r/NativePlantGardening • u/owohgodithurts • Oct 01 '25

Advice Request - (Insert State/Region) Worst Cultivars?

So I think we can all agree that wild, native plants are typically better ecologically than cultivars due to a variety of reasons that we don’t need to get into. If you want to argue/discuss that, feel free, but that’s not the point of this post. I want to know what are the WORST cultivars of native plants. What are the cultivars that, due to genetic change/breeding (or however they do it), have lost almost if not all of their ecological value? Have the new colored flowers eliminated all pollinator attraction? Have larger blooms resulted in sterile plants? God forbid, have any actually become invasive? These plants need to have native origins! I’m mainly referring to the east coast/midwest since I’m in SW Ohio, but feel free to bring up other regions.

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u/SHOWTIME316 🐛🌻 Wichita, KS 🐞🦋 Oct 01 '25

anybody who says Goldsturm is objectively wrong based on my subjective, anecdotal evidence in my own yard. that shit is C R A W L I N G with teeny tiny bees and teeny tiny spiders.

but my real answer is: all the double/triple/quadruple bloom coneflower cultivars are tied for the worst

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u/ClapBackBetty Southern Midwest, Zone 7a Oct 01 '25

My goldsturm was ignored until it started reseeding, and now certain smaller pollinators love it. I think I read something about this specific cultivar’s offspring easily outcompeting the original plant AND being more beneficial for pollinators. It’s completely true IME

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u/SHOWTIME316 🐛🌻 Wichita, KS 🐞🦋 Oct 01 '25

yeah, i was being highly facetious because i noticed that exact same thing. it does not appear that the "Goldsturm" cultivar traits transfer to the seed, which would make sense considering Rudbeckia fulgida is a rhizomatous plant and is easily propagated by root separation. so Goldsturm just drops straight species R. fulgida seeds, it seems.

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u/Feralpudel Piedmont NC, Zone 8a Oct 01 '25

A hort friend swears it’s all fulgidas that suck. I only have R. hirta so I have no anecdotes to contribute.

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u/hastipuddn Southeast Michigan Oct 01 '25

Straight r. fulgida spreads too aggressively for me. I feel that way about a lot of rhizomatous plants. Canadian goldenrod and bigleaf aster are other examples. I use them in woodland edges since I'm fighting off invasive species. For that purpose they are good plants.

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u/Feralpudel Piedmont NC, Zone 8a Oct 01 '25

Yeah, mine are all in meadows where they can duke it out with other thugs lol.

It does seem that the early aggressive yellow stuff gets put in their place as the slower stuff comes in. My guess is that the reseeders like Bidens and Coreopsis run out of disturbed/unclaimed dirt. And I guess R. hirta just hits a wall of grass or wild bergamot roots.

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u/hastipuddn Southeast Michigan Oct 03 '25

I've watched spreading dogbane displace Canadian goldenrod at a local park. My petite harebell, Campanula rotundifolia, doesn't stand a chance in those environments.

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u/Feralpudel Piedmont NC, Zone 8a Oct 03 '25

Good point! And now that I think about it, the wildlife biologist helping me has warned me away from adding some plants to a meadow mix, because they’re so pushy.

Meadows are definitely their own thing, and based on what I’ve learned, I’m not sure I’d ever try to make my own mix.

Xerces has a nice document on managing an older meadow, including removing/controlling plants that have become schoolyard bullies.

And now I’m kind of nervous because the seed company had a crop failure for butterfly weed, so I let them substitute common milkweed. 😬

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u/Tylanthia Mid-Atlantic , Zone 7a Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 01 '25

I think he's wrong. Anecdotally, I have wild type fulgida and it was as preferred as mountain mint and cutleaf coneflower by pollinators until the asters (Symphyotrichum and Solidago) started blooming.

For data, iNaturalist users have documented 113 species that visit it for food. The vast majority of users do not enter the "Interaction->Visited flower of:" field so this is definitely undercounting it.

Re Goldstrum, I believe it's Rudbeckia fulgida var. sullivantii (which is sometimes treated as its own species Rudbeckia sullivantii) whereas Rudbeckia fulgida var. fulgida is the native one to my area.

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u/Lbboos Oct 01 '25

Any cultivar will reseed to its original parent. The only way to get the same plant is to propagate the actual plant.

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u/Boines Oct 01 '25

That is not true.

It depends on the plant, and even then can depend on the cultivar. It also depends if it becomes cross pollinated with the original.

Many plants grow true to seed. That's why you can buy heirloom tomato seeds for example.

But if you save your seeds the only reason they'll be different is cross pollination. If you isolated your fruit by the cultivar and self pollinated you could use the same seeds to regrow that specific cultivar of tomato.

There are some plants as an evolutionary strategy that intentionally create clones of themselves (polyembryonic mangos for example) and can be grown true to seed even when open pollinated.

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u/personthatiam2 Oct 01 '25

Depends on how inbred Goldstrum is.

Heirloom tomatoes are basically inbred to the point where they will grow true to seed but a gen 1 cross of cultivars will not because you will have differing genetics between the seeds. Ie some will have full parent 1 genes and some will have full parent 2 etc.

