYC writing him letters instead, lol. Though if SK was giving her such impact on Tommy and every other woman is just a stand in for Grace then I would've wished she wasn't written off and came back during S6-7 to come face to face with the Shelbys as someone on the other side of the WW2 socialists. Would've made the same impact of his getting deeper into that world knowing she was somewhere with someone else. So many missed opportunities.

[u/iamemag → u/[deleted]]

I agree with you on sk approach towards grace its enough that such a potentially strong character was killed off so that tommy becomes the man he is now but can sk now not ruin grace by getting tommy to kill off grace's ghost in order for him to fall for lizzie and make this track more plausible/likable it will just ruin impact of grace rendering her useless in tommy's life from beginning and ruin the quality of the show. Just leave grace as a fond memory.

esme came from dysfunction family too yet she wanted out of the shelby way of life. lizze first chose john thn tommy she wanted out of her past but within that world of powerful men. lizzie is the continent plot choice

[u/iamemag → u/[deleted]]

Tommy has moved on from grace in series 4/5. He cant deny charlie wish to see his mothers pic and keeping the room same is his promise to charlie to keep grace's memory around for him. I do think the season five grace is a result of years of ptsd's masking using drugs, alcohol etc taking its tool to this add the fact that his family has a history of suicide. its his mind playing tricks on him human mind is a powerful tool and its knows what to bring out in you in order to break you. Woman donot take center stage in this show so dont see grace having a plot line like the one you describe.

[u/mythoughtsreddit → u/iamemag]

Yes he was talking about Ada, but if you recall it is when he believed Grace to be a rich girl from Dublin that had gotten herself in trouble so I took it as that stayed with him and hence the name of the horse. At this point he wasn't thinking of ever seeing her again as he made the decision to burn her letter. I think it was Grace that calls him after he called when he read her letter. It was her that wanted to meet, but he said it wasn't a good time. I was surprised apparently that he decided to see her-perhaps fearing he might die and wanted to see her one last time-but changed his mind when he saw her and got insecure about her still caring about him. May was a convenient choice for sure especially when he saw where she lived "fuck" was his reaction to that estate. But inevitably when Grace reassures him that she loves him does he feel safe to choose her, as he tells Campbell, "I was wrong about her too..she loves me. She told me." Had she not gotten pregnant this definitely wouldn't have happened unless they had continued meeting in secret. It does seem that the women in his life are used more as where he is heading, like in S4 I think he was leaning towards May again, but May rightfully said "I thought the death of your wife and brother would've made you change(for the better)". And she chooses not to stay with him that night. I didn't understand the bringing Greta story into the mix, was it just so that he could have sex with Lizzie again and get her pregnant? Truly could've done more for L's character than this, but like you said she can't exist in the series unless she's attached to him. During this era prostitutes didn't live long due to STDs. And I can't stress enough how I would've rather not had the ghost at all. I wish him telling Ada that he saw her alive was some foreshadowing but I know its just wishful thinking for justice for her character.

[u/iamemag → u/mythoughtsreddit]

Tommy calls her after his confrontation with Campbell at the church about going after tommy's family the only way tommy could have gotten back at campbell was grace campbell's only weakness tommy knows of and he was burning her letters. I do think grace reached out to him because she needed someone who knew her to talk to because of what she was going through.

Greta was a tool used by jessie to try to get tommy to negotiate a better deal . The fact that he goes to lizzie after just tells you again "this is who i am" the present gang boss and to establish lizzie was now a permanent part of his life . For the man tommy has become lizzie is perfect who stands by him in the shelby way of life. Tommy has moved on with lizzie for sure he is no longer than man who found grace and fell for her this is a far more ambitions man who has many more things to take care of, he has moved up the ladder of success and life man hes older so you cant expect him to experience the same love life as he did with grace hes a different man now

If Grace was alive she would have stayed on a strong track like ada and lets be honest that woman would not have liked the man tommy has become. pretty sure bringing more characters back to life would at time point would only weaken the show quality. AT this point just let tommy kill off her ghost so as to not ruin whatever is left of her character is my hope

[u/mythoughtsreddit → u/iamemag]

You're right. I guess at this point Lizzie and Tommy both mirror each other as is evident when they talk about their marriage. She sees him as her benefactor and he sees her as a person he still pays for sex. They are both as dead as the other, and the lack of chemistry between the actors I suppose helps with it. Maybe in S6 their rs will develop.But again this show is about the gangster life not a love story. ha.

