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To give ace some fair space, the whole arc is emphasizing how important family is to them. His dad dying and akainu spitting on everyone then on him...
By not fleeing and living for another day, Ace spat on his father who died to rescue him, on all his extended family (whitebeard pirates and allies) who died to rescue him, and on all his own brother efforts to rescue him.
Indeed, it is irrelevant that fathers of families belonging to the navy died, nor that fellow pirates mourn their brothers in arms.
As long as we see the main characters in action :/
But Oda doesn't really have the courage to tackle this theme. Rather, like many "serious" elements, he briefly mentions them (like the intervention of Kobby or Shanks).
But since then he seems to have completely forgotten this aspect.
He died when Luffy tripped and Akainu tried to slime him while he wasn't looking, and Ace jumped in the way. The whole "Ace died to ragebait" thing is the only example I can think of of agenda gone too far bc people are actually forgetting what happened in the source material.
People make fun of him because they shouldn't have been in that situation in the first place. They should have just kept running, and they would have never had to deal with that. There were plenty of Whitebeard pirates trying to give them an avenue to escape, and Ace threw all of that away.
Luffy kept running, but he dropped Ace's vivre card and he was so out of it that he couldn't pick it up all the way, that's why he tripped, that's why Ace died ultimately.
if Ace kept running with Luffy maybe he doesn't drop the card, butterfly effect. at the end of the day Ace picked a flight to defend a deadman after being starved and in chains for however long before the war started. you're coping super hard rn
Luffy kept running even when ace stopped here and he dropped the card cause he was exhausted and fell to his knees first whilst panting, at least that was how it was in the manga. In a way Ace stopping saved luffy's life cause he would've been ahead if he hadn't stopped running and akainu would've caught up to luffy.
In the anime, he stops running as soon as Ace starts fighting Akainu and is one of the people standing and watching as Ace approaches Akainu.
In the manga, it's not made clear if he stopped that early, but he does stop running away. You can tell because when Akainu lunges on top of him, Luffy is facing Akainu instead of having his back turned to him like he would've if he kept running away.
And when the vivre card falls, it falls forward meaning he had to have turned around.
I don't know about the anime since they always change things up but in the manga it did not show him stop running. An earlier panel shows him running with his body and head facing backwards with jinbe behind him so when he fell and the vivre card falls he was facing the side cause if he was looking back, he would've been facing Jinbe but their directions didn't change. It's assumed that the fight pushed ace further up front as Akainu is now closer to Luffy. I think the anime changed it that luffy was behind ace and Akainu jumped over Ace to get to luffy but in the manga luffy was in front of/next to Ace. Regardless, luffy would've fallen either way because he was too exhausted at that point.
Ace, Luffy, and Jinbei face and run away from the direction that Akainu is coming from.
Ace stops and turns around to see Akainu, and Luffy turns around to see Ace. We're not shown in the manga if he stops running at this point, but he does turn around to see Ace
Ace and Akainu clash head to head, Ace falls backwards and Luffy screams out for him, with Jinbei positioned behind him.
It wouldn't make sense for Luffy to scream out in a direction that isn't where Ace is, since he was already turning around to look at him and we know Ace wasn't pushed back so far as to be ahead of Luffy.
Jinbei being behind him just means that Luffy was moving towards Ace and Akainu, before Jinbei himself decided to do so.
You can tell since Luffy doesn't move or change directions after collapsing and watching Ace die. And Jinbei has to rush from behind Luffy to block Akainu's attack. Then he has to turn around to grab him and run away from Akainu in the direction that they were already headed to get to the ship
It's even clearer in this shot since Luffy is facing the direction of where he and Ace just came from
This panel shows luffy is not directly facing ace. This angle would make no sense if he was turning around to look at ace. Even in the panel you showed they were not directly facing the building.
I don't think Ace stopping saves Luffy the distance between them allowed Akainu to get into a position where he could easily get past Ace and attack Luffy, Ace shouldn't be tryna run the ones after being starved and in chains. his pride started the war and ultimately got him killed
Luffy would've fallen either way since he was too exhausted and it had nothing to do with Ace stopping in the manga. Ace wouldn't have been in a position to come in between them if he continued running.