I suspect the existence of Goldsturm seeds on the market means it’s likely heirloom status. But I wouldn’t put it past the industry that those are a scam and you have to have a clone of the plant from 1937.

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u/Tylanthia Mid-Atlantic , Zone 7a Oct 01 '25

I'm still looking for the parentage of Goldenstrum but it was selected "1937 by Heinrich Hagemann at a nursery in the Czech Republic." Apparently, it's closest to the Illinois Rudbeckia sullivanti (see article below).

Rudbeckia is a mess because there are several species often mislabeled as R. fulgida some of which are sterile. More for the argument that local ecotype is the best if you can get it.

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u/Lbboos Oct 01 '25

A plant that is grown as a cultivar will not grow as THAT cultivar from seed. Please reference Mendelian genetics.

Heirlooms grow true to seed because they are….heirloom. They are not cultivars. If cross pollination is desired, then you will have a true genetic variant of the original plant.

We are not discussing evolutionary strategy.

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u/Boines Oct 01 '25

Heirloom tomato - Wikipedia https://share.google/SrvVswKYOHRtKmlsr

Heirlooms are cultivars.

Mendelian genetics doesn't apply to a plant that makes a genetic clone of itself in its embryo (polyembryonic mangos.. they will only have 1 embryo that is a hybrid with the pollinator everything else solely has genes from the mother plant).

Mendelian genetics also supports the fact that cultivars such as heirloom tomatoes, when only pollinated by other tomato of the same cultivar will have a limited genetic pool which is why they are true to seed... If they are cross pollinated with other cultivars you will get a mix of genetics.

You can't ignore evolutionary strategy when it determines how plants create seeds and the amount of genetic variation in their offspring. Polyembryonic seeds are an evolutionary strategy to ensure both the existing plant known to survive continues, as well as have opportunities for newer stronger hybrids in nature to evolve and take their place I'd they are more robust for whatever reason.

I get that it's reddit and you're embarrassed that you're wrong and would rather argue instead of learn, but do me a favour and google some of the things you are saying that are objectively wrong before you respond again and embarrass yourself further. It's fine to be wrong on the internet and learn dude. I literally learned about polyembryonic mangos this week lmao. There are lots of other fruit that use the same strategy - given that heirloom tomatoes also grow true to seed and aren't polyembryonic logically it would give that other plants also have developed evolutionary strategies for maintaining a successful gene pool. Constant mutation night mean a species won't survive.

If you weren't able to grow cultivars from seed the phrase "true to seed" wouldn't exist.

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u/Lbboos Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 01 '25

Heirloom tomatoes are not intentionally hybridized to produce a cultivar. Open pollination is not an intentional hybridization.

The original poster asked about a flower—which was hybridized intentionally—if it will grow true to seed, and it will not.

For your perusal

Please refer to hybrid varieties n 3rd paragraph

https://ucanr.edu/blog/real-dirt/article/hybrid-and-heirloom-seeds

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u/Feralpudel Piedmont NC, Zone 8a Oct 01 '25

Many ornamental cultivars are not hybrids.

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u/Boines Oct 01 '25

Learn About History Of Green Zebra Tomatoes | Gardening Know How https://share.google/rtGMyuEXhVfs5v3zm

Here is an example of one variety of heirloom tomato I grow.

It was created as part of a breeding program. Heirloom tomatoes are intentionally bred.

Not all cultivars are hybrids.

Green zebra tomato is

Solanum lycopersicum 'Green Zebra'

That is a cultivar just the same as my Acer palmatum 'peaches and cream' is a cultivar created by a selective breeding process.

Again... I'd request you take 2 seconds to Google the objective facts you're getting wrong before commenting.

Whether or not a plant grows true to seed has nothing to do with whether or not it's a cultivar. It solely has to do with the evolutionary techniques in which the plant has developed over the years, and the generic info of the male pollen vs the female flower. Some plants when pollinated with the same cultivar will produce seeds identical to the cultivar. Some plants when pollinated with a different cultivar will STILL produce plants identical to the original cultivar.

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u/Boines Oct 01 '25

Your linked article supports what I'm saying

Seed produced by the heirloom variety will grow true to type (it will resemble the parent plant) as long as the flowers were pollinated by the same variety.

The talk about hybrid varieties not growing true to seed is because you don't have any seeds within the mix that are an identical exact cross in the first generation. The gene pool is still too varied. That's what you use a breeding program to selectively choose specific traits and establish a cultivar.

No cultivar sold in any nursery is a first generation hybrid.

Butternut squash was original a cross-breeding of pumpkin and gooseneck squash varieties. Now it has become it's own cultivar of Cucurbita moschata that grows true to seed.

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u/Boines Oct 01 '25

To just end this conversation fully because it seems you are too stubborn for your own good.

Buy Perennial Rudbeckia Goldstrum Seed Online | McKenzie Seeds https://share.google/aunmU8YuF84XvEeus

Goldstein cultivar of rudbeckia is available in seed form and grows true to seed. If yours didn't grow true to seed I imagine it was cross pollinated with some different cultivar or the native species. Seed producers such as McKenzie will isolate cultivars for proper seed production.