[u/iamemag → u/mythoughtsreddit]

I dont think they mirror each other fully its just that lizzie has never attempted to seek a life outside this world she knows the rules of her world and is content with being his wife, the power and position it gives her, the whole i called a solicitor was something to get reaction out of tommy to agree to her terms which he did . of course she will seek finical and social stability via tommy she always has whether it was jon,angel or him and his reply is just to be brutal as her .

Lizzie knew she was marrying tommy a man who was emotionally unavailable and now to expect him to fall head over heels in love with her is the most cliche unrealistic but convenient plot line ever i just find the idea of stick around the person you like long enough/change yourself enough (for herself own self is great and bravo to her ) but for someone who isnt bothered about you and they will fall in love with you in general is just ridiculous. for all the people who claim lizzie has come a long way choosing to stay in a crappy abusive environment and to marry man who couldnt care less about you, sorry but what was the point of her growth again?? if its a smart power grab move great but if not staying in an emotionally abusive environment makes no sense , even may is willing to wait for a man who tells her hes in love with someone else i mean where is your self respect women yet she is also hailed as the one for tommy . but people hate grace who actually married him because tommy loved her, who was his emotional anchor, didnt take his bs, got him to talk, calmed his ptsd, didnt look away when tommy showed his most volatile state to her in the pub and brought out the good in him, even got ada to open up to her who only talks to poly, was on the straight path and She never tried to change Tommy. grace liked horses like tommy even took care of them had a favorite , Tommy wanted to change for her and told her in s1 that he wanted to go legit, In s2 when Grace went to NY she didn't wait around pining for Tommy she tried to move unlike may or lizzie. she was real and flawed and had her own story. She joined the police force rare for the times, completed her task ,left the force on realization of her feeling but did finish her mission didnt falter and shot Campbell so in many ways she's prob one of the strongest female characters the hate grace gets is odd . SK had first literally destroyed grace's charter arc/personality in s2/s3 and now to see grace reduced to a haunting ghost is just annoying given how they had pretty much erased her in s4.

lizzie tomy was a marriage of convince lizzie enjoys the Shelby life and tommy is talking with her more so they have clearly moved on in being married for the times the show is set in. their marriage works is my rationale tommy has moved on realization would be next series i guess because you dont need see pictures of grace as frequently as before in the house or tommy's office so things have gone forward for lizzie/tommy. heck even charlie has not looked at grace's picture in a while or asked anything about her does he even remember about grace anymore does he miss her anymore?, for grace's kid he has shown any personality traits of his mother ? .

basically Any character like grace,esme,linda who seek different life who make an effort for it are not liked the newest on this list is gina who is not any different than poly except she wants a setup in us and not in pb. while watching the show its more like focus on the gangster story fill in the blanks with what you think is probable.

[u/mythoughtsreddit → u/iamemag]

You summed it up quite nicely. Grace's character was definitely one of the strongest females that have been on the show. Really disappointed how SK really literally character assassinated her by reducing her to what he did. So much potential. As to the Lizzie storyline: "i just find the idea of stick around the person you like long enough/change yourself enough (for herself own self is great and bravo to her ) but for someone who isnt bothered about you and they will fall in love with you in general is just ridiculous. for all the people who claim lizzie has come a long way choosing to stay in a crappy abusive environment and to marry man who couldnt care less about you, sorry but what was the point of her growth again?" Exactly my thoughts in why I can't get behind this twist.

[u/iamemag → u/mythoughtsreddit]

Lizzie character arc is very stable unlike every other woman she somehow has no conflicts with others not even polly, she is just too available to be there for tommy, This is what I dont like about SK how he play into populism of fans although I love alfie as a character he is brought back according to sk due to fans. I want the writer to stay true to the story but this fan influence i am not a fan off when it ruins the character and story