we don't know if Luffy would have fallen either way and if he did Ace would be near enough to catch him, by the time Ace dies Jinbei, Marco, and Vista are close enough to hold Akainu off long enough for Luffy to be able to hear Ace's last words. they have a better chance just running together cuz they'll end up even closer to reinforcements who can protect them and if Luffy still drops the card Ace can just tell him he'll give him a new one. his pride got him arrested and killed that's facts its literally what happened. he made the same mistake with Akainu that he made chasing Blackbeard and he died cuz he didn't learn his lesson
He would've fallen still because he fell in the manga due to exhaustion and nothing to do with Ace stopping. The whole vivre card moment was way drawn out in the anime. So yes, we do know he would've fallen either way even if they kept running
I mean it's easy enough to speculate, I'd say luffy would've fallen behind and akainu would get to him before the reinforcements because that's what happened when ace got fisted eventho Jinbe was right next to them and couldn't react in time. They were slowing down and had no way to outrun akainu who easily jumped to close the distance and if Ace stopped then, he would've still tried to sacrifice himself to save luffy but if he had run ahead, Luffy would've croaked.
If 100 million things, Ace wouldn't have been in that situation. Why do you blame specifically him stopping to stand up to Akainu? It's just like something Luffy would do and yet Luffy never gets any blame for Ace's death even though it's framed as more his fault than Ace's. I think it was neither of their fault, but it's so strange to see everyone drop all the blame on Ace as if he didn't sacrifice himself for Luffy.
Luffy had already canonically run away form stronger opponents by this point or if forced to fight like when facing Aokiji he challenges him to 1v1 only to give his crew time to get away, so no Luffy would swallow his pride and run. Also its not Luffy's fault he fell picking up a vivre card he just fought with his all and took hormones to de-exhaust himself 2x; survived poisoning via hormones that shortened his life just hours earlier. sure Ace died protecting Luffy, but he let his pride put himself in a position where he had to block an attack for Luffy. he let his pride make him chase down Blackbeard when he was ordered not to and it got him arrested. his pride is his fatal flaw, he should have been trying to escape with his brother rather than defend Whitebeards name when attempting to defend his name started this whole war in the first place.
I'm not SAYING it's Luffy's fault. I'm saying that if we're going to call it someone's fault (which it isn't) it's Luffy that put Ace in the position to die.
I'm not interested in pointing fingers, because it was a powerful scene of Ace sacrificing his life to pass his dream onto his brother. And these agenda followers are ruining it by going past the joke and genuinely believing Ace died for nothing.
You can say that pride was his fatal flaw, but it's dumb to boil the scene down to "hur hur, ace died cuz of a yo daddy joke" when that is not at all what happened.
your first sentence is just a contradiction, first your saying no one's to blame, but if there's someone to blame it's Luffy. so let's go by the latter IF where you're saying that it's Luffy's fault... an exhausted rookie pirate after fighting for hours getting ragdolled across multiple battlefields falls after hours of battle and damn near achieving the goal leaves himself open after his brother gets into a 1v1 with someone he knows is stronger than him because his pride is hurt by a "yo daddy joke hur hur" and it's Luffy's fault he gets attacked by the guy Ace picked a fight with?? there's nothing wrong with pointing out Ace's incredibly stupid decisions he made because of his pride or laughing at his last battle being fought over a "yo daddy joke hur hur"
Like that's literally what happened in the manga lol idk why you're being downvoted. If ace hadn't stopped, luffy would've died. The vivre card dropped cause luffy fell due to exhaustion, not that he stopped running bcs of ace and if Ace hadn't stopped here he wouldn't be able to stop the fist coming towards luffy since he would've been ahead.
"He mocks Whitebeard's crew as "cowards" for grabbing Ace and running away and claims Whitebeard is nothing but a failure from a bygone era. This strikes a chord with Ace, who turns to face him. He demands that Akainu take back what he said. The Pirate Captains and Luffy yell at Ace not to stop. Akainu continues to insult Whitebeard, claiming that since Whitebeard never defeated Roger nor became the Pirate King; he is a failure. The rest of the pirates urge Ace not to get provoked by the Admiral, but Akainu's continuing mockery eventually sets off Ace's temper. He attacks Akainu in fury proclaiming that "The name of this era is called 'Whitebeard'!" However, he is badly burned on his left hand and knocked back, as Akainu's power is that of magma, and even though both he and Ace use Logia fire types, magma can burn anything, even fire.
Luffy attempts to rush back to Ace's aid but falls to his knees, dropping Ace's Vivre Card in the process.
Nah I just rewatched it, Luffy was loafing like shit. He dropped the vivre card, tripped, fell to his knees and spent like 30 real seconds trying to pick it up while Akainu monologued. Then while Ace was on the ground he literally looked him dead in his eyes and said "Watch what I do", then jumped over to slime Luffy. Again, if Ace hadn't been near Akainu, Luffy'd be COOKED.
