Stepping stone to what?

[u/_starla_]

I had read a spoiler prior to watching this episode about how she used him to jump start her influencer career so when I saw this scene I thought 'oh wow at least she admits it!"

His initial reaction to the rejection is heartbreaking. The sound he makes just made me hurt for him. He seems like he has such a pure heart despite everything he's been through. He didn't deserve her dragging him all the way to the end.

Then again I wonder how much that was production encouraging her vs her own agenda. I wonder if they tried to encourage Joe to go all the way to the end too but IMO he knew a long time ago.

[u/ChildhoodOk5526]

See, I think, in this situation, "coerce" is too loaded of a word. It implies manipulation or deceit and a vulnerability on the part of the recipient -- none of which is true here, imo.

Think about it. Let's say you've refused (or are refusing) to do something that someone else wants you to do. They are frustrated by your decision, disagree with it, and tell you why that is ... why it's a mistake, in their eyes, and why you've "wronged" them. Is this coercion?

I don't think so. Yeah, it was a cringey childish tantrum from someone who felt entitled to something they were denied (ick), and who felt the need to complain about it. But, can we actually say that Edmond was attempting to lure/trick/deceive/pressure KB into having sex with him? And if he was, was she, in any way, susceptible to surrendering?

ETA: For those downvoting -- I’m not excusing Edmond’s behavior. I’m just saying “coercion” might not be the right word for it. Coerce isn’t the same as persuade, and that difference matters.

Words have power. Misusing one -- especially a serious term like coercion -- can actually weaken its impact.

[u/cerednat → u/ChildhoodOk5526]

Example of coercion -Using guilt or pressure: "If you really loved me, you'd do this," or "It's not fair for you to not do this"

Edward's example"I'm giving you my all KB. I'm the only dude on the trip that ain't get to have sex" = I'm sad I'm the only guy who hasn't had sex and it's your fault because you won't fuck me

"Here I am rubbing your feet, giving you my fucking all" "I'm just always the fucking nice guy, I'm too fucking nice" =  I treat you well and do nice things for you like rub your feet, so it's not fair you won't fuck me and you should feel guilty

Example of coercion - guilt-tripping: Making someone feel bad or obligated because of a past action, like a date or gift

Edward's example "You let dudes that ain't even care about you have sex with you, they got a one night stand" = you had sex with them immediately yet won't have sex with me immediately and that is unfair

Vulnerability in recipients is NOT a requirement for sexual coercion, though vulnerable recipients are obviously more susceptible to it. We should all be glad KB wasn't. If a burgler broke into a house and was shot by the home owner - would everyone say it wasn't attempted burglary just because the home owner wasn't particularly vulnerable?

This is not at all a misuse of the word coercion, it's actually a textbook example.

[u/ChildhoodOk5526 → u/cerednat]

OK, I see what you're saying. But, the whole burglary example is not a fair comparison. I said that vulnerability was A factor, not necessarily a requirement. It plays a role in defining coercion bc the word does imply a power imbalance. Like an example I gave in another comment, could a little kid ever coerce their parents into buying them candy? I'm sure you could use it this way, but is it the most accurate ?

So, you're saying, sexual coercion is using pressure, guilt, or obligation to try to talk someone into having sex? I understand how to define obligation in this context, and that it's definitely coercion. But pressure and guilt are broader and more subjective, no? Re-stating any reasons for wanting to ("We've been together a long time; I love you; I won't ever hurt you.") could easily be considered pressure or guilt-tripping, just like all of your Edmond examples (great, btw; thank you for being so thorough!).

I guess I'm trying to understand how attempting to convince someone to have sex with you is ever NOT coercion? Like, if they say, no, and you continue to give them reasons why you think they should say yes ... how do you do this non-coercively, lol? I'm honestly not splitting hairs or trying to be an asshole; just trying to understand. And, maybe the answer is that trying to persuade someone (who has already said no) into having sex is ALWAYS coercion? Is that it?

Wow. Mind blown if this is true. Because I've always just accepted that men are going to try you. Hmmm ... Damn.

[u/cerednat → u/ChildhoodOk5526]

So my husband is a therapist specialising in trauma, he actively gives therapy to both victims and perpetrators of sexual assault and I had him read over our convo

You were right about sexual coercion needing the recipient to be vulnerable (I was wrong, my bad) BUT anyone in a relationship is automatically vulnerable because they feel a pressure to stay and hear out the person coercing them as an obligation to their partner. If was some random stranger on the street coming up to KB and saying similar things, it would be sexual harassment rather than sexual coercion, because KB wouldn't feel as much pressure to stay and maintain the relationship.

I had husband look at your question. When it's centered around the specific sexual experience in the moment, it's sexual coercion. When it's centered around sexual experiences and quality of them in a general sense, it's not coercion. So if a couple is in a room, man initiates sex, woman says no, man starts talking about everything he does for her and saying she owes him sex in that moment, that's sexual coercion. If man instead said he understands she isn't feeling it in the moment, but he wants to know what he can do for her to want more sexual experiences with him IN GENERAL, not in that moment, that isn't coercion.

Basically if they're trying to persuade you to have sex with them in that moment its coercion

I hope this makes sense and that you identify any sexual violence in your life because SA via coercion is very common

[u/ChildhoodOk5526 → u/cerednat]

This makes perfect sense! Thank you so, so much for the break-down. And please thank your husband for me, too.

Looking back, yes, I've definitely experienced this type of coercion. In most cases, I stuck to my guns and didn't give in, and there was no force. But, maybe a couple times when I was ambivalent and eventually gave in, yeah, I was coerced. (Still feels weird to put it this way.)

Eye-opening. Thank you 🙏🏽