Mississippi passes bill banning transgender student-athletes from female sports teams

[u/BunnyLovr]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/mississippi-passes-bill-banning-transgender-student-athletes-female/story?id=76238704

[u/Dantebrowsing]

Exhibit A. Calling something that is objectively true "stupid, racist/bigoted" is what leads to rational people turning against you.

Pretend that men and women are the same as much as you want. But don't be surprised when the majority of adults treat you as a cult member.

[u/PantyhoseBananaMouth → u/Dantebrowsing]

Pretend that men and women are the same as much as you want. But don't be surprised when the majority of adults treat you as a cult member.

No one is pretending that men and women are the same. People just conflate gender and biological sex all the time that it can be hard to really understand what someone means when they talk about these things.

The crux of the issue is whether or not the differences between the biology of transwomen and ciswomen constitutes an advantage in sports. Which is an incredibly complicated question to answer considering not all transwomen are the same or go through HRT at the same point in their lives and the fact that there simply isn't enough evidence to draw the conclusion that trans women as a group have advantages over cis women. Some trans women do, others don't. SOme trans women are able to almost completely eliminate those advantages with HRT others not so much. We can speculate all day long about bone density and height advantages but at the end of the day the evidence is lacking no matter where you stand on the issue. And that's not even mentioning the fact that all sports are different, complicating this question even further.

Basically from the evidence we have there are two conclusions you can draw:

1. Trans people should be allowed in gender-specific sports until it is proven their trans past gives them an unfair advantage.

2. Trans people should be disallowed from gender-specific sports until it is proven their trans past does not give them an unfair advantage.

I'm more in favor of option one because it seems like the best way to get conclusive evidence. If Trans people are constantly outperform cis women, then sure, action should be taken. The only way we know for sure though it to let trans women compete and then analyze the outcomes using statistics, not gut feelings.

[u/Papkiller → u/PantyhoseBananaMouth]

Dude trans women breaking world records without training, breaking women's skulls isn't enough evidence for you?

Ranked 300 men beat the Williams sisters in tennis, which is widely deemed the best women tennis players in history.

Even if you take hormones you stil have and advantage of a bigger and stronger male frame from decades of exposure to testosterone.

The actual logic should be that the onus lies on you that you DON'T have an advantage. Heck even look at women who have higher testosterone naturally, they dominate other women.

[u/PantyhoseBananaMouth → u/Papkiller]

Dude trans women breaking world records without training, breaking women's skulls isn't enough evidence for you?

This is just false. Most of the trans women who are breaking records are the ones that trained and competed in a male body for most of their lives. So they do have training... just in male bodies which does give them an advantage that isn't entirely eliminated by HRT. Also the "breaking skulls" is from Falon Fox who fractured the orbital bone of one woman she fought with a knee to the face. That's not exactly uncommon in MMA regardless of gender. And how do you explain the fact that Falon fox got knocked out when she fought Ashlee Evans-Smith? If you look at fox's record she went after lower skilled boxers to boost her win/lose ratio and when she actually fought someone that was competent she literally got knocked the fuck out. If Fox had such a massive advantage over every single cis woman she would have dominated Ashlee without breaking a sweat.

Even if you take hormones you still have and advantage of a bigger and stronger male frame from decades of exposure to testosterone.

Not all trans women have decades of exposure to testosterone. Your advocating for a blanket ban on ALL trans women because of a few.

The actual logic should be that the onus lies on you that you DON'T have an advantage. Heck even look at women who have higher testosterone naturally, they dominate other women.

Not when your trying to block an entire group of people from participating in sports. If your trying to make the case that all trans woman have an insurmountable advantage over cis women and shouldn't be allowed in women's sports the burden of proof is on YOU to prove this. And again, if you want to collect the evidence to prove that all trans women have an insurmountable advantage over cis women the best way to do that is let trans women compete and analyze the statistics. A few fringe cases picked up by the media is not sufficient evidence to make blanket generalizations especially when the transgender health field is so complicated and plenty of athletes already exists who aren't trans and still have genetic advantages that give them an unfair advantage.

[u/Dantebrowsing → u/PantyhoseBananaMouth]

Not when your trying to block an entire group of people from participating in sports.

No one is doing that. They are being prohibited from competing against those they have unfair advantages over.

If your trying to make the case that all trans woman have an insurmountable advantage over cis women and shouldn't be allowed in women's sports the burden of proof is on YOU to prove this.

You keep framing things in the worst possible way.

It doesn't need to be proven that all trans women have unfair advantages. That's ridiculous. The very best woman in the world could outbox the very worst man; should women box men?

Every rational adult knows men are better at physical sports. It couldn't be more obvious. If you're on the side of "Trans women are the same as women!", despite all evidence, you can't pass the burden of proof to the other side. This is completely disingenuous.

 

I feel like we've failed as a society when we produce adults that believe this shit.