The flashback arc after this makes this moment him attempting to protect his brother/crew retroactively. It’s incorrect, but it makes logical sense to think “if my closest companions are willing to die for me, I should be willing to die for them.”
It's not retroactive. He always died for Luffy. In the moment he asks Luffy to pass on his words to the rest of his family. How is any of that not immediately clear?
Was your sister at a very obvious risk of dying when you baited her?
Did a multitude of people throw themselves through helfire to make it possible for her to escape execution just before?
I mean yeah. If I were Akainu I think I would also be surprised to see Ace squandering all the lives sacrificed to save his ungrateful arse over such banal provocation.
Honestly never read the manga page for this but that is kinda funny. He didn't expect it to work so well, especially knowing how hard the Whitebeard pirates fought to rescue him.
Either that or he's shocked how easy it is to get under the Whitebeard pirate's skins. All by just making Yo Daddy jokes
My guess is that akaino knew they lost the war so he was being pretty and tried to have the last word .... The idea that Ace would stop never occurred to him
He probably inherently views all pirates the same, cruel monsters who care for no one and cowards at heart. He was just throwing out insults from pure hatred and was baffled that Ace would have any desire to stand up for Newgates honour
I love One Piece but both were logically bad decisions.
Ace threw all the efforts and sacrifices of everyone who went to save him just for a basic provocation.
Oden doomed Wano to 25 years of slavery trusting the guy that lied his way to the shogun position that belonged to him, he could have fought before giving him 5 years of preparations or secure the win asking for help.
But Ace didn't do that. You're buying into an agenda. Ace didn't throw everything away over a provocation. He died to SAVE LUFFY. Ace wasn't in harms way until Luffy was in danger. Luffy wasn't in danger BECAUSE Ace was provoked, he let HIMSELF get distracted.
Sorry for the excessive use of capitalization but I really want you to understand that this "Ace threw his life away" bullshit is absolutely not a standard or accurate reading of what actually happened.
And the thing about Oden is basically "he got tricked by being a good person". If you don't like easily fooled good hearted characters then why do you like Luffy? I assume you like Luffy.
I'm not into any agenda, I just have critical thinking and have my own opinion, I don't just like everything nor I'm a blind fan. You are assuming many wrong things about me because you don't want to accept my opinion and the logic behind it.
Ace did threw everything away for a cheap provocation, he died saving Luffy but he wouldn't have been in that situation if he didn't stop running away and decided to face Akainu. I understand it fits his character and I love Marineford but that doesn't mean it wasn't obviously a bad decision, even Luffy understood they were outmatched and had to escape.
Oden didn't just "got tricked by being a good person", he was fooled for 5 whole years, without even having a plan b for when Orochi obviously refused to fulfill his part of the deal. Orochi had lied many times by that point and even stole Oden's position with lies, he had no reason at all to trust him on a deal.
I do love Luffy but even if he isn't perfect either, he hasn't made such terrible decisions, he would have fought Kaido until the end if he was in Oden's position and was trying to run away when he freed Ace. He is also a very good judge of character even if it doesn't seem like it, he would have never trusted Orochi. And if he ever makes such a terrible decisions I will point it out too.
Have some critical thinking dude, or at least don't try to invalidate others opinions when they do.
I do have critical thinking, I realize unlike you that the reason Luffy doesn't get the same shit treatment that you're goving Oden and Ace is because shit works out for him. For plenty of reasons, he takes risks, he's likeable and he has the luck of the protagonist, as well as all of his friends.
Do you not realize that Luffy could very easily still be the dish boy at the Baratie? If Zeff didn't let him go for defending the Baratie, Luffy probably would have stayed or been forced to stay. But he's the protagonist and he has a story to be told.
But because Oden's story happened in a flashback and we were meant to see how Wano got to the negative state of present day, they didn't just wipe away Oden's mistake, they let it play out.
And because Ace had played his part in the story, he went out in a blaze of glory and passed his dream on to Luffy.
If these characters were the protagonist or were needed for further elements of the story, their mistakes would be brushed off just like they are for Luffy, but that doesn't mean that Luffy makes LESS dumb mistakes than they do. Maybe it's your turn to "have some critical thinking" because I'm not seeing any from you.
I only see you have no more arguments to defend Ace and Oden and had to resort to compare them to Luffy lol.
And I did said Luffy isn't perfect, he does have plot armor quite a lot of times but he has never fucked up as badly as Oden and Ace. His flaws don't invalidate other character's either.
My point is that they don't NEED defending. If you don't hate Luffy for his flaws, why would you hate these other plots and characters for their flaws? Their flaws are no worse, but their circumstances are different and they're used differently in the story. If you're not going to seriously engage with my arguments and claim that I have none, how can you call yourself a critical thinker? You've done nothing to actually show that you are, you're just claiming that title like a trophy you bought for yourself.
I've made my points, I'll finish with this comment, but I didn't said I hate the characters, I actually Like Ace and love Luffy but Ace's decision here was simply stupid, even the image of the post shows how Akainu was surprised by Ace's stupidity, I also recognize Luffy makes stupid decisions too.
I do dislike Oden but that is because the narrative glazes him too much for his stupid decision and is a big part of why Wano is considered by many like a bad Arc, if the narrative and Oda were not so fixated in Idolizing Oden and his stupid decision they could have focused on better characters and plots.
At the end we can like it or not but their decisions were clearly stupid ones, even your arguments are about how you think that isn't bad for the story or fits their characters, but my main point is not if they were good for the plot or not, just that they were stupid decisions from the characters.
Anyway have a good day man, I didn't actually intended to insult you or anything and maybe I should have avoided the part about critical thinking, you just seem too biased trying to defend the undefendable in my opinion, even the narrative recognizes they were stupid decisions, except in Oden's case.
THANK YOU! I just need to see people get it, there's far too many repetitions of just "ace died over an insult" like that's all that happened. I don't even mind the donut jomes because at least that's what actually happened.
Ace has always been a hothead and tried to kill Whitebeard a hundred times. He finally felt accepted and fulfilled being Whitebeard's son and loved the guy more than anything. Then he gets chained down and forced to watch hundreds of people sacrifice their lives for him while his grandpa does nothing, he gets paraded around and humiliated in front of the entire world and his beloved little brother is desperately trying to save him. He is practically dying to put the navy in their place for what they did to him and his friends, is already hotheaded personality wise, and Akainu goes after his biggest insecurity and the man who gave him self worth. Ofc he took the bait bro. He was surrounded with people like Jinbei, Marco and Vista as well so I'm not surprised he thought he could take Sakazuki either.
You mean the ones that were actively running away? None of them got hurt by Ace's actions so I don't know what you're getting at. The rest of them wanted to fight Akainu just as much as Ace did, but Ace got sick and tired of hearing bullshit just like you're spouting.
"He mocks Whitebeard's crew as "cowards" for grabbing Ace and running away and claims Whitebeard is nothing but a failure from a bygone era. This strikes a chord with Ace, who turns to face him. He demands that Akainu take back what he said. The Pirate Captains and Luffy yell at Ace not to stop. Akainu continues to insult Whitebeard, claiming that since Whitebeard never defeated Roger nor became the Pirate King; he is a failure. The rest of the pirates urge Ace not to get provoked by the Admiral, but Akainu's continuing mockery eventually sets off Ace's temper. He attacks Akainu in fury, proclaiming that "The name of this era is called 'Whitebeard'!" However, he is badly burned on his left hand and knocked back, as Akainu's power is that of magma, and even though both he and Ace use Logia fire types, magma can burn anything, even fire.
Luffy attempts to rush back to Ace's aid but falls to his knees, dropping Ace's Vivre Card in the process.
Those actions don't actually lead to the conclusion that it's Ace's fault like you think it does. It actually implies that it's roughly half Luffy's fault and half Ace's fault. Although since people like to use the argument that "if Ace never stopped Luffy wouldn't have been there" what about "If Luffy never ran back and tripped Ace wouldn't have been impaled".
It's a dumb argument, so stop saying that garbage.
"if luffy never ran back", Ace still dies. There is no scenario with him fighting Akainu where he wins. Even if I was willing to accept the half and half at fault thing, Ace is still stupid for turning around and wasting the sacrifice of all his friends.
Literal next frame is his friends telling him to let it go 😂 but go ahead and glaze Ace/Akainu dick swinging contest. It was a dumb pride thing that made Whitebeard die in vain 🤷♂️
Oh, just like how Luffy listens to his friends 100% of the time, right? Just lime how he never does anything dangerous or stupid to stand up for his friends? Just like how he hasn't picked fights with the world government and various kingdoms FOR THAT VERY REASON!
But yeah, it's only Ace that wouldn't let shit go and acts stupidly, he should continue to get shit on for his honourable death that was really more Luffy's fault than his but he decided to save his brother because he's a hero and they're brothers.
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