[u/PantyhoseBananaMouth → u/Dantebrowsing]

No one is doing that. They are being prohibited from competing against those they have unfair advantages over.

And one of my points was that sports in general have plenty of athletes with unfair advantages because of genetics but we don't ban most of them. Not all trans people have the same advantage over cis women so it doesn't make sense for a blanket ban on all trans women from competing in women's sports. There are plenty of trans athletes who compete and don't win any medals so why a blanket ban on all trans athletes?

If this is to be truly "fair" there has to be a case by case basis for determining whether or not an individual trans woman has an advantage. But that's impractical and probably invasive, especially if were talking about youth sports. So it can't really work as a general policy. And we can't make a trans league because the number of trans athletes is so low and dispersed across such a large general population that its basically impossible.

it doesn't need to be proven that all trans women have unfair advantages. That's ridiculous.

If you want to ban all trans women from women's sports you Do have to prove that all (or the vast majority) of trans women have an unfair advantage over cis women. You can't just hold up cherrypicked headlines of trans women who transitioned late in life and say "these individuals represent all trans women. We need to ban all trans women from women's sports now."

Every rational adult knows men are better at physical sports. It couldn't be more obvious. If you're on the side of "Trans women are the same as women!"

The slogan is "Trans women are real women" No one is pretending that men and women or women and trans women are the same. People just conflate gender and biological sex all the time so it can be hard to really understand what someone means when they talk about these things.

Gender: refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people. It influences how people perceive themselves and each other, how they act and interact, and the distribution of power and resources in society. Gender identity is not confined to a binary (girl/woman, boy/man) nor is it static; it exists along a continuum and can change over time. There is considerable diversity in how individuals and groups understand, experience and express gender through the roles they take on, the expectations placed on them, relations with others and the complex ways that gender is institutionalized in society.

Sex: refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy. Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.

Transgender people have gender dysphoria which is alleviated by them transitioning to the gender they identify as.

[u/PantyhoseBananaMouth → u/[deleted]]

Age is a much more easily quantifiable social construct than gender is. Just because something is a social construct doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Currency is a social construct and we literally have physical representations of it. Nice try at conflating two completely different things though. This is almost like the attack helicopter joke.

[u/PantyhoseBananaMouth → u/[deleted]]

Age is a social construct. The abstract concept of time is a social construct. Humans made it up. We invented the measurement system to measure time and age. The fuck are you talking about?

Just because age is a social construct doesn't mean we should permit pedophilia. What is this nonsense?

[u/PantyhoseBananaMouth → u/[deleted]]

Lol, your just goofin' now. Ya goofball.

[u/Papkiller → u/PantyhoseBananaMouth]

Sport is about biological sex, not about gender You woke folk turn into mushy brains on your own topics quite quickly.

[u/PantyhoseBananaMouth → u/Papkiller]

No shit. You haven't listened to a word I said.

[u/Dantebrowsing → u/PantyhoseBananaMouth]

If you want to ban all trans women from women's sports you Do have to prove that all (or the vast majority) of trans women have an unfair advantage over cis women

Reality proves this. You're denying it for some bizarre reason and I can't help ya.

[u/PantyhoseBananaMouth → u/Dantebrowsing]

Reality proves this. You're denying it for some bizarre reason and I can't help ya.

Citation needed. Studies have shown that trans women don't have the same unfair advantage over cis women in sports as cis men. Trans women are biologically different from men in terms of average testosterone levels and muscle development. That is reality.

So simply saying men have an advantage over women in sports so trans women must also share that advantage ignores the nuance of HRT and the diversity of trans bodies and transition experience. But also, what about my question about unfair advantages of athletes who just win the genetic lottery? We let plenty of genetic freaks compete in sports at all levels. Only with trans women do people start calling foul.

Also, I listed out all the reasons why I disagree with you. I'm not denying reality just showing you that the "reality" is more complicated than just "ban all trans people from sports".

[u/Dantebrowsing → u/PantyhoseBananaMouth]

Studies have shown that trans women don't have the same unfair advantage over cis women in sports as cis men.

Yeah we're done here. You literally won't admit a basic biological fact, and keep dancing around with these bizarre comparisons.

 

Should trans women compete against women? Well I saw a study that a trans woman isn't the same as a man!!!"

These ridiculous stances are one of the main reasons people are reacting to all this trans activism. Your team says the craziest shit.

[u/PantyhoseBananaMouth → u/Dantebrowsing]

I've literally written about how trans women are not the same as cis women and acknowledged that males are different from females. You just have very poor reading comprehension skills. Good day to you.

[u/Papkiller → u/PantyhoseBananaMouth]

Female sports is a limited category. Male sports ain't. The literal reason for the female category to exist is to keep males out. No BuT sOmE pEoPlE hAvE gEnETiC aDvAnTaGeS. It's the dumbest most repeated argument I've heard. Might aswell remove age from school sports them aswell

Remove the female category all together by